Employment Law - Change of Working Hours - Advice Required
Discussion
Hi all,
Just wondered if there are any employment law specialists on here that can confirm something for me.
My MiL works for Sodexo, and has been at the same place for 18 years. They are trying to press her into a change of her working hours, including working evenings and weekends. She currently works 6:30am-3:00pm.
Am I right in saying that unless both parties agree to this they cannot just change her hours? She definitely does not want to change her hours and they are now threatening her with legal action if she does not agree!
We have requested a copy of her contract but they are being quite obstructive, we do not believe there are any flexible hour conditions etc in there.
Does anyone have any advice? I've suggested she speaks to CAB and/or ACAS, but she doesn't understand this sort of thing and is getting very upset about it so just want to be able to (hopefully) put her mind at ease a little.
I appreciate in advance any help anyone is able to offer.
Jack
Just wondered if there are any employment law specialists on here that can confirm something for me.
My MiL works for Sodexo, and has been at the same place for 18 years. They are trying to press her into a change of her working hours, including working evenings and weekends. She currently works 6:30am-3:00pm.
Am I right in saying that unless both parties agree to this they cannot just change her hours? She definitely does not want to change her hours and they are now threatening her with legal action if she does not agree!
We have requested a copy of her contract but they are being quite obstructive, we do not believe there are any flexible hour conditions etc in there.
Does anyone have any advice? I've suggested she speaks to CAB and/or ACAS, but she doesn't understand this sort of thing and is getting very upset about it so just want to be able to (hopefully) put her mind at ease a little.
I appreciate in advance any help anyone is able to offer.
Jack
There's usually a business reason for changing her hours like this - does she know what this is? You would normally give someone about 12 weeks notice of a major change in T&Cs like this.
Worst case, they could probably dismiss her on 'some other substantial reason' and immediately offer to re-appoint her to the new hours.
Worst case, they could probably dismiss her on 'some other substantial reason' and immediately offer to re-appoint her to the new hours.
c8bof said:
There's usually a business reason for changing her hours like this - does she know what this is? You would normally give someone about 12 weeks notice of a major change in T&Cs like this.
Worst case, they could probably dismiss her on 'some other substantial reason' and immediately offer to re-appoint her to the new hours.
no worst case is they dismiss her for frustrating her contract ... Worst case, they could probably dismiss her on 'some other substantial reason' and immediately offer to re-appoint her to the new hours.
is the OP sure that the contract is specific in the hours of work, or is it just 'custom and practice' that certain people work certain patterns ( i.e. the difference between 'Night Staff' and 'Staff who work nights all time' )
alternatively has the workplace had a change in circumstances that means news hours or changesin patterns are needed
Given it seems to be a substantial change in hours, they'd have to make her redundant and re-hire if she won't agree to the new contract. That's going to cost a fair chunk of change for someone with 18 years service.
I'm not sure what sort of legal action they are threatening, but there's not a lot they can do other than terminating her contract.
I'm not sure what sort of legal action they are threatening, but there's not a lot they can do other than terminating her contract.
My SiL works for Royal Mail. A decision was very recently made outside his office to change the starting time of his posties from 05:30 to 07:30 (meaning, of course and in passing, that local deliveries will be delayed by two hours). This change was occasioned by the delivery from the main sorting office arriving later and later over the past couple of years, due largely to employee and management apathy at the sorting office, and the drivers taking a breakfast break on the way.
The posties were up in arms. A two-hour delay to their starting time meant finishing two hours later. This would adversely affect their family life and their income, for example, they would no longer be able to pick up children from school - requiring either a child-minder to do so, or their spouse (who - usually - works) to quit work to do so; those with a second job would be unable to get to it on time.
They were told "take it or leave". The union made a noises about employment law and the ECHR, but did nothing.
As it is, the posties sorted it out among themselves, but it will likely add to the overtime bill.
Streaky
The posties were up in arms. A two-hour delay to their starting time meant finishing two hours later. This would adversely affect their family life and their income, for example, they would no longer be able to pick up children from school - requiring either a child-minder to do so, or their spouse (who - usually - works) to quit work to do so; those with a second job would be unable to get to it on time.
They were told "take it or leave". The union made a noises about employment law and the ECHR, but did nothing.
As it is, the posties sorted it out among themselves, but it will likely add to the overtime bill.
Streaky
cb8of's advice is accurate. The advice in the two following posts is not. If an employer can demonstrate a compelling business reason for a change, it may be able to justify a change to employment terms, and defend the dismissal of an employee who will not accept the new terms. Noether frustration nor redundancy arise in the scenario described above.
Why are they changing the hours? I suspect it might be "change the hours because otherwise we have to make people redundant" - if this is the case then the business can do so with reasonable notice. If it is just "we quite fancy changing the hours" then it won't wash with an ET as a unilateral change in the contract of employment.
So what are the reasons?
So what are the reasons?
Jacko 325 said:
Hi all,
Just wondered if there are any employment law specialists on here that can confirm something for me.
My MiL works for Sodexo, and has been at the same place for 18 years. They are trying to press her into a change of her working hours, including working evenings and weekends. She currently works 6:30am-3:00pm.
Am I right in saying that unless both parties agree to this they cannot just change her hours? She definitely does not want to change her hours and they are now threatening her with legal action if she does not agree!
We have requested a copy of her contract but they are being quite obstructive, we do not believe there are any flexible hour conditions etc in there.
Does anyone have any advice? I've suggested she speaks to CAB and/or ACAS, but she doesn't understand this sort of thing and is getting very upset about it so just want to be able to (hopefully) put her mind at ease a little.
I appreciate in advance any help anyone is able to offer.
Jack
From a legal perspective ...Just wondered if there are any employment law specialists on here that can confirm something for me.
My MiL works for Sodexo, and has been at the same place for 18 years. They are trying to press her into a change of her working hours, including working evenings and weekends. She currently works 6:30am-3:00pm.
Am I right in saying that unless both parties agree to this they cannot just change her hours? She definitely does not want to change her hours and they are now threatening her with legal action if she does not agree!
We have requested a copy of her contract but they are being quite obstructive, we do not believe there are any flexible hour conditions etc in there.
Does anyone have any advice? I've suggested she speaks to CAB and/or ACAS, but she doesn't understand this sort of thing and is getting very upset about it so just want to be able to (hopefully) put her mind at ease a little.
I appreciate in advance any help anyone is able to offer.
Jack
Yes they can do this - and unfortunately its a like it or lump it situation.
Your MiL could resign and claim constructive dismissal - but I do not fancy her chances of being successful as changes in hours are not generally strong cases to bring; plus the employer will have a defence as the changes are for some "other substantive good reason". The ET will be very unlikely to question the employers motives for the change of hours - especially if it is for the commercial advantage of the business.
Contracts can be varied with the consent of both parties - if one party does not want to vary, then the contract comes to an end - they will just serve her notice of termination and say goodbye.
There is no redundancy as her job still exists.
Hope this helps
Hi there, thanks for all of the replies, much appreciated.
We have now got hold of her contract of employment which specifically refers to the current hours she works and states the amount of hours worked a week.
The reason for the change is because they say they don't need people in that early anymore, she works in a kitchen and have adjusted the breakfast times, so I can absolutely see from their perspective that they don't need anyone in that early.
The only reason I thought she may have a case is that her contract of employment specifically refers to the hours. It looks as if from the above responses though that she's got little chance of winning this one.
Due to the fact she's worked there for a long time I thought they may just be trying to get out of a redundancy payment, as the majority of the rest of the staff speak little english and seem quite happy to do whatever they're told! So they've taken a real dislike to her and another colleague who are rightfully questioning what's going on.
I think I may see if I can get everything together and have a 30 min session with a specialist solicitor to see if she has any sort of case at all.
We have now got hold of her contract of employment which specifically refers to the current hours she works and states the amount of hours worked a week.
The reason for the change is because they say they don't need people in that early anymore, she works in a kitchen and have adjusted the breakfast times, so I can absolutely see from their perspective that they don't need anyone in that early.
The only reason I thought she may have a case is that her contract of employment specifically refers to the hours. It looks as if from the above responses though that she's got little chance of winning this one.
Due to the fact she's worked there for a long time I thought they may just be trying to get out of a redundancy payment, as the majority of the rest of the staff speak little english and seem quite happy to do whatever they're told! So they've taken a real dislike to her and another colleague who are rightfully questioning what's going on.
I think I may see if I can get everything together and have a 30 min session with a specialist solicitor to see if she has any sort of case at all.
Jacko 325 said:
I think I may see if I can get everything together and have a 30 min session with a specialist solicitor to see if she has any sort of case at all.
Her company have a very good reason not to have her come in early, they won't have the kitchen open. Therefore they would be more than entitled to change her hours to suit.She has no case at all under these circumstances.
In all honesty, what do you expect her company to do? Have her come in and sit around for a while until they open the kitchen?
Well if it's a significant enough change of hours, which this is from Monday-Friday 6:30-3:00 to now include evenings and weekends, then I didn't think it would be as straightforward for them to just change the hours and that's it, no consultation etc!
I guess what I'm getting at is maybe they can do this, but there are ways in which you do it, which they seem to have totally disregarded and are basically trying to bully the MiL...
I guess what I'm getting at is maybe they can do this, but there are ways in which you do it, which they seem to have totally disregarded and are basically trying to bully the MiL...
Jacko 325 said:
Well if it's a significant enough change of hours, which this is from Monday-Friday 6:30-3:00 to now include evenings and weekends, then I didn't think it would be as straightforward for them to just change the hours and that's it, no consultation etc!
I guess what I'm getting at is maybe they can do this, but there are ways in which you do it, which they seem to have totally disregarded and are basically trying to bully the MiL...
As JasandJules has said above - they are not trying to bully her, if the kitchen is not open at that time they can't be forced to simply pay her to stay at home, or wait outside. Clearly that is silly.I guess what I'm getting at is maybe they can do this, but there are ways in which you do it, which they seem to have totally disregarded and are basically trying to bully the MiL...
Practically, they have three options:
1) Make her redundant - and risk the backlash that they have not offered her alternative work. Or
2) Cut her hours - and risk the same. Or,
3) Offer her alternative work.
When you cut the emotive backing from this, they've done 3). Which IMHO the fairest thing.
Of course, your MiL can choose to reject that and hand her notice in. Or, she could ask if she is unwilling to do certain hours for her contracted hours to be cut. Or, she could simply ask for what she wants.
That's all fair, and my advice for a way forward - and that'll save you wasting money on a solicitor advising you the same, or lining their pockets with work or action which will not provide what your MiL wants.
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