VX red top and Ford Type 9 gearbox help please
Discussion
I am considering mating a 5 speed Ford 'type 9' gearbox with a 2.0l 16 valve Vauxhall 'red top' engine putting out about 225bhp.
Does anyone know if the gearbox is up to this sort of power or will I be breaking them for a past time?
Is the box compatible or are there a lot of potential problems to overcome?
Will an XR4i to red top bellhousing be suitable or is it different?
Many thanks as usual for any help you can offer.
Michael
Does anyone know if the gearbox is up to this sort of power or will I be breaking them for a past time?
Is the box compatible or are there a lot of potential problems to overcome?
Will an XR4i to red top bellhousing be suitable or is it different?
Many thanks as usual for any help you can offer.
Michael
You don't say what ou're putting it in. If it's a light car, a good condition type 9 should be ok. There are 2 variants of the type 9, the first being from Capris and Sierras (most common) and the second being from 2.8 Capris and the XR4X4 / XR4i. The 2.8 box has a longer input shaft so will not work with the ordinary bellhousing.
Bellhousings are commonly avaiable from SB Developments, Yukspeed, and several others. If you read the gearbox section here...
http://www.sbdev.co.uk/History_files/History_XEBea...
...it states the 2.8 version needs the input shaft shortening by 12mm - nightmare.
I put a red top + t9 box from a Sierra into a Westfield which was worth about 180 horses and had no problems whatsoever.
If you need any further help, feel free to ask!
Bellhousings are commonly avaiable from SB Developments, Yukspeed, and several others. If you read the gearbox section here...
http://www.sbdev.co.uk/History_files/History_XEBea...
...it states the 2.8 version needs the input shaft shortening by 12mm - nightmare.
I put a red top + t9 box from a Sierra into a Westfield which was worth about 180 horses and had no problems whatsoever.
If you need any further help, feel free to ask!
A few of the TVR Tasmin racers used the type 9 Gearbox coupled with ford V6's running less power than your redtop. They found the type 9 to be fragile and needed regular repairs / replacement. Most of them use the T5 these days which has proved to be a much better box in that application. May be ok for road use though?
"power" doesn't directly break gearboxes. Torque does, so an engine making 225bhp at 7500rpm is going to have a very different gearbox durability requirement to one making 225bhp at 5000rpm.
High torque results in high tooth loads, but probably more significant is the axial thrust and radial shaft loading increase. As soon as the gears deform too far, the tooth meshing goes to pot, and the leads to a rapid failure.
High power = heat, so on a low torque engine you can still put a lot of power through a gearbox, assuming that you remove the heat. (heat = oil degredation (and reduced film thickness) = accelerated tooth and bearing wear). Fitting an oil cooling system (elec pump + cooler) to a transmission will enable it to take a huge power increase without failure.
A large capacity V6 making 225 bhp will certainly result in a shorter transmission life than a higher reving S4 with 225 bhp (probably 300Nm vs 210Nm).
Also, during racing where the shift times are always short, the syncro pack will be getting more loading, and the engines rotation inertia becomes important. Again, a small high reving 4 cyl engine will have a significantly lower inertia than say a V6.
Off the top of my head i have no idea what the highest torque engine ever fitted by Ford to a Type 9 tranny was (someone will be along in a mo to tell us i'm sure!) but just by looking at the rough size of the thing i suspect that the torque limit would be around 220-240Nm
High torque results in high tooth loads, but probably more significant is the axial thrust and radial shaft loading increase. As soon as the gears deform too far, the tooth meshing goes to pot, and the leads to a rapid failure.
High power = heat, so on a low torque engine you can still put a lot of power through a gearbox, assuming that you remove the heat. (heat = oil degredation (and reduced film thickness) = accelerated tooth and bearing wear). Fitting an oil cooling system (elec pump + cooler) to a transmission will enable it to take a huge power increase without failure.
A large capacity V6 making 225 bhp will certainly result in a shorter transmission life than a higher reving S4 with 225 bhp (probably 300Nm vs 210Nm).
Also, during racing where the shift times are always short, the syncro pack will be getting more loading, and the engines rotation inertia becomes important. Again, a small high reving 4 cyl engine will have a significantly lower inertia than say a V6.
Off the top of my head i have no idea what the highest torque engine ever fitted by Ford to a Type 9 tranny was (someone will be along in a mo to tell us i'm sure!) but just by looking at the rough size of the thing i suspect that the torque limit would be around 220-240Nm
you could try the box, ive built a c20let for a mates kadett c and with the gas that was around 330-340bhp and running a 1.8s manta gearbox...rumoured to be only good for 180bhp, but it took the abuse my mate gave it. ideally id be looking at a quaife built type 9, would of thought t5 is too big and do the t5s have removeable bell housings or not?
NTEL said:
A few of the TVR Tasmin racers used the type 9 Gearbox coupled with ford V6's running less power than your redtop. They found the type 9 to be fragile and needed regular repairs / replacement. Most of them use the T5 these days which has proved to be a much better box in that application. May be ok for road use though?
Will I shoehorn a T5 into a Caterham 7 behind the Red Top? Is there a bellhousing available to marry the two?By the way: Thanks all for your inputs
Michael
KAR 120C said:
Will I shoehorn a T5 into a Caterham 7 behind the Red Top? Is there a bellhousing available to marry the two?
By the way: Thanks all for your inputs
Michael
Not sure if it will all fit in a Cateram 7, but there is a bell housing available here:By the way: Thanks all for your inputs
Michael
http://www.rwdmotorsport.com/Bellhousings/Vauxhall...
NotNormal said:
If you don't want to go down the road of using a adaptor plates for ford boxes just use the 2L or V6 GM/Vaux boxes from the range of Carlton (manual clutch release) or Omega (hydraulic clutch) models.
Will the VX gearboxes fit a 7? What about gear ratios and power through the box?I have jst spoken with CC and they tell me they only ever supplied the T9. They do not think the T5 will fit. Are the VX boxes any larger than a T9?
Thanks as always
Michael
Well i've fitted and run a R28 from the 3L V6 Omega in a Dax Rush (which admittadly has a tad more room than most). The R25/R28's have a number of different ratio's and a bit of googling should bring them all up for you.
The boxes are pretty light in overall weight and not as long as the T9 but width I guess is the info your after. In regards to strength, we'll i'm running 400bhp and similar torque via turbo unit and its been fine. If it goes bang I understand there's an R30 thats a possible but we'll worry about that if it happens...
The boxes are pretty light in overall weight and not as long as the T9 but width I guess is the info your after. In regards to strength, we'll i'm running 400bhp and similar torque via turbo unit and its been fine. If it goes bang I understand there's an R30 thats a possible but we'll worry about that if it happens...
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