M42 Matrix signals, legal question.
Discussion
Flat in Fifth said:
Right here is what happened. Don't know how to explain this more clearly....
As I said earlier arguably the 40 and lane closure still applied.
As I said earlier arguably the 40 and lane closure still applied.
Ah. Mandatory speed and I'd agree with you that the lanes are still closed without any further gantries being illuminated. The red X will be cancelled by the END further along.
So in my reply where I said I'd pop back out after the cone wagon - I'd be a very naughty boy and should be punished.
OK, the "red-ringed" matrix signs are called "Controlled Motorway Indicators" and are mandatory signs (ie you get done if you ignor them) and are only finished when the "ends" sign, or NSL sign is displayed. so technically, in your first question, the lanes are closed, and the speed limit is 40 mph (mandatory) providing it's got a red ring arround the speed restriction, until the "ends" signal appears,
In practice, the speed restrictions would be relavent where the cones/workforce are, and usually everyone uses the still open lanes after the traffic management vehicle.
NOTE; that the red "X" over a lane is also mandatory, and up here in the northwest, if noticed by a BiB, going through them will get you the chance to donate to the government coffers, with points to show for it.
In practice, the speed restrictions would be relavent where the cones/workforce are, and usually everyone uses the still open lanes after the traffic management vehicle.
NOTE; that the red "X" over a lane is also mandatory, and up here in the northwest, if noticed by a BiB, going through them will get you the chance to donate to the government coffers, with points to show for it.
Flat in Fifth said:
Signs activated tonight as lane closures being put in place.
Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
FiF - what would you consider a reasonable number to be in such a situation? Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
- Streaky Edited to corect formatting error
Edited by streaky on Friday 11th August 10:26
streaky said:
Flat in Fifth said:
Signs activated tonight as lane closures being put in place.
Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
FiF - what would you consider a reasonable number to be in such a situation?
- Streaky Sorted quote formatting out if that is OK.
Err good question actually.
On reflection considering the way that the limit had been brought down and the move to lane to your left arrows had been displayed it was clear that something was up, so would say that no-one had an excuse for allowing themselves to get into that situation.
I can accept that an odd person might be car in gear brain in neutral and be hung out to dry, but there were 10+ in my visio ahead and behind who stopped out there and yet had somewhere to their left to go so I'm not really sure why other than ignorance of the rules.
There maybe was the element of previous experience of signs crying wolf and I know better syndrome, but as I say something was clearly 'up' and it wasn't as if they were passing queues of slow moving traffic.
Appreciate that is a vague answer Streaky, sorry about that.
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Friday 11th August 09:54
Flat in Fifth said:
streaky said:
Flat in Fifth said:
Signs activated tonight as lane closures being put in place.
Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
FiF - what would you consider a reasonable number to be in such a situation?
- Streaky Sorted quote formatting out if that is OK.
Err good question actually.
On reflection considering the way that the limit had been brought down and the move to lane to your left arrows had been displayed it was clear that something was up, so would say that no-one had an excuse for allowing themselves to get into that situation.
I can accept that an odd person might be car in gear brain in neutral and be hung out to dry, but there were 10+ in my visio ahead and behind who stopped out there and yet had somewhere to their left to go so I'm not really sure why other than ignorance of the rules.
There maybe was the element of previous experience of signs crying wolf and I know better syndrome, but as I say something was clearly 'up' and it wasn't as if they were passing queues of slow moving traffic.
Appreciate that is a vague answer Streaky, sorry about that.
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Friday 11th August 09:54
Flat in Fifth said:
streaky said:
Flat in Fifth said:
Signs activated tonight as lane closures being put in place.
Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
FiF - what would you consider a reasonable number to be in such a situation?
- Streaky Sorted quote formatting out if that is OK.
Err good question actually.
On reflection considering the way that the limit had been brought down and the move to lane to your left arrows had been displayed it was clear that something was up, so would say that no-one had an excuse for allowing themselves to get into that situation.
I can accept that an odd person might be car in gear brain in neutral and be hung out to dry, but there were 10+ in my visio ahead and behind who stopped out there and yet had somewhere to their left to go so I'm not really sure why other than ignorance of the rules.
There maybe was the element of previous experience of signs crying wolf and I know better syndrome, but as I say something was clearly 'up' and it wasn't as if they were passing queues of slow moving traffic.
Appreciate that is a vague answer Streaky, sorry about that.
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Friday 11th August 09:54
To add to this FiF, and probably further add to the confusion as to legalities.
I have now lost count of the number of times I have been caught on the M8 or M74 up here with these signs left flashing after either road works have been completed or an accident/incident has been cleared away.
The last occasion they were on for THREE DAYS after the road works, resulting in bunching, swerving braking, then the inevitable WTF???? reaction at the realisation that there was nothing there.
That was the last time I complained, I have given up now.
I am sick to death with the constant battle to try and get these tossers to simply do their jobs properly.
I mean, they are in an office with a huge bank of screens connected to a network of cameras and all you are asking them to do is throw a switch at the right time; the implications of them NOT doing so resulting in serious and often dangerous inconvenience to literally thousands of people.
How on earth could they miss this for THREE DAYS??
We need to have some sort of regulation on those operating this equipment to make them totally accountable for their incompetence.
streaky said:
Flat in Fifth said:
streaky said:
Flat in Fifth said:
Signs activated tonight as lane closures being put in place.
Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
Limit reduced progressively to 40 and then lane 1 open @ 40 lanes 2 & 3 closed with the red cross, as in do not travel any further in this lane.
Get to the section where the cones are being put out closing lanes 2 & 3.
Beyond the contractor lorry which was carrying the road works end sign just that it wasn't displayed properly, (sharp eyes me!) the matrices were blank and unlit.
I assume ( yes ass hee-haw hee-haw) that they were being progressively illuminated as the lorry reached each gantry.
Anyway having passed the lorry, most drivers were a bit unsure, did the 40 and lane 1 only still apply? After having passed two blank gantries most people thought "French Connection UK it" and resumed normal speed and position on road.
However the end and NSL signs were not displayed until a few miles down the road.
So common sense says one thing, what does the law say? Opinions?
Actually as an aside an inordinate number of people were ignoring the red cross "Do not proceed further in this lane." Bet they don't know that this is considered same as passing a red TL.
FiF - what would you consider a reasonable number to be in such a situation?
- Streaky Sorted quote formatting out if that is OK.
Err good question actually.
On reflection considering the way that the limit had been brought down and the move to lane to your left arrows had been displayed it was clear that something was up, so would say that no-one had an excuse for allowing themselves to get into that situation.
I can accept that an odd person might be car in gear brain in neutral and be hung out to dry, but there were 10+ in my visio ahead and behind who stopped out there and yet had somewhere to their left to go so I'm not really sure why other than ignorance of the rules.
There maybe was the element of previous experience of signs crying wolf and I know better syndrome, but as I say something was clearly 'up' and it wasn't as if they were passing queues of slow moving traffic.
Appreciate that is a vague answer Streaky, sorry about that.
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Friday 11th August 09:54
Being equally cheeky streaky (I'm a poet and didn't know it!) I think my answer demonstrates that it was an unreasonable number was it not?
Never mind I'm easily confused......
Out of interest what would you have done? Pass the lorry in L1 @ 40, wait for next matrix, still blank, hmmm could be inop, wait for next matrix still blank and all signs to horizon are blank. Personally I think it is reasonable, if possibly not legal, to return to normal road positioning and use.
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