Police scared of robbers or H & S officials
Discussion
loaf said:
Hey heres a radical thought, arm the public. The criminals have guns, know the public don't and know the police will take time to respond. Now then are you going to rob a post office knowing the staff may shoot back. Didn't think so.
In the USA, where in most states it's easier to buy a gun than a beer, the following is true for the year 2001:
There were 29,571 gun deaths across the US.
11,671 of these were murders.
16,869 of these were suicides.
802 were 'accidents' - I put the quotes on this as who knows how many of these were accidental or made to look that way.
Since JFK got shot more Americans have died from gunshot wounds in their own homes than have died in battle in all the armed conflicts in the 20th Century.
If the crims have got revolvers, and the public get revolvers, the crims will get semi-auto pistols. If the public then gets semi-auto pistols, the crims will get machine pistols. If the public gets machine pistols, the crims will get assault rifles...you get the idea.
The death penalty is not a deterrent. People who commit capital crimes do so on the basis that they don;t think they will be caught so what does it matter? If it was a deterrent then why are there over 3000 Death Row inmates in the USA? Every Friday at least one poor sod gets the chop in a Saudi public square (not belittling what happened to Bigley, but the Saudis do that every week and no-one bats an eyelid) and the trend isn't decreasing.
Statistics... ahh... what are those figure as a % of the population. What is drug related? etc.
Escallation with firearms is not really a reason not to have them. If a crim knew it was likely the home owner will have any type of gun he wont go in. ps I would sooner have a shotgun then anything else in a house.
loaf said:
Since JFK got shot more Americans have died from gunshot wounds in their own homes than have died in battle in all the armed conflicts in the 20th Century.
All the dead in all armed conflicts in the 20th century?? more than 100 million then?????
20m WWI, 45m WW2 and so on......
so the USA is empty? no-one there??? something slightly wrong with your stats old chap......methinks
But you're right, the right to carry arms is good, but the lefty wnakers can't have that because someone might wake up and shoot the scum...... that's why there was the kneejerk reaction after Dunblane by the government (in this case Tory)...a VERY BAD DECISION...
If a crim knows there's a good chance he'll get shot committing a crime then he may desist or at least think a bit further. Sure ht3ere are idiots out there who prove it another way, but I feel safer in a lot of US cities then I do in some areas of Manchester, London or Bristol.....
Anyone breaking into our home without warning runs the risk of .357 teflon coated lead arriving in their immediate area at around 3500ft/sec!!!! and that legally.....!!!!!! Am i worried about killing a burglar? No not at all, scum who thieve should be dealt with, not given holidays at my expense!!!
superlightr said:
Statistics... ahh... what are those figure as a % of the population. What is drug related? etc.
Escallation with firearms is not really a reason not to have them. If a crim knew it was likely the home owner will have any type of gun he wont go in. ps I would sooner have a shotgun then anything else in a house.
well...they definitely knew that Tony Martin had a gun when they robbed him didnt they? Didnt stop em. Admittedly with hindsight I think it would have done!
oh, and thre have been a fair few cases of entirely innocent people being shot on peoples propeties in the US who were there for good reason.....
Watching 'Bowling for Columbine' gives some interesting thoughts as to gun death vs media hype etc...gun ownership is higher percentage-wise in Canada than in the US yet deaths are massively, massively lower.
Tafia said:
Tafia said:
Report said the police didn't show up for over 20 minutes!
Nah, two vans showed up first, having been told it was safe to do so. Joe Public; you is on your own.
ARV's I have seen have been Volvo estates
Trouble is Tafia - GMP rushed into a situation last year and a Special Branch Officer was stabbed to death by a terrorist subject. They have lost couple of officers in shoot-outs in Moss Side as well. So can understand why they were being cautious here on this basis.
However, as said to Strassen
elsewhere und lieber gone also elsewhere - we have problem developing whereby these baddies now see BiBs as "soft". We also have another problem as to how our BiBs handle a terrorist threat - because we know from events elsewhere - we are not dealing with the reasonable here.
Of course - gone, robo
and any others who are fire-arms trained cannot disclose what measures might be going on - because to do so would bring them in breach of some law or other - und there is security as well. But - we do need to know what lessons have been learned from the TVP fiasco and these other incidents involving scrotes - as we need to be sure that our guys can cope with the more serious b
r And we also need some reassurance that they are indeed being trained properly 'cos I have cousins who are fire arms trained - and I want to know that those men as well as gone, robocop et al are able to protect themselves as well as me! Nightmare said:
..gun ownership is higher percentage-wise in Canada than in the US yet deaths are massively, massively lower.
Just more sensibly controlled, although the damned Chrétien lefty bunch are trying to "disarm" the public as they're running scared.....
they brought in a IMHO totally illegal government method, which is costing billions to try to control "all those weapons"... I know a lot of very reponsible canadians who have quite a few weapons of many types and shades, who have no problems with correct gun control...
It's only the great unwashed with a kneejerk reaction screaming for control who get bad laws and bad application of controls......
and yes, Canada is much safer than the US but with more weapons.......
ca092003 said:
StreetCop
Are you saying that because I am not in the front line, my opinions don't matter?
I'm not saying they don't matter...but be a little more sucinct with your posts. If I have a plumber round to the house and I discuss plumbing with him...I would bow to the fact that his knowledge, experience and daily hands on work probably means that he knows better than me.
ca092003 said:
I think I've also demonstrated in the thread about solid white lines that what you consider the law to be and what the actual law is are different things. Personally, and I don't wish to appear rude (I really don't) that you are a TrafPol and you do not fully understand road traffic legislation is pretty astonishing.
You've demonstrated nothing.....The 'law' isn't cast in stone regarding the police use of vehicles. We can exceed the speed limit and contravene other legislation. However, if it all goes wrong, we have a duty of care to the public and will find ourselves subject to prosecution, just like anyone else. What is different though, is that if a collision doesn't occur, then we wont be prosecuted. Got it?
What you are "astonished" about, God only knows..
Street
It's not all they are scared of. This was in the local evening paper today (www.eveningnews24.co.uk). It should be noted (needless to say) that Norwich has very few actually active cops around ; for the west half of the city I think it is two. I have *never* seen a foot patrol in Norwich.
POLICE have launched an inquiry after it took officers nearly five hours to respond to a call reporting that a nine-year-old girl had been grabbed by a pervert in a city park.
The child's worried father today demanded to know why his daughter was such a low priority after he reported the assault, which he said could have seen her abducted or raped.
The attacker told the girl he wanted to have sex with her and grabbed her arm, but she managed to escape his clutches by punching him in the stomach and wriggling free.
She ran away shouting for help and he chased her. But her screams alerted her friends who ran over and frightened the man away. Luckily the schoolgirl escaped without being harmed.
Brian Walker, 50, who did not want his daughter's identity revealed, said he had raced out into the street to report the attack to a policeman he had spotted nearby.
He was told to call 999, but when he dialled the emergency number he was told to re-dial the police switchboard. Mr Walker had to phone four times before a police officer went round to the family house in Bowers Close, Mile Cross.
The attack happened between 4.30pm and 4.50pm on Saturday in Sloughbottom Park, Mile Cross — just a few streets away from the local police station in Woodcock Road.
It was first reported just after 5pm, but a police officer did not arrive at the family home at 9.35pm.
Today, Kristina Raines, a spokeswoman for Norfolk Constabulary, said: "An internal inquiry to assess whether we delivered the correct service has now been put in place and any lessons learned will be acted upon.
"Central area police officers are committed to giving the best service possible to everyone who lives in our area and it is of great concern to us that the victim's family do not feel this was the case on this occasion."
Mr Walker said: "She could have been abducted or even worse raped.
"I am absolutely furious that it took police so long to come out and I am appalled by the policeman I spoke to in the street.
"I was fobbed off by the police the policeman I spoke to in Bowers Avenue when he said he was busy, but he could have used his radio or mobile phone. Our home is three or four minutes walk from the park."
Mr Walker believes if police had responded instantly to his report, the man could have been caught.
His wife, Doreen Walker, 44, said it terrified her that the culprit was still on the loose and feared for the wellbeing of other youngsters.
She said: "There is still somebody out there who is a real danger and it worries me especially with Halloween coming up.
"We have bought our daughter a mobile phone now so that she is always easy to reach. We have good neighbours and family and everyone has been supportive. She is coping well during the day but she is afraid at night. I went to the spot where the attack happened and felt physically ill."
The girl's grandfather, Billy Vann, 68, who also lives in Mile Cross, said there was something wrong with the entire police system.
"I went past Mile Cross police station on Saturday and there were six police cars outside and yet it took them so long to respond to the call. In that time there could have been a murder for all we know," he said.
"If I was the governor I would sack the lot of them."
Brian Walker said he had taught his daughter a bit about self-defence.
"I have always told my daughter to protect herself by kicking people, or poking them in the eyes if they grabbed her.
"She was unhurt but this is going to stick in her mind for a long time.
"I wished I had been able to chase the man.
"My daughter is worried now. She won't even go out.
"This pervert is still out there, there could end up being another Sarah Payne."
Police spokeswoman Miss Raines, added: "Police officers attended the victim's home to speak with her parents and establish the details of the indecent assault.
"The incident where the youngster was grabbed happened earlier that day between 4.30pm and 4.50pm.
"Dedicated officers are currently working hard on this case and have since paid more visits to the family.
"No other incidents in the city are believed to be linked."
The man is described as white, in his early 20s with slim build and about 5ft 10ins tall. He had dark brown hair which was short at the back and longer on top. He had brown eyes and was clean shaven.
He was wearing blue jeans with a navy blue zipped top and white trainers.
Anyone with information is asked to call Norfolk police on (01953) 424242.
This is the latest in a series of errors and delays made by the police this year.
In June, they were called to a violent disturbance in King's Lynn and responded by heading to an address in Norwich — 43 miles away.
The call was apparently logged incorrectly.
And then in August an investigation was launched when a 999 operator sent yet more police to the wrong town.
While John West, 61, lay bleeding in Sheringham, officers were sent 16 miles away to Wells-next-the-Sea.
POLICE have launched an inquiry after it took officers nearly five hours to respond to a call reporting that a nine-year-old girl had been grabbed by a pervert in a city park.
The child's worried father today demanded to know why his daughter was such a low priority after he reported the assault, which he said could have seen her abducted or raped.
The attacker told the girl he wanted to have sex with her and grabbed her arm, but she managed to escape his clutches by punching him in the stomach and wriggling free.
She ran away shouting for help and he chased her. But her screams alerted her friends who ran over and frightened the man away. Luckily the schoolgirl escaped without being harmed.
Brian Walker, 50, who did not want his daughter's identity revealed, said he had raced out into the street to report the attack to a policeman he had spotted nearby.
He was told to call 999, but when he dialled the emergency number he was told to re-dial the police switchboard. Mr Walker had to phone four times before a police officer went round to the family house in Bowers Close, Mile Cross.
The attack happened between 4.30pm and 4.50pm on Saturday in Sloughbottom Park, Mile Cross — just a few streets away from the local police station in Woodcock Road.
It was first reported just after 5pm, but a police officer did not arrive at the family home at 9.35pm.
Today, Kristina Raines, a spokeswoman for Norfolk Constabulary, said: "An internal inquiry to assess whether we delivered the correct service has now been put in place and any lessons learned will be acted upon.
"Central area police officers are committed to giving the best service possible to everyone who lives in our area and it is of great concern to us that the victim's family do not feel this was the case on this occasion."
Mr Walker said: "She could have been abducted or even worse raped.
"I am absolutely furious that it took police so long to come out and I am appalled by the policeman I spoke to in the street.
"I was fobbed off by the police the policeman I spoke to in Bowers Avenue when he said he was busy, but he could have used his radio or mobile phone. Our home is three or four minutes walk from the park."
Mr Walker believes if police had responded instantly to his report, the man could have been caught.
His wife, Doreen Walker, 44, said it terrified her that the culprit was still on the loose and feared for the wellbeing of other youngsters.
She said: "There is still somebody out there who is a real danger and it worries me especially with Halloween coming up.
"We have bought our daughter a mobile phone now so that she is always easy to reach. We have good neighbours and family and everyone has been supportive. She is coping well during the day but she is afraid at night. I went to the spot where the attack happened and felt physically ill."
The girl's grandfather, Billy Vann, 68, who also lives in Mile Cross, said there was something wrong with the entire police system.
"I went past Mile Cross police station on Saturday and there were six police cars outside and yet it took them so long to respond to the call. In that time there could have been a murder for all we know," he said.
"If I was the governor I would sack the lot of them."
Brian Walker said he had taught his daughter a bit about self-defence.
"I have always told my daughter to protect herself by kicking people, or poking them in the eyes if they grabbed her.
"She was unhurt but this is going to stick in her mind for a long time.
"I wished I had been able to chase the man.
"My daughter is worried now. She won't even go out.
"This pervert is still out there, there could end up being another Sarah Payne."
Police spokeswoman Miss Raines, added: "Police officers attended the victim's home to speak with her parents and establish the details of the indecent assault.
"The incident where the youngster was grabbed happened earlier that day between 4.30pm and 4.50pm.
"Dedicated officers are currently working hard on this case and have since paid more visits to the family.
"No other incidents in the city are believed to be linked."
The man is described as white, in his early 20s with slim build and about 5ft 10ins tall. He had dark brown hair which was short at the back and longer on top. He had brown eyes and was clean shaven.
He was wearing blue jeans with a navy blue zipped top and white trainers.
Anyone with information is asked to call Norfolk police on (01953) 424242.
This is the latest in a series of errors and delays made by the police this year.
In June, they were called to a violent disturbance in King's Lynn and responded by heading to an address in Norwich — 43 miles away.
The call was apparently logged incorrectly.
And then in August an investigation was launched when a 999 operator sent yet more police to the wrong town.
While John West, 61, lay bleeding in Sheringham, officers were sent 16 miles away to Wells-next-the-Sea.
Streetcop said:
StreetCop
Are you saying that because I am not in the front line, my opinions don't matter?
I'm not saying they don't matter...but be a little more sucinct with your posts. If I have a plumber round to the house and I discuss plumbing with him...I would bow to the fact that his knowledge, experience and daily hands on work probably means that he knows better than me.
ca092003 said:
I think I've also demonstrated in the thread about solid white lines that what you consider the law to be and what the actual law is are different things. Personally, and I don't wish to appear rude (I really don't) that you are a TrafPol and you do not fully understand road traffic legislation is pretty astonishing.
You've demonstrated nothing.....The 'law' isn't cast in stone regarding the police use of vehicles. We can exceed the speed limit and contravene other legislation. However, if it all goes wrong, we have a duty of care to the public and will find ourselves subject to prosecution, just like anyone else. What is different though, is that if a collision doesn't occur, then we wont be prosecuted. Got it?
What you are "astonished" about, God only knows..
Street
StreetCop
Let me get this straight. You think that because you are a police officer, the normal rule of law does not apply to you?
Perhaps you think that the law concerning drink driving doesn't apply to you? Or posession of Class A substances? Where do you draw the line?
It's a sorry state of affairs that simply because you've lost the argument you feel it necessary to resort to personal abuse.
Mod: I think appropriate intervention is in order.
autismuk said:
The girl's grandfather, Billy Vann, 68, who also lives in Mile Cross, said there was something wrong with the entire police system.
"I went past Mile Cross police station on Saturday and there were six police cars outside and yet it took them so long to respond to the call. In that time there could have been a murder for all we know," he said.
"If I was the governor I would sack the lot of them."
There were probably six cars outside the station because they were inside filling out paperwork for something else. "If i was the governor i would sack the lot of them" says grand dad? Eh? Why? Does he think those Police WANT to be sat on their arses doing mountains of paperwork?
The SYSTEM is wrong, not normal plod. Christ, this entire forum now is just about peoples pathetic stories of "the Police did nothing when...." etc etc etc (not necessarily a pop at you autismuk i know you didn't write the story).
Enter CA12345678910 or whoever with a great story about how police did nothing when he saw some grafitti or something.......
Themoss said:
Enter CA12345678910 or whoever with a great story about how police did nothing when he saw some grafitti or something.......
Do you know I have never had a bad experience with a BiB. I wonder if that is because I treat people as I would expect to be treat.
Sheep shot, in my opinion. How come you feel it necessary to stump to personal abuse?
swilly said:
By letting the robbers leave the post office, those within are safe. The unarmed officers are also safe.
This time. But what if a couple of vanloads of police happened to be driving past the next post office they robbed as they drew their guns? Perhaps on the way to hiding in the bushes and videoing motorists. Not that I think that they make a habit of that. But there is a first time for everything.
Themoss said:
There were probably six cars outside the station because they were inside filling out paperwork for something else. "If i was the governor i would sack the lot of them" says grand dad? Eh? Why? Does he think those Police WANT to be sat on their arses doing mountains of paperwork?
We all have mountains of paperwork. Teachers, doctors, health workers ....intead of being able to just get on with the job ....
But- when the police do not come ever - just sometimes crosses mind that the vast mountain of paperwork is played up - just a little more than it should be....
Themoss said:
The SYSTEM is wrong, not normal plod. Christ, this entire forum now is just about peoples pathetic stories of "the Police did nothing when...." etc etc etc
Mate - To those people who called BiBs in distress - they see their problem as the one important, devastating thing in their lives at the momnet they find they have been broken into and their goodies stolen. They do not see it as pathetic - but as "most serious thing that has happened to them in a long time, apart from a "Fixed Mugging"
" I have same problem in some respects ......- "My relative needs this expensive drug, and that new drug and a new heart and you sit there doing
all about it!" To them - very rightly - of highest importance - but the system and resources let them down - badly!
So - yes - I agree with you - the big "let down" is everywhere... Only sometimes - I do wonder if our Boys in Blue play it up a little. After all - crime means paperwork - but if they are not making the patrols and the call outs - where is the paperwork they are swamped with
gone said:
.....By the time information has come through the system to control room and an ARV has been dispatched the time delay will be at least 3 or 4 minutes.
How long does it take to rob a post Office?
If the ARV happens to be in the same street, they may stand a chance.
No ARV will take on this situation alone unless they happen to come across it. They are not allowed to without the approval of the Silver commander.
The real facts of the matter are that it takes seconds to rob a post office and escape, perhaps less than a minute.
The offenders have usually gone a long way by the time the Police are informed!
Well, I'm not one of these Silver Commandants so explain how this works. What is the purpose of a posse of police two streets away, and remaining there until the criminals have disappeared? Or am I not following this properly. Did the passing van take full details of the criminals transport. And the posse was staking out a cordon two streets diameter to establish which way they made their escape, so that the ARV would be able to follow them?
Streetcop said:
This strikes me as similar to the people who are members of the TA who then refuse to serve their country when they are needed.
The role of the police is to deal with crime. Or am I missing something?
Yep you're missing something...
Surely not motorists?!
Streetcop said:
You've assumed that the gun was real.
You've assumed that the gun was loaded.
You've assumed that the criminal would panic.
You've assumed that the criminal would fire.
You've assumed that the criminal would be accurate and be able to hit any given target.
Absobloodylutely!!!!....
You assume the worst and plan for it....
Street
Gun in glove compartment?
I give fair warning that I might, just might, have one in mine if anyone is thinking of getting closer than two streets and pulling me up!
diesel ed said:
What would unarmed officers be able to do against armed robbers.
They could borrow a speed camera, hide in the bushes, and video the robbers. Surely?
In Bury - that is probably closer to the truth than you think... was student in Manchester - Bury was one of the teaching hospitals - and the police trained nearby. Even then - Bury had "reputation" for zero tolerance on speed.... :rolleys:Streetcop said:
You've assumed that the gun was real.
You've assumed that the gun was loaded.
You've assumed that the criminal would panic.
You've assumed that the criminal would fire.
You've assumed that the criminal would be accurate and be able to hit any given target.
Absobloodylutely!!!!....
You assume the worst and plan for it....
..
Street
Tony Martin?
loaf said:
........In the USA, where in most states it's easier to buy a gun than a beer, the following is true for the year 2001:
There were 29,571 gun deaths across the US.
11,671 of these were murders.........
Think of the children - most of those were young people killed by people they new. ie drug dealers in gang shootouts not babies murdered by their dads.
Streetcop said:
StreetCop
Are you saying that because I am not in the front line, my opinions don't matter?
I'm not saying they don't matter...but be a little more sucinct with your posts. If I have a plumber round to the house and I discuss plumbing with him...I would bow to the fact that his knowledge, experience and daily hands on work probably means that he knows better than me...........
Street
But what if he was talking obvious bull and clearly knew less than you?
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