K series engine- whats the truth?
Discussion
I do a fair bit of reading in the kit car section and on locostbuilders due to me owning a 7 replica (MNR).
The choice of engine is a popular topic, the k series engine being one of the engines in the mix.
I have heard all the head gasket stories, including a bloke who I used to work with who had a HG go on his elise.
Others say its a great engine which was way ahead of its time. I would love this to be true as I like to see british engineering on top of the game.
This article prompted my question-
http://www.aronline.co.uk/index.htm?essaykseriesf....
Whats the truth?
The choice of engine is a popular topic, the k series engine being one of the engines in the mix.
I have heard all the head gasket stories, including a bloke who I used to work with who had a HG go on his elise.
Others say its a great engine which was way ahead of its time. I would love this to be true as I like to see british engineering on top of the game.
This article prompted my question-
http://www.aronline.co.uk/index.htm?essaykseriesf....
Whats the truth?
It's a bit of both. In its day it was one of the lightest four cylinder car engines in the world. However, a catalogue of (relatively minor) minor design flaws, coupled with poor quality control and cost cutting in the manufacturing process, meant that the integrity of the head gasket seal was extremely vulnerable to sudden changes in temperature.
It could have been a great engine. It actually was a good engine with some significant flaws. It is now a decidedly out of date engine with some significant flaws.
It could have been a great engine. It actually was a good engine with some significant flaws. It is now a decidedly out of date engine with some significant flaws.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 4th March 20:15
According to one of my ex AA chums, the real issue with the K series was a tiny little plastic ball valve, in the water heated inlet manifold. After a few years the ball valve would stick, stopping the flow and eventually blowing the head gasket.
One silly little flaw apparently causing big issues for loads of people. Shame.
One silly little flaw apparently causing big issues for loads of people. Shame.
interloper said:
According to one of my ex AA chums, the real issue with the K series was a tiny little plastic ball valve, in the water heated inlet manifold. After a few years the ball valve would stick, stopping the flow and eventually blowing the head gasket.
One silly little flaw apparently causing big issues for loads of people. Shame.
As I understand it, that would be largely bOne silly little flaw apparently causing big issues for loads of people. Shame.
ks. There are quite a few elements of the K-series design which combine to make the head gasket such a common failure point. kambites said:
interloper said:
According to one of my ex AA chums, the real issue with the K series was a tiny little plastic ball valve, in the water heated inlet manifold. After a few years the ball valve would stick, stopping the flow and eventually blowing the head gasket.
One silly little flaw apparently causing big issues for loads of people. Shame.
As I understand it, that would be largely bOne silly little flaw apparently causing big issues for loads of people. Shame.
ks. There are quite a few elements of the K-series design which combine to make the head gasket such a common failure point. interloper said:
Doing a little digging it appears that the valve is or was at least one of the issues, certainly on the smaller K series. Popping the phrases "rover k series" and "ball valve" into google has brought up a couple of articles, hardly definitive but surely not something to be dismissed out of hand completely?
Oh I dare say it's a weakness, but the idea that fixing that one thing would have solved all the K-series head gasket failures is simply not true. Dr.Doofenshmirtz said:
It's overrated by Rover fans
A Toyota or Honda engine would be far superior.
Its not overrated, its the best engine EVER!.A Toyota or Honda engine would be far superior.
Well... that was a lie.
The truth from my experience is that it is a good engine with an impressive power figure for its weight and age. With the age point it will be very cheap and so would make it good for a low cost kit car.
However you will need to keep on top of the small problems or the dreaded head gasket WILL fail.
I was talking to a friend of mine who worked at Rover and he was explaining the limited cooling of the K series engine. This means that keeping on top of things like a dodgy water pump are essential.
Hope I helped,
Bob
thinfourth2 said:
Dr.Doofenshmirtz said:
It's overrated by Rover fans
A Toyota or Honda engine would be far superior.
And far heavier A Toyota or Honda engine would be far superior.
Maybe that is partly why the engine is so vulnerable to the dreaded HGF, just not enough metal to handle high temps. Well that, and a few well documented other reasons.
Seem to remember a list of potential reasons being:
Plastic dowels used as cost cutting measure but offer poor location
Thermostat design that allowed shock cold temp water to head
Poor quality gasket head gasket
Manufacturing problems that would lead to liner heights being set wrong
Low overall coolant capacity
Add to that, on the Elise in particular the radiator was liable to splitting its sides.
So yep, the HGF thing is certainly not a myth. What is true though is that many of the above were improved or rectified at certain stages in the K-Series production life so the newest engines are likely to be better. There were also quite a wide variety of vehicles the engine was installed in and some seem to be more reliable installations than others. Caterhams seem to fair better but then I guess their mileages tend to be low.
It is still a very light engine and can make very good power for its capacity and weight (Is the R500 engine still the highest ever N/A production bhp/litre figure?). One should also remember that HGF is relatively cheap to fix and if fixed properly could be a permanent fix.
In lightweight cars, particularly Sevens etc.. I actually don't think there is yet a better suited engine, though maybe some of the current Ford range are close.
BigBen said:
kambites said:
It is now a decidedly out of date engine with some significant flaws.
Not so sure it is out of date it still has impressive power to weight statistics and good torque. No denying the head gaskets are made of butter tho Edited by kambites on Thursday 4th March 20:15
Edited by kambites on Thursday 4th March 21:12
kambites said:
interloper said:
According to one of my ex AA chums, the real issue with the K series was a tiny little plastic ball valve, in the water heated inlet manifold. After a few years the ball valve would stick, stopping the flow and eventually blowing the head gasket.
One silly little flaw apparently causing big issues for loads of people. Shame.
As I understand it, that would be largely bOne silly little flaw apparently causing big issues for loads of people. Shame.
ks. There are quite a few elements of the K-series design which combine to make the head gasket such a common failure point. Fudamentaly unstable engine to many flaws and tales of woe to bore you with.
Only fix is latest reinforced bottom end bearing and crank rail (sorry dont know the correct terminology) with more stability circa 1300 pounds but does fix them....shame because was better than the Ford of the same era.
quote here
Land Rover have redesigned the K series 1.8 head gasket and upgraded the lower rail that the head bolts screw into.
The head gasket has lost it's elastomeric beads and now has a laminated type of construction and the lower rail is beefed up - it must have an effect upon the clamping load. Head torque figures remain unchanged.
Picture three shows the very thin metal coated shim that is fitted on top of the headgasket
Attached Images gasket.jpg (94.4 KB, 2656 views)
rail.jpg (94.0 KB, 2363 views)
shim.jpg (90.1 KB, 2389 views)
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Last edited by Dr Dave; 31-01-2006 at 19:33.
linky
http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=110090
Edited by gary11 on Thursday 4th March 21:27
Many of the head gasket failures have been in rear engined installations. This is because the original cooling system had the thermostat on the inlet side of the water system, ie it works according to the temp of the water going into the engine, rather than coming out. The second biggest collection of failures was in Freelanders, but I’ve no idea why.
This arrangement in cars where the engine was a long way away from the radiator could lead to a series of thermal shocks to the head as the radiator water could be so much cooler than the engine when the stat opens.
If you couple this with the plastic dowels in pre MEMS 3 engines, then you have a failure waiting to happen so to speak.
However; in well thought out installations, where the user NEVER used high revs until the engine was well up to temp, and NEVER let the coolant disappear, then HGF was fairly rare.
In the North/south installation like the se7en, using a sensible thermostat arrangement, and following the rules above, I’d expect a K series engine to last extremely well. Considering what they are used for, Ks in se7ens don’t have a bad failure record.
And in terms of bang per kilo, they are bloody good.
This arrangement in cars where the engine was a long way away from the radiator could lead to a series of thermal shocks to the head as the radiator water could be so much cooler than the engine when the stat opens.
If you couple this with the plastic dowels in pre MEMS 3 engines, then you have a failure waiting to happen so to speak.
However; in well thought out installations, where the user NEVER used high revs until the engine was well up to temp, and NEVER let the coolant disappear, then HGF was fairly rare.
In the North/south installation like the se7en, using a sensible thermostat arrangement, and following the rules above, I’d expect a K series engine to last extremely well. Considering what they are used for, Ks in se7ens don’t have a bad failure record.
And in terms of bang per kilo, they are bloody good.
We reverse engineered a K series at University a couple of years ago. For the application your proposing there is little out there that will touch a nicely set up K. I believe the power to weight still outstrips anything Honda produces. Also in response to the poster above, Freelanders are prone due to the load all it's extra weight and 4x4 system puts on the engine. Weight isn't going to be an issue with a 7 rep so that alongside the aformentioned Land Rover gasket kit should see a fairly reliable engine.
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