Are the gantry cameras on the M25 still active?

Are the gantry cameras on the M25 still active?

Author
Discussion

agtlaw

6,898 posts

212 months

Thursday 13th July 2017
quotequote all
cmaguire said:
MPowerMark said:
At present I have a clean licence. Have a prediction?
Yes.

Turn up in court and play the right tune and it's 6 points and a fine
A better strategy is not to turn up at court. Deal with it online or by post.

jm doc

2,923 posts

238 months

Thursday 13th July 2017
quotequote all
Excuse my ignorance, or naivety, but I thought speed cameras are supposed to be sighted at or near accident blackspots? So these Hadecs3 locations, I understand some are there to enforce the variable limits, but those at, for example MS4 boards, are these blackspots? Or cashspots?

cmaguire

3,589 posts

115 months

Thursday 13th July 2017
quotequote all
agtlaw said:
cmaguire said:
MPowerMark said:
At present I have a clean licence. Have a prediction?
Yes.

Turn up in court and play the right tune and it's 6 points and a fine
A better strategy is not to turn up at court. Deal with it online or by post.
I was already assuming that part, and thence the subsequent request to attend as a ban being under consideration.
Perhaps he'll get lucky. I expect a court appearance though, although 101 is probably the clincher.


Edited by cmaguire on Thursday 13th July 22:05

agtlaw

6,898 posts

212 months

Thursday 13th July 2017
quotequote all
cmaguire said:
I was already assuming that part, and thence the subsequent request to attend as a ban being under consideration.
Perhaps he'll get lucky. I expect a court appearance.
I don't. Not for 100/70. It's not in the highest sentencing guideline bracket. Luck isn't required.

agtlaw

6,898 posts

212 months

Thursday 13th July 2017
quotequote all
cmaguire said:
agtlaw said:
cmaguire said:
MPowerMark said:
At present I have a clean licence. Have a prediction?
Yes.

Turn up in court and play the right tune and it's 6 points and a fine
A better strategy is not to turn up at court. Deal with it online or by post.
I was already assuming that part, and thence the subsequent request to attend as a ban being under consideration.
Perhaps he'll get lucky. I expect a court appearance though, although 101 is probably the clincher.


Edited by cmaguire on Thursday 13th July 22:05
He wasn't doing 101.

MPowerMark

712 posts

212 months

Friday 14th July 2017
quotequote all
I would prefer a ban and fine. I could live with up to 4 weeks off the road. 6 points means I have to drive like an angel for next 3 years. Could I ask for a ban? Or would the magistrates think I'm taking the piss and get back at me by upping my fine?

Tablecloth

255 posts

92 months

Friday 14th July 2017
quotequote all
MPowerMark said:
I would prefer a ban and fine. I could live with up to 4 weeks off the road. 6 points means I have to drive like an angel for next 3 years. Could I ask for a ban? Or would the magistrates think I'm taking the piss and get back at me by upping my fine?
If found guilty or you plead guilty at court you will get the opportunity to say what effect a penalty will have on you. Quite often this works and fines, points and bans are weighed up depending upon the mitigation given.

You can get a solicitor to do that or do it yourself, it makes little difference to the susceptibility of the magistrates to a cock-and-bull story with the effect of your mitigation being entirely dependent upon the benevolence of the magistrates.
If you say to the magistrates:
"I would prefer a ban and fine. I could live with up to 4 weeks off the road. 6 points means I have to drive like an angel for next 3 years. "
I expect they will not be very kind to you. It would be reasonable for a bench of magistrates to award 6 points to you because the purpose of the penalty is to encourage you "...to drive like an angel..." rather than have 4 weeks off the road and return to it the way you were before the ban.

If you say something like "I will lose my job, my granny won't be able to get to her day-care center because she has a morbid fear of buses and taxis and I am the only member of my entire family who is able-bodied enough to be able to drive a motor vehicle...etc" they may fall for it.

If you are struggling with your imagination I'm certain there are people, professional and amateur, who have a library of stories you might use.

Penalties given out by courts are not really about what you prefer because if they were they wouldn't really be a penalty would they.

Tablecloth

255 posts

92 months

Friday 14th July 2017
quotequote all
jm doc said:
Excuse my ignorance, or naivety, but I thought speed cameras are supposed to be sighted at or near accident blackspots? So these Hadecs3 locations, I understand some are there to enforce the variable limits, but those at, for example MS4 boards, are these blackspots? Or cashspots?
Excused.

Speed cameras used in the Safety Camera Program between 2002 and 2007 were deployed in accordance with a collision history for the locations. Even then the speed cameras could be deployed at 20% of locations where they were a preventative speed management device. Since 2007 there has been no Safety Camera Program with the DfT issuing guidance that was entirely optional for councils and police; most followed it though.

The best place for a speed camera is where drivers are going too fast and encouragement is needed to encourage compliance with the lawful limit.

HADECS is a speed management device and is used to assist the flow of congested traffic. In my experience of where they have been deployed they have improved matters greatly.

It is only drivers who are not complying with the law who are fined, the rest pay no mind to the speed camera, why would they?

Fines are collected and they go to the government central fund. Speed awareness courses are also offered and are entirely voluntary, some of the revenue from the course is returned to the police, some remains with the course provider. The police and Highways England have significant costs in developing, deploying and operating speed cameras to allow the traffic to run on roads that would otherwise be congested more than when the HADECS system isn't used. The congestion occurs because of stop-start actions due to large speed differentials in traffic, sometimes, perhaps oft-times caused by some drivers who insist on ignoring traffic regulations. Whether you think that is right or wrong that is why the HADECS system has been developed and deployed.

There you go! You are neither ignorant or naive now. You're welcome. smile


dorset_clive

71 posts

201 months

Friday 14th July 2017
quotequote all
MPowerMark said:
Just got a prosecutstion letter today. Between junction 9 and 10 at 00.35 doing 100 in a 70. Up to 28 day ban coming my way plus a fine up to 2.5k I believe. Is what it is! ??
Not being an ar*e, but do you know specifically where the speed safety camera is? I go along that bit every few weeks, but hadn't noticed one between 9 and 10.

I only want to know for safety reasons....so I can watch out for other drivers slamming on their brakes wink

FurtiveFreddy

8,577 posts

243 months

Friday 14th July 2017
quotequote all
dorset_clive said:
Not being an ar*e, but do you know specifically where the speed safety camera is? I go along that bit every few weeks, but hadn't noticed one between 9 and 10.

I only want to know for safety reasons....so I can watch out for other drivers slamming on their brakes wink
It's clockwise, a mile or two before Cobham services. There's also a new one anti-clockwise between J9 and 8.

cmaguire

3,589 posts

115 months

Friday 14th July 2017
quotequote all
agtlaw said:
He wasn't doing 101.
That was why I said he may get away without court.
All for the sake of 1mph

Trivial offence, either way

You know better than me of course, at 101 they made me go to court. Could have been worse though, at least it wasn't 150+. I may call you if that happens.


Edited by cmaguire on Friday 14th July 13:17


Edited by cmaguire on Friday 14th July 13:19

maccas99

1,746 posts

194 months

Friday 14th July 2017
quotequote all
FurtiveFreddy said:
It's clockwise, a mile or two before Cobham services. There's also a new one anti-clockwise between J9 and 8.
Yup, I drive along this section 3 or 4 times a week and most of the time it's busy so no real drama. The risk is when traffic starts flowing again after coming to a dead stop and everyone hammers it. If this happens right where the cameras are they will normally be set to the lowest speed (40mph) and you will be nabbed. For this reason I always enable radar cruise (ACC on mine) and set it to the speeds displayed on the overhead gantries. This way you can be sure that you will never exceed the "recommended limit".

Obviously you'll have to think of something else if you don't have ACC biggrin

jm doc

2,923 posts

238 months

Friday 14th July 2017
quotequote all
Tablecloth said:
jm doc said:
Excuse my ignorance, or naivety, but I thought speed cameras are supposed to be sighted at or near accident blackspots? So these Hadecs3 locations, I understand some are there to enforce the variable limits, but those at, for example MS4 boards, are these blackspots? Or cashspots?
Excused.

Speed cameras used in the Safety Camera Program between 2002 and 2007 were deployed in accordance with a collision history for the locations. Even then the speed cameras could be deployed at 20% of locations where they were a preventative speed management device. Since 2007 there has been no Safety Camera Program with the DfT issuing guidance that was entirely optional for councils and police; most followed it though.

The best place for a speed camera is where drivers are going too fast and encouragement is needed to encourage compliance with the lawful limit.

HADECS is a speed management device and is used to assist the flow of congested traffic. In my experience of where they have been deployed they have improved matters greatly.

It is only drivers who are not complying with the law who are fined, the rest pay no mind to the speed camera, why would they?

Fines are collected and they go to the government central fund. Speed awareness courses are also offered and are entirely voluntary, some of the revenue from the course is returned to the police, some remains with the course provider. The police and Highways England have significant costs in developing, deploying and operating speed cameras to allow the traffic to run on roads that would otherwise be congested more than when the HADECS system isn't used. The congestion occurs because of stop-start actions due to large speed differentials in traffic, sometimes, perhaps oft-times caused by some drivers who insist on ignoring traffic regulations. Whether you think that is right or wrong that is why the HADECS system has been developed and deployed.

There you go! You are neither ignorant or naive now. You're welcome. smile
Thanks, that was very helpful. So there we have it confirmed, it's nothing to do with safety.

And having recently had the misfortune to travel down to London on a rare trip to those parts, I had the pleasure of spending an hour or so on a heavily congested M25 travelling at 20-50mph on a road littered with cameras. In over forty years of driving all over the world I don't think I have ever felt so stressed and at risk.

Complete and utter madness.






dogbucket

1,216 posts

207 months

Saturday 15th July 2017
quotequote all
FurtiveFreddy said:
It's clockwise, a mile or two before Cobham services. There's also a new one anti-clockwise between J9 and 8.
Strangely that one is still missing the camera pole, unless they don't fit those now?

FurtiveFreddy

8,577 posts

243 months

Saturday 15th July 2017
quotequote all
dogbucket said:
Strangely that one is still missing the camera pole, unless they don't fit those now?
Yes. not sure about that.

I'm going round there today so I'll have another look. That one isn't emitting any radar ATM anyway. Who knows, maybe they're going to install a load of dummy HADECS3 boxes to try and fool us?

The new HADECS3 cameras on the M3 J2-4 don't have the cameras before them either (at the moment). I'm yet to see any of those become live yet.

Guybrush

4,364 posts

212 months

Sunday 16th July 2017
quotequote all
jm doc said:
Tablecloth said:
jm doc said:
Excuse my ignorance, or naivety, but I thought speed cameras are supposed to be sighted at or near accident blackspots? So these Hadecs3 locations, I understand some are there to enforce the variable limits, but those at, for example MS4 boards, are these blackspots? Or cashspots?
Excused.

Speed cameras used in the Safety Camera Program between 2002 and 2007 were deployed in accordance with a collision history for the locations. Even then the speed cameras could be deployed at 20% of locations where they were a preventative speed management device. Since 2007 there has been no Safety Camera Program with the DfT issuing guidance that was entirely optional for councils and police; most followed it though.

The best place for a speed camera is where drivers are going too fast and encouragement is needed to encourage compliance with the lawful limit.

HADECS is a speed management device and is used to assist the flow of congested traffic. In my experience of where they have been deployed they have improved matters greatly.

It is only drivers who are not complying with the law who are fined, the rest pay no mind to the speed camera, why would they?

Fines are collected and they go to the government central fund. Speed awareness courses are also offered and are entirely voluntary, some of the revenue from the course is returned to the police, some remains with the course provider. The police and Highways England have significant costs in developing, deploying and operating speed cameras to allow the traffic to run on roads that would otherwise be congested more than when the HADECS system isn't used. The congestion occurs because of stop-start actions due to large speed differentials in traffic, sometimes, perhaps oft-times caused by some drivers who insist on ignoring traffic regulations. Whether you think that is right or wrong that is why the HADECS system has been developed and deployed.

There you go! You are neither ignorant or naive now. You're welcome. smile
Thanks, that was very helpful. So there we have it confirmed, it's nothing to do with safety.

And having recently had the misfortune to travel down to London on a rare trip to those parts, I had the pleasure of spending an hour or so on a heavily congested M25 travelling at 20-50mph on a road littered with cameras. In over forty years of driving all over the world I don't think I have ever felt so stressed and at risk.

Complete and utter madness.
Exactly. All about revenue as one would expect.

Tablecloth

255 posts

92 months

Sunday 16th July 2017
quotequote all
jm doc said:
Thanks, that was very helpful. So there we have it confirmed, it's nothing to do with safety.

And having recently had the misfortune to travel down to London on a rare trip to those parts, I had the pleasure of spending an hour or so on a heavily congested M25 travelling at 20-50mph on a road littered with cameras. In over forty years of driving all over the world I don't think I have ever felt so stressed and at risk.

Complete and utter madness.
Nobody said it was to do with safety, it is a speed management system. Of course if drivers complied with the system of speed limits it would be a safer place.
Perhaps the madness and tension was more to do with the drivers who surf between the cameras at high speed, especially those who seek them out with radar detectors.

Tablecloth

255 posts

92 months

Sunday 16th July 2017
quotequote all
Guybrush said:
Exactly. All about revenue as one would expect.
Highways England could have taken the option of doing F-All about the congestion issue and saved £billions on a speed management system. Then you could have come onto a motoring forum and whinged about Highways England doing F-All about the congestion on their roads while offering no alternative solution.
If the profit was £10,000,000/year, NOT revenue, then it would still take more than 100 years to recover the cost of the system so your 'revenue' charge simply makes no sense.

cmaguire

3,589 posts

115 months

Sunday 16th July 2017
quotequote all
[quote=Tablecloth]
Highways England could have taken the option of doing F-All about the congestion issue and saved £billions on a speed management system. Then you could have come onto a motoring forum and whinged about Highways England doing F-All about the congestion on their roads while offering no alternative solution.
If the profit was £10,000,000/year, NOT revenue, then it would still take more than 100 years to recover the cost of the system so your 'revenue' charge simply makes no sense.[/quote

Turn them all off and tell everyone they've all been turned off, and remove all the variable limits. Let's see how much slower we get from A to B.
I don't believe they have any positive impact on congestion in general, and only do so in certain circumstances at certain times by chance. Most of the time I expect they increase journey times. They are an unnecessary nuisance.

Tablecloth

255 posts

92 months

Sunday 16th July 2017
quotequote all
cmaguire said:
Tablecloth said:
Highways England could have taken the option of doing F-All about the congestion issue and saved £billions on a speed management system. Then you could have come onto a motoring forum and whinged about Highways England doing F-All about the congestion on their roads while offering no alternative solution.
If the profit was £10,000,000/year, NOT revenue, then it would still take more than 100 years to recover the cost of the system so your 'revenue' charge simply makes no sense.
Turn them all off and tell everyone they've all been turned off, and remove all the variable limits. Let's see how much slower we get from A to B.
I don't believe they have any positive impact on congestion in general, and only do so in certain circumstances at certain times by chance. Most of the time I expect they increase journey times. They are an unnecessary nuisance.
You can believe what you like but I've been travelling the length and breadth of the Uk since 1975 and I am still doing that. I have experienced the motorways before and after the use of the HADECS system. After is better than before.
You don't need your "turn them off and try it" test because the "turn them on and try it" has worked.
Perhaps your general dopeyness missed that test.