RE: ESP not speed cameras: report
Discussion
"We all have to go at sometime and despite how unpleasent it may seem IMHO road accidents are at acceptable levels. Discuss."
Greg2k, you are the first person I have ever heard say that, and to be honest I've often thought the same thing. We have some of the safest roads in the world and the lowest accident figures but we still get treated like we are all irresponsible mad drivers.
8pack, ESP is not purely reactive, nor is ABS. They both have parameters in their algorithims that, when combined with various sensor information, predict if the vehilcle will lock a wheel or deviate from it's intended course. The system readies itself before this happens. A purely reactive system would not be quick enough.
Greg2k, you are the first person I have ever heard say that, and to be honest I've often thought the same thing. We have some of the safest roads in the world and the lowest accident figures but we still get treated like we are all irresponsible mad drivers.
8pack, ESP is not purely reactive, nor is ABS. They both have parameters in their algorithims that, when combined with various sensor information, predict if the vehilcle will lock a wheel or deviate from it's intended course. The system readies itself before this happens. A purely reactive system would not be quick enough.
greg2k said:
We all have to go at sometime and despite how unpleasent it may seem IMHO road accidents are at acceptable levels. Discuss.
Thing is, most serious accidents result in long term disbility rather than fatality. If road accidents are the largest single cause of fatality and serious injury in the majority of the population, then they are ineveitably going to be the target of the 'wrap 'em all in cotton wool' brigade. The real question is, why is ESP only available on high end motahs if it only costs 300 quid? Surely it should be available as an option on all cars. Or would that remove the eclusivity which makes better off motorists feel smug and car manufacturers richer?
I've spun out twice, once in a rwd car, once in a fwd car.
Fortunately I was in isolation, but they taught me big lessons.
Touch wood I won't be doing it again, and neither car had ABS or EBD or ESP etc etc.
Driving aids, by their very nature, aid the driver. Why should a driver need AID? In my case it would have averted the spin, but I would have not learnt the results of my actions, and not appreciated the bad shape I put the car in.
To have a cushion there protecting you means you don't understand the seriousness of your potentially dangerous driving.
If the car bails you out, your not going to back off as much as if you'd have spun out!
Sounds harsh, but eventually you'd overcook it and the ESP can't save you. Chances are you'll be going ALOT faster and have no chance of saving the car!
Respect is all you need for a car.
Dave
Fortunately I was in isolation, but they taught me big lessons.
Touch wood I won't be doing it again, and neither car had ABS or EBD or ESP etc etc.
Driving aids, by their very nature, aid the driver. Why should a driver need AID? In my case it would have averted the spin, but I would have not learnt the results of my actions, and not appreciated the bad shape I put the car in.
To have a cushion there protecting you means you don't understand the seriousness of your potentially dangerous driving.
If the car bails you out, your not going to back off as much as if you'd have spun out!
Sounds harsh, but eventually you'd overcook it and the ESP can't save you. Chances are you'll be going ALOT faster and have no chance of saving the car!
Respect is all you need for a car.
Dave
Worked out what I hate about PFI stuff.
They're too efficient.
Previoulsy you could rattle alongat a healthy 85 without anyone really bothering you, cos basically you weren't harming anyone and the cops would use their judgement.
Now there is cash involved, suddenly you get nicked for 77+.
Funny that
Same with Traffic wardens.
Had one arrive today on a moped ffs and try and give me aticket when I was six feet away
Oh boy
They're too efficient.
Previoulsy you could rattle alongat a healthy 85 without anyone really bothering you, cos basically you weren't harming anyone and the cops would use their judgement.
Now there is cash involved, suddenly you get nicked for 77+.
Funny that
Same with Traffic wardens.
Had one arrive today on a moped ffs and try and give me aticket when I was six feet away
Oh boy
doobs too said:
"We all have to go at sometime and despite how unpleasent it may seem IMHO road accidents are at acceptable levels. Discuss."
Greg2k, you are the first person I have ever heard say that, and to be honest I've often thought the same thing. We have some of the safest roads in the world and the lowest accident figures but we still get treated like we are all irresponsible mad drivers.
8pack, ESP is not purely reactive, nor is ABS. They both have parameters in their algorithims that, when combined with various sensor information, predict if the vehilcle will lock a wheel or deviate from it's intended course. The system readies itself before this happens. A purely reactive system would not be quick enough.
I stand corrected Doobs, as you say, they ARE more interactive than reactive these days. The Jags CATS system I think is superb! (do bear in mind that my XJ8 isn't a "B*lls out" sports car and is quite a bit bigger than most of this breed.
If I were a pure "sports" car anthusiast, and for some reason (just me) I've always liked the larger comfortable but yet capable cars, I would agree totally.
But this technology brings a little closer the difference between the "sports car" and the "family sports saloon". In my case: Jaguar.....What else?................................
if it makes cars safer and helps prevent a few accidents then mae it happen... does your airbag make you think 'if i have a crash this thing will save me'??? ESP will do the same an an enhanced safety feature...
I love the DSC on my Cooper S for the times it lets me know that its thinking of me on a twisty B!
I love the DSC on my Cooper S for the times it lets me know that its thinking of me on a twisty B!
Hi.
new to the forums... thought i would add that having recently been looking (and ending up buying) at new cars...
Alot of the small-mid sized cars are now coming with ESP as standard. of the two i remember the Citroen C4 came with ESP & ABS as standard accross the range (while traction control was an option on some, and standard on others)
And the same with the Newer C2s... seems maybe in this market the Manus are pushing the safety features more and more...
new to the forums... thought i would add that having recently been looking (and ending up buying) at new cars...
Alot of the small-mid sized cars are now coming with ESP as standard. of the two i remember the Citroen C4 came with ESP & ABS as standard accross the range (while traction control was an option on some, and standard on others)
And the same with the Newer C2s... seems maybe in this market the Manus are pushing the safety features more and more...
tallbloke said:
We all have to go at sometime and despite how unpleasent it may seem IMHO road accidents are at acceptable levels. Discuss.
Thing is, most serious accidents result in long term disbility rather than fatality. If road accidents are the largest single cause of fatality and serious injury in the majority of the population, then they are ineveitably going to be the target of the 'wrap 'em all in cotton wool' brigade. The real question is, why is ESP only available on high end motahs if it only costs 300 quid? Surely it should be available as an option on all cars. Or would that remove the eclusivity which makes better off motorists feel smug and car manufacturers richer?
Good points about disability as opposed to fatality. And very serious disability where medical excellence has, shall we say, stopped a body from dying without really saving a life, comes very expensive. The was (still is?) a case where a denied asylum seeker had not left the country and was severely injured in a road accident while driving unlicenced, etc. He was kept alive by the medics but in a vegetative state. He now requires specialist care in a well equipped hospital room (in London I believe) and is costing the small local NHS trust who saved his life after the accident (In Lincolnshire somewhere as I recall) about 400k per annum, probably for the next 30 years or so.
Seems like a strange use of resources by any method of judgement.
As far as making ESP standard - ESP and similar are by-products of ABS technology. No ABS, no ESP. So making ABS a required standard fitment is a prerequisite of the ability to offer ESP (afaik). So the 300 quid value today is only 300 quid because other requirements, developments and implementations have already covered a large part of the costs. Even 300 quid is proabbaly still a amortized figure based on mass installation and the associated cost savings for scaled manufacture.
The downside is that there is ever more to go wrong, that maintenance becomes very specialised and more expensive for even the most basic things and the costs and availability of parts to keep older vehicles running may mean they end up with shorter lives. Indeed the ate of turn for replacementing most of the 'stock' is probably about 13 years. Most vehicles seem well able to last that long without rusting much these days. So be spend more in money and resource to make things last longer and then throw them away anyway because they become uneconomic to maintain.
IF, and it's a big IF, the advance in safety engineering in that time justifies the disposal then fair enough. The manufacturing economics in terms of raw material consumption and that touchy subject of pollution and energy consumption probably don't work too advantageously in those timescales. So there is a trade off.
As with everything 'safety' oriented, were the benefits great enough one might assume that the authorities would push them and provide carrot type incentives to adopt them. Remove VAT on cars with the latest safety aids for example. Something like that.
I won't be holding my breath waiting for it to happen.
fonoq35 said:
For discussion:
Instead of all this tech to protect you from making mistakes why not just try to improve driving standards?
1. Make people retake their test after ?15? years
2. Compulsory advanced drivers training for high powered/ sports cars
3. More cops on the road to watch for bullsh*t driving
Well said, of course this does not generate revenue and therefore can't be safe *cough cough*
Speed. Oh dear. On the one hand we all want to be safe, and on the other we still want exhilaration. I'm getting more than a bit jaded at being told how I've got to slow down here and there in places where only an imbecile wouldn't. And also finding 60 and 70 limits where you'd be an imbecile if you drove anywhere near that speed.
So let's look at people , not the cars for a minute.
The machinery is safer and better constructed than ever before. But ABS is making tailgating as bad as on the Continent. Drivers think with all the tech, they can stop easily.
And so it goes on...
As a driver with a fast penchant and a clean track record for over 35 years [smug, no. just careful], is it beyong the wit of the authorities to keep some of the idiots off the road by making the test more difficult? If there was one group of motorists that spoils it for the rest of us it's a small number of young drivers [and some older ones too!] who should never have got a licence in the first place. Just look around you. Sure, they're not the only ones, but if there is one way to keep the roads clearer and safer, it's to prevent drivers who shouldn't be on them in the first place getting a licence. Instead of making it tougher for responsible people, why not cut back on accidents, pollution, excess insurance etc etc and all the doom laden predictions by making it hard to get a licence. And taking it away FOR GOOD, when people show a blatant disregard for everyone else. Every day we read of drivers who have killed an maimed, drunk drivers, drugged drivers, joyriding thieves etc who will get, or have got, their licence back.
It makes you wonder where the revenue is the prime objective. It certainly looks that way over the Congestion charge and speed fines. Make the test harder, and you deal with the problem before it becomes one.
Simon Burrett
So let's look at people , not the cars for a minute.
The machinery is safer and better constructed than ever before. But ABS is making tailgating as bad as on the Continent. Drivers think with all the tech, they can stop easily.
And so it goes on...
As a driver with a fast penchant and a clean track record for over 35 years [smug, no. just careful], is it beyong the wit of the authorities to keep some of the idiots off the road by making the test more difficult? If there was one group of motorists that spoils it for the rest of us it's a small number of young drivers [and some older ones too!] who should never have got a licence in the first place. Just look around you. Sure, they're not the only ones, but if there is one way to keep the roads clearer and safer, it's to prevent drivers who shouldn't be on them in the first place getting a licence. Instead of making it tougher for responsible people, why not cut back on accidents, pollution, excess insurance etc etc and all the doom laden predictions by making it hard to get a licence. And taking it away FOR GOOD, when people show a blatant disregard for everyone else. Every day we read of drivers who have killed an maimed, drunk drivers, drugged drivers, joyriding thieves etc who will get, or have got, their licence back.
It makes you wonder where the revenue is the prime objective. It certainly looks that way over the Congestion charge and speed fines. Make the test harder, and you deal with the problem before it becomes one.
Simon Burrett
simon burrett said:
If there was one group of motorists that spoils it for the rest of us it's a small number of young drivers [and some older ones too!] who should never have got a licence in the first place.
.....
Instead of making it tougher for responsible people, why not cut back on accidents, pollution, excess insurance etc etc and all the doom laden predictions by making it hard to get a licence. And taking it away FOR GOOD, when people show a blatant disregard for everyone else. Every day we read of drivers who have killed an maimed, drunk drivers, drugged drivers, joyriding thieves etc who will get, or have got, their licence back.
A couple of problems here. Your last point may or may not be valid but it occurs to me that anyone who shows a blatant disregard for everyone else probably has the same disregard for the law. Mainly because they know it will do little to them if caught breaking the rules. No licence does not mean they are off the road.
In terms of your first point, suprisingly the RTA stats seem to indicate a quite marked drop in younger aged people - under 25 or so and especially under 20 - involved as drivers in injury accidents. This over the last few years when the late 20's to late 40's groups have shown some relatively consistent numbers year on year.
Of course it could be to do with a population age bubble (or trough in this case) but it is interesting. I would really like to know why the numbers have gone that way. Any ideas anyone?
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