Starting a Bus Company - what's involved?
Discussion
This is more a general wondering than a statement of intent, but as the buses where I live are monopolised and crap, I often wonder why someone doesn't start up a decent competition outfit.
What would be involved and what approximate costs would a person be looking at? I imaging you'd need public liability, PCV license, premises, one maybe two old buses which you could pick up for about £6k each, and then you'd need a full time mechanic maybe and some drivers?
What would be involved and what approximate costs would a person be looking at? I imaging you'd need public liability, PCV license, premises, one maybe two old buses which you could pick up for about £6k each, and then you'd need a full time mechanic maybe and some drivers?
Assuming the council would grant you licences and planning to build new bus stops (unless your competitors didn't mind you using theirs), you would need to honour the timetable - even if there was nobody using the service, have provision for when the bus breaks down, identify a suitable area for terminus at the end of each route and demonstrate that you have the financial foundation to operate the service for a set period of time.
The biggest financial headache is the Operators Licence. You need one O-licence per vehicle, and a financial commitment for each one to demonstrate you are of sound financial standing (around £5k per vehicle if I remember correctly).
You will also need to put yourself through the Operator's CPC in order to hold a PSV O-licence.
You will need a depot to operate from, with an inspection pit and full mechanical facilities for maintaining commercial vehicles, along with a mechanic or two. The vehicles themselves depend entirely on what work you intend on doing. Remember for council contracted work much of it has restrictions on vehicle age. Also, in 2016 you will need to have low-floor easy access vehicles, which aren't as cheap. Check out places like Stafford Bus Centre and Ensign Bus for prices on s/hand vehicles. You also need to consider what make to go for - Dennis are cheap, but they are cheap for a reason. Volvo hold value better, but they will repay it in reliability.
I'll have a think about it and write up a proper reply when I get chance, but the short answer is this: lots of capital needed, and lots of hoops/paperwork to fill in.
You will also need to put yourself through the Operator's CPC in order to hold a PSV O-licence.
You will need a depot to operate from, with an inspection pit and full mechanical facilities for maintaining commercial vehicles, along with a mechanic or two. The vehicles themselves depend entirely on what work you intend on doing. Remember for council contracted work much of it has restrictions on vehicle age. Also, in 2016 you will need to have low-floor easy access vehicles, which aren't as cheap. Check out places like Stafford Bus Centre and Ensign Bus for prices on s/hand vehicles. You also need to consider what make to go for - Dennis are cheap, but they are cheap for a reason. Volvo hold value better, but they will repay it in reliability.
I'll have a think about it and write up a proper reply when I get chance, but the short answer is this: lots of capital needed, and lots of hoops/paperwork to fill in.
My god, given the barriers of entry to some industries the world has changed for ever. How does the average bus/coach driver make a leap to buying their own vehicle and going it alone.
It feels that if you are not a big business now, you can pretty much about forget about making it big.
It feels that if you are not a big business now, you can pretty much about forget about making it big.
davidjpowell said:
My god, given the barriers of entry to some industries the world has changed for ever. How does the average bus/coach driver make a leap to buying their own vehicle and going it alone.
It feels that if you are not a big business now, you can pretty much about forget about making it big.
On the other hand, in the modern day, no end of people would complain if the service wasn't running as the driver was sick/bus was broken down, etc because he was a one man band.It feels that if you are not a big business now, you can pretty much about forget about making it big.
Likewise with safety. Bigger isn't better, but you are likely to have a trained maintenance crew and repairs programme and teh cash flow to support it.
Things have changed, but then so has consumer expectation.
I live in Leeds where stops are built/maintained by the local transport authority, so building stops isn't an issue.
It sounds like there is a huge amount of red tape involved, and I'd hazard a guess that you'd need £50k - £100k to start up a 2 bus operation by the sounds of it.
If it was me personally, I'd run the main student route, but then you need to take into account that it is also the slowest moving in Leeds with rush hour traffic, and the big company can compensate that with running extra buses whereas the smaller operator cannot, I would think?
What MPG do the single decker Dennis and Volvo buses do on average and what sort of service schedules do they have? I'm often surprised byt the state of some of the buses I use (car is currently off the road
) and you can hear/feel all manner of knocking and clunking from the worn out suspension.
Fares are ridiculous. It is actually cheaper for me to drive the 12 miles a day round trip than it is to use a bus with a weekly ticket just short of £20.
It sounds like there is a huge amount of red tape involved, and I'd hazard a guess that you'd need £50k - £100k to start up a 2 bus operation by the sounds of it.
If it was me personally, I'd run the main student route, but then you need to take into account that it is also the slowest moving in Leeds with rush hour traffic, and the big company can compensate that with running extra buses whereas the smaller operator cannot, I would think?
What MPG do the single decker Dennis and Volvo buses do on average and what sort of service schedules do they have? I'm often surprised byt the state of some of the buses I use (car is currently off the road
) and you can hear/feel all manner of knocking and clunking from the worn out suspension. Fares are ridiculous. It is actually cheaper for me to drive the 12 miles a day round trip than it is to use a bus with a weekly ticket just short of £20.
davidjpowell said:
My god, given the barriers of entry to some industries the world has changed for ever. How does the average bus/coach driver make a leap to buying their own vehicle and going it alone.
It feels that if you are not a big business now, you can pretty much about forget about making it big.
Because on your own you would probably set up in the Coach business than an owner operator bus service, a bus timetable with only one bus on the route would be sIt feels that if you are not a big business now, you can pretty much about forget about making it big.
t to the point no one would use it.BlueTwo2 said:
I live in Leeds where stops are built/maintained by the local transport authority, so building stops isn't an issue.
It sounds like there is a huge amount of red tape involved, and I'd hazard a guess that you'd need £50k - £100k to start up a 2 bus operation by the sounds of it.
If it was me personally, I'd run the main student route, but then you need to take into account that it is also the slowest moving in Leeds with rush hour traffic, and the big company can compensate that with running extra buses whereas the smaller operator cannot, I would think?
What MPG do the single decker Dennis and Volvo buses do on average and what sort of service schedules do they have? I'm often surprised byt the state of some of the buses I use (car is currently off the road ) and you can hear/feel all manner of knocking and clunking from the worn out suspension.
Fares are ridiculous. It is actually cheaper for me to drive the 12 miles a day round trip than it is to use a bus with a weekly ticket just short of £20.
There is colossal amounts of red tape/paperwork. You also have to keep all records for a certain amount of time (6 years if I remember correctly), which requires storage space and a decent filing system. It sounds like there is a huge amount of red tape involved, and I'd hazard a guess that you'd need £50k - £100k to start up a 2 bus operation by the sounds of it.
If it was me personally, I'd run the main student route, but then you need to take into account that it is also the slowest moving in Leeds with rush hour traffic, and the big company can compensate that with running extra buses whereas the smaller operator cannot, I would think?
What MPG do the single decker Dennis and Volvo buses do on average and what sort of service schedules do they have? I'm often surprised byt the state of some of the buses I use (car is currently off the road
) and you can hear/feel all manner of knocking and clunking from the worn out suspension. Fares are ridiculous. It is actually cheaper for me to drive the 12 miles a day round trip than it is to use a bus with a weekly ticket just short of £20.
As an example, the driver's walk round check - MUST be done for each vehicle before the vehicle leaves the yard, and any defect noted could have the potential to have the bus off the road until repaired. This is a legal document and can be requested for inspection by roadside traffic police, VOSA, and the courts.
There is much more, including keeping records of all driver's worked hours, mileage lost due to breakdowns/accidents, keeping records of all routes and timetables (each driver must carry a copy of the timetable for the route they are on and a copy of the fare chart) organising each driver's working week and giving them a copy to have for the week (each driver must also keep a record of the work done in the previous 28 days on them for inspection by VOSA if need be) and then if your route goes over 31 miles, you have to start looking at tachograph regulations. Under 31 route miles comes under GB 'Domestic' driving rules, which are very different to EU (tachograph) rules. They also have complications for when drivers have to switch between both types.
As for vehicles, you really need to know what you are looking at. Bear in mind you will need 3 vehicles to cover a 2 vehicle operation (2 for service, one as standby/maintenance rotation). Sub £10k, you're looking at 12+ years old, which means lots of variety, but some real moneypits that need avoiding. Avoid anything that is rare - as an example a previous company I worked for bought 3 Neoplan N4016 Low-Floor buses from Arriva in Liverpool very cheap. They were cheap because they'd spent 16 years being thrashed around Liverpool city centre and also because they were the last of their type in existence. Consequently, getting parts for them has almost always ended up with the part being made to order, or adapted from something else as secondhand parts don't exist. On the other hand, a Volvo B10M or B10B (M = mid-engined, B = rear engined) is a doddle to get parts for due to the sheer amount of the things built and still in service, as well as good support from Volvo.
A chassis may also have different engine options - You might be looking at a Leyland Olympian decker for example, but it could have Gardner, Cummins or Leyland engines fitted, along with either a ZF, Voith or Leyland gearbox.
It's not just the chassis, you need to consider the body - many buses are built as a chassis and then shipped off to whoever is the buyer's preferred supplier of bodywork. If your bus has a common chassis but a rare body you'll still have a struggle to get bits. Bodies by Alexander, Plaxton, Northern Counties and East Lancs Coachworks are common, though I don't rate the ELC bodies.
Still, I digress. Fuel economy is usually anywhere around the 6-11 mpg area. Servicing isn't like a car, a PSV must be inspected every 4 weeks (6 weeks in certain circumstances) and the inspection is basically an MoT without the certificate. Written records must be kept of each inspection and the inspection must be made by a qualified mechanic. Oil changes and the like are as dictated by the manufacturer. Bear in mind that if you have a bus that covers around 900-1000 miles a week (rough average of 150 miles a day) then it'll probably require an oil change every 8 weeks. Wear and tear is quite heavy on most buses, bushes, tyres, brake shoes/drums and alternator belts being the main consumables. On the subject of tyres, they cost (for a 275/70/22.5) anywhere between £250 for a budget and £400+ for something like a Michelin. However they can be re-cut a further 3mm once they are worn down to 1mm (different rules for PSV tyres).
As a rough guide, here's the operating costs of a route local to me, that uses a pair of Mercedes 27-seat minibuses:
Fuel: £700 per week (both vehicles)
Driver's wages: £1256 - 165 hours @ £7.60 p/h (3 drivers working 55hr/6 day weeks)
Mechanics time: £40-50 - 4-5hours per week, though this is averaged down from monthly vehicle downtime
VED: £40 per month (both vehicles)
Total: £2,046 per week, without depot costs, parts costs, even silly stuff like ticket rolls, antifreeze, oil, bulbs, etc.
On top of this, you also have drivers to keep. You must provide 35 hours training every five years (normally through an approved provider) to keep their CPC valid. Whilst it is not a legal requirement for the operator to provide and organise the training, you will find that your drivers will simply move away to a company that will provide it, which is practically every company in the UK. It is your responsibility to make sure they do not drive over their maximum hours, and to ensure breaks and rest periods are observed - the penalties for ignoring these laws can go as far as removing your O-licence, which is also something VOSA can do if you are repeatedly stopped and found to be running defective vehicles (covered by prohibition orders/PG9's).
This of course is before we have even started to scratch the surface of whether you can actually compete on your chosen route and turn a profit.
On the subject of maintenance, sadly many big bus companies pay their engineering managers by giving them bonuses for not using the whole maintenance budget - basically, there is no incentive to spend money maintaining a bus any further than the bare minimum. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Engineer1 said:
davidjpowell said:
My god, given the barriers of entry to some industries the world has changed for ever. How does the average bus/coach driver make a leap to buying their own vehicle and going it alone.
It feels that if you are not a big business now, you can pretty much about forget about making it big.
Because on your own you would probably set up in the Coach business than an owner operator bus service, a bus timetable with only one bus on the route would be sIt feels that if you are not a big business now, you can pretty much about forget about making it big.
t to the point no one would use it.GTO Scott said:
BlueTwo2 said:
I live in Leeds where stops are built/maintained by the local transport authority, so building stops isn't an issue.
It sounds like there is a huge amount of red tape involved, and I'd hazard a guess that you'd need £50k - £100k to start up a 2 bus operation by the sounds of it.
If it was me personally, I'd run the main student route, but then you need to take into account that it is also the slowest moving in Leeds with rush hour traffic, and the big company can compensate that with running extra buses whereas the smaller operator cannot, I would think?
What MPG do the single decker Dennis and Volvo buses do on average and what sort of service schedules do they have? I'm often surprised byt the state of some of the buses I use (car is currently off the road ) and you can hear/feel all manner of knocking and clunking from the worn out suspension.
Fares are ridiculous. It is actually cheaper for me to drive the 12 miles a day round trip than it is to use a bus with a weekly ticket just short of £20.
There is colossal amounts of red tape/paperwork. You also have to keep all records for a certain amount of time (6 years if I remember correctly), which requires storage space and a decent filing system. It sounds like there is a huge amount of red tape involved, and I'd hazard a guess that you'd need £50k - £100k to start up a 2 bus operation by the sounds of it.
If it was me personally, I'd run the main student route, but then you need to take into account that it is also the slowest moving in Leeds with rush hour traffic, and the big company can compensate that with running extra buses whereas the smaller operator cannot, I would think?
What MPG do the single decker Dennis and Volvo buses do on average and what sort of service schedules do they have? I'm often surprised byt the state of some of the buses I use (car is currently off the road
) and you can hear/feel all manner of knocking and clunking from the worn out suspension. Fares are ridiculous. It is actually cheaper for me to drive the 12 miles a day round trip than it is to use a bus with a weekly ticket just short of £20.
As an example, the driver's walk round check - MUST be done for each vehicle before the vehicle leaves the yard, and any defect noted could have the potential to have the bus off the road until repaired. This is a legal document and can be requested for inspection by roadside traffic police, VOSA, and the courts.
There is much more, including keeping records of all driver's worked hours, mileage lost due to breakdowns/accidents, keeping records of all routes and timetables (each driver must carry a copy of the timetable for the route they are on and a copy of the fare chart) organising each driver's working week and giving them a copy to have for the week (each driver must also keep a record of the work done in the previous 28 days on them for inspection by VOSA if need be) and then if your route goes over 31 miles, you have to start looking at tachograph regulations. Under 31 route miles comes under GB 'Domestic' driving rules, which are very different to EU (tachograph) rules. They also have complications for when drivers have to switch between both types.
As for vehicles, you really need to know what you are looking at. Bear in mind you will need 3 vehicles to cover a 2 vehicle operation (2 for service, one as standby/maintenance rotation). Sub £10k, you're looking at 12+ years old, which means lots of variety, but some real moneypits that need avoiding. Avoid anything that is rare - as an example a previous company I worked for bought 3 Neoplan N4016 Low-Floor buses from Arriva in Liverpool very cheap. They were cheap because they'd spent 16 years being thrashed around Liverpool city centre and also because they were the last of their type in existence. Consequently, getting parts for them has almost always ended up with the part being made to order, or adapted from something else as secondhand parts don't exist. On the other hand, a Volvo B10M or B10B (M = mid-engined, B = rear engined) is a doddle to get parts for due to the sheer amount of the things built and still in service, as well as good support from Volvo.
A chassis may also have different engine options - You might be looking at a Leyland Olympian decker for example, but it could have Gardner, Cummins or Leyland engines fitted, along with either a ZF, Voith or Leyland gearbox.
It's not just the chassis, you need to consider the body - many buses are built as a chassis and then shipped off to whoever is the buyer's preferred supplier of bodywork. If your bus has a common chassis but a rare body you'll still have a struggle to get bits. Bodies by Alexander, Plaxton, Northern Counties and East Lancs Coachworks are common, though I don't rate the ELC bodies.
Still, I digress. Fuel economy is usually anywhere around the 6-11 mpg area. Servicing isn't like a car, a PSV must be inspected every 4 weeks (6 weeks in certain circumstances) and the inspection is basically an MoT without the certificate. Written records must be kept of each inspection and the inspection must be made by a qualified mechanic. Oil changes and the like are as dictated by the manufacturer. Bear in mind that if you have a bus that covers around 900-1000 miles a week (rough average of 150 miles a day) then it'll probably require an oil change every 8 weeks. Wear and tear is quite heavy on most buses, bushes, tyres, brake shoes/drums and alternator belts being the main consumables. On the subject of tyres, they cost (for a 275/70/22.5) anywhere between £250 for a budget and £400+ for something like a Michelin. However they can be re-cut a further 3mm once they are worn down to 1mm (different rules for PSV tyres).
As a rough guide, here's the operating costs of a route local to me, that uses a pair of Mercedes 27-seat minibuses:
Fuel: £700 per week (both vehicles)
Driver's wages: £1256 - 165 hours @ £7.60 p/h (3 drivers working 55hr/6 day weeks)
Mechanics time: £40-50 - 4-5hours per week, though this is averaged down from monthly vehicle downtime
VED: £40 per month (both vehicles)
Total: £2,046 per week, without depot costs, parts costs, even silly stuff like ticket rolls, antifreeze, oil, bulbs, etc.
On top of this, you also have drivers to keep. You must provide 35 hours training every five years (normally through an approved provider) to keep their CPC valid. Whilst it is not a legal requirement for the operator to provide and organise the training, you will find that your drivers will simply move away to a company that will provide it, which is practically every company in the UK. It is your responsibility to make sure they do not drive over their maximum hours, and to ensure breaks and rest periods are observed - the penalties for ignoring these laws can go as far as removing your O-licence, which is also something VOSA can do if you are repeatedly stopped and found to be running defective vehicles (covered by prohibition orders/PG9's).
This of course is before we have even started to scratch the surface of whether you can actually compete on your chosen route and turn a profit.
On the subject of maintenance, sadly many big bus companies pay their engineering managers by giving them bonuses for not using the whole maintenance budget - basically, there is no incentive to spend money maintaining a bus any further than the bare minimum. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I had this exact idea about 8 years ago and everyone told me it was never going to happen
Since then a bus company has started up and seems to be doing OK, we did have a bus war around here as well but it seems to have died out.
Having said that I think the manager of the small bus company was a former employee of the bigger established bus company so knew what he was doing.
Since then a bus company has started up and seems to be doing OK, we did have a bus war around here as well but it seems to have died out.
Having said that I think the manager of the small bus company was a former employee of the bigger established bus company so knew what he was doing.
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