Undertaking on the motorway.

[RUSSELLM]

blindswelledrat said:

I think you need to be a little realistic about stopping distances on motorways. The highway code stopping distances are a little outdated for cars with modern brakes, and in any case leaving that distance is assuming the possibility that the car in front could possibly stop dead instantaneously with no warning. That doesnt happen often. Furthermore of you are leaving a gap of anything more than 100 feet on a busy motorway i would argue that there is no need for you to be in the outside lane. As it stands motorways are often "full" with cars leaving 30 feet stopping distance thus if each car left the required 315 feet there would only be room for 10% of the traffic on that motorway. It doesnt work.

I think the comments above could be part of the problem. In your mind, if I'm doing 70 stuck behind traffic & have left a distance of over 100 feet, you feel that I'm in the wrong lane & would see no problem in undertaking me.

I've no doubt there's motorists out there who think that distance should be 315 feet (legal), 200, 100 (like your self), 50 & a cars length (nutters) & there lies the problem.

We have a percentage of people, even on this small thread who think the highway code is wrong.

How can we ever expect everybody to drive the same ?

[Munter]

Jolley said:

Personally, I think there should be some time limit on hogging the wrong lane (say, 30secs without moving over is a £30 fine?). It would make people think about what they are doing, and then I could stop worrying about having to undertake them.

Before we start fineing people would it nob be nice to have a few adverts run on TV describing good motorway manners first. Then after 3 months fine them

[blindswelledrat]

RUSSELLM said:

blindswelledrat said: I think you need to be a little realistic about stopping distances on motorways. The highway code stopping distances are a little outdated for cars with modern brakes, and in any case leaving that distance is assuming the possibility that the car in front could possibly stop dead instantaneously with no warning. That doesnt happen often. Furthermore of you are leaving a gap of anything more than 100 feet on a busy motorway i would argue that there is no need for you to be in the outside lane. As it stands motorways are often "full" with cars leaving 30 feet stopping distance thus if each car left the required 315 feet there would only be room for 10% of the traffic on that motorway. It doesnt work. I think the comments above could be part of the problem. In your mind, if I'm doing 70 stuck behind traffic & have left a distance of over 100 feet, you feel that I'm in the wrong lane & would see no problem in undertaking me. I've no doubt there's motorists out there who think that distance should be 315 feet (legal), 200, 100 (like your self), 50 & a cars length (nutters) & there lies the problem. We have a percentage of people, even on this small thread who think the highway code is wrong. How can we ever expect everybody to drive the same ?

I used to have the same opinion as you and used to be furious when some tosser undertook me and halved my stopping distance.
One day, however, it occured to me that I was one of very few who left a decent stopping distances.
It was a conversation with a traffic policeman friend of mine that changed my opinion on this subject.

[Flat in Fifth]

gasman said:

FiF, I agree it's a bit lazy and the correct thing to do is obviously to overtake properly in lane 3, but the alternative, that I've seen many times, of pulling sharply across into lane 3 passing and then pulling sharply back into lane 1 to "make the point that they're in the wrong lane" I think is much worse than what I do.

100% agreement.

[timtonal]

All that is needed is a advert like

Think! Always keep left except when overtaking.

Would do a damn sight more for easing congestions and improving motorway safety than the current (lack of) policy.

And put it on those new matrix signs that are springing up everywhere more often.

[Munter]

guam said:

But come on guys at moderately high speeds when there is no reasonable braking distance left to both cars when you pull back in is damned dangerous.

Pull back in?... No no no. Stay in lane. If they are needlessly in a right hand lane why would you pull back in?...Just carry on.

[V8 Archie]

guam said:

Sorry I think people who undertake are total t****rs and should be jailed, allegedly this has happened to drivers at close to 100mph (cough) with a safe distance to the vehicle in front. It is without doubt the most dangerous thing you can do on the road other than tailgating imho. We all understand the frustration of people on the M4 in the outside lane at 35MPH (lived in the thames valley for 20 years), and it could be excused there to some degree. But come on guys at moderately high speeds when there is no reasonable braking distance left to both cars when you pull back in is damned dangerous.

Is it really? I always thought it was best practice to shoehorn myself into a gap no more than an inch longer than my car.

[Rob_the_Sparky]

As a general rule I do not undertake but I'm not sure about the rant that if you can be undertaken then you are always wrong.

Generally I'd agree but in the situation that there is a slow moving vehicle a few hundred yards in front of you and nose to tail traffic in the next lane you have a choice. Stay in lane 1 and get stuffed because no one will let you into lane 2 or move into lane 2 into a position where you can be undertaken.

Personally I'd move to lane 2 as I don't want to get stuffed and am not willing to move into lane 2 in a dangerous manner.

Rob

[SJobson]

guam said:

... allegedly this has happened to drivers at close to 100mph (cough) with a safe distance to the vehicle in front. It is without doubt the most dangerous thing you can do on the road other than tailgating imho...

It is irrelevant what speed you're doing - if you're in the outside lane and someone behind wants to go faster then why hold them up? If there's space for them to undertake then there's space for you to pull in. That's particularly the case if you're doing 100mph. Just because you're going over the speed limit doesn't mean people don't want to go faster.

And most dangerous thing? Well, if overtaking in any lane were legalised (properly, i.e. condoned) then it might not be such a bad thing.

[GreenV8S]

SJobson said:

If there's space for them to undertake then there's space for you to pull in.

There may be a gap big enough to fit a car in, but it doesn't mean that it's long enough for you to pull into safely and stay in for longer than a few seconds before being baulked by the car in front. The 'holier than thou' attitude that it should never be possible for somebody to undertake you just doesn't wash. If I'm stuck in traffic and held up by the car in front, I'll use the lane that causes the least disruption and agravation. Putting myself into a position where I am certain to be boxed in just isn't sensible.

If you have two lanes of cars maintaining a respectable separation then it's often possible to move left, undertake someone and pull out in front of them if you don't mind cutting people up. It doesn't necessarily follow that the car you've just undertaken should have moved left.

Put it another way. If I'm in a line of traffic in lane three moving steadily past a line of traffic in lane two, there will occasionally be gaps in lane two which I could move into briefly. Matey boy behind me might feel that I should move over for a couple of seconds to let him past. So, when I fail to move into the gap does he move into it instead? Of course not, he's too busy trying to scrape the paint off my rear bumper and willing me to get out of his way.

[SJobson]

Agreed. I was really referring to people undertaking you when you're doing 100mph - if there's enough space for that I imagine it's a fairly big gap, unless it's only McLaren F1 and Enzo owners pulling such manoeuvres.

[V8 Archie]

Lets get this right: no one is advocating cutting up up other drivers, sitting on other's boot lids or any other dangerous driving. In that context I stand by what I have said already.

Furthermore, if ther is a quarter mile queue of traffic plodding slowly past some mobile chicane in lane 2 (of a three lane carriageway) then not only am I within my rights to cruise up lane 2 and pul into lane 3 when it is safe to do so, but those in lane 3 are wasting road space.

All that is required is a little awareness and a zip-merge and not only does the tail-back reduce by half but - given proper lane discipline by those doing the overtaking - everyone gets past a little sooner.

The problem is that on dual carriageways (including motorways) the one person pushing in and throwing there weight around gains a lot. When everybody does it (or deliberately stops others from making full use of the road) everybody is slowed far more than if common sense and gentlemanly conduct were to prevail.

[deva link]

I've just come back from the 2 wks in Florida where lane discipline is non-existent (despite keep right signs) and under taking is supposed to be illegal.
However (generally) everyone just drives at a steady speed in their own lane, and the traffic, even on the busiest roads, flows well. You got the odd car weaving in and out, but it doesn’t seem to bother American drivers if someone cuts them up (you can’t let someone in as flashing headlights has no meaning, so people just cut in).

[soir]

I think there are some wrong assumtions on here about people being undertaken and therefore must have been in the wrong lane themselves.

I was talking about people undertaking you when you are in flowing traffic, i.e. 80mph, cars in front of you, you leave a safe gap and some idiot (who was behind you in your lane) uses lane 2 to undertake you.

If I'm in the 3rd lane and there is nothing in front of me, I will always move back into lane 2 when clear, but NOT if there are cars in front of me, because in my eyes I'm in a queue. Of course if too much distance between you and the car in front (large distance) and someone wants to pass, then I'll move over.

[dcb]

soir said:

I think there are some wrong assumtions on here about people being undertaken and therefore must have been in the wrong lane themselves. I was talking about people undertaking you when you are in flowing traffic, i.e. 80mph, cars in front of you, you leave a safe gap and some idiot (who was behind you in your lane) uses lane 2 to undertake you.

NO NO NO !

If some car behind you has enough room to undertake you by using lane 2, then surely you should have been in lane 2 yourself ?

I can't abide those folks who form long queues in lane 3 when lane 2 is empty.

We drive on the Left in the UK, independent of what's in front of you.

More bluntly, if there's 200 meters of empty tarmac on your left, then you are in the wrong lane.

[TripleS]

dcb said:

soir said: I think there are some wrong assumtions on here about people being undertaken and therefore must have been in the wrong lane themselves. I was talking about people undertaking you when you are in flowing traffic, i.e. 80mph, cars in front of you, you leave a safe gap and some idiot (who was behind you in your lane) uses lane 2 to undertake you. NO NO NO ! If some car behind you has enough room to undertake you by using lane 2, then surely you should have been in lane 2 yourself ? I can't abide those folks who form long queues in lane 3 when lane 2 is empty. We drive on the Left in the UK, independent of what's in front of you. More bluntly, if there's 200 meters of empty tarmac on your left, then you are in the wrong lane.

Beg pardon dcb, but I'm not sure you've quite got the measure of it there. (OK, end of joke mode).

If there is a queue of vehicles in lane 3 steadily passing widely spaced vehicles in lane 2, I think the lane 3 people are reluctant to move to lane 2 because they feel they will not be able to get back into lane 3 when they catch up the next vehicle in lane 2.

If that makes any sense to you, what do you suppose can be done to overcome that feeling?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Jolley]

TripleS said:

Beg pardon dcb, but I'm not sure you've quite got the measure of it there. (OK, end of joke mode). If there is a queue of vehicles in lane 3 steadily passing widely spaced vehicles in lane 2, I think the lane 3 people are reluctant to move to lane 2 because they feel they will not be able to get back into lane 3 when they catch up the next vehicle in lane 2. If that makes any sense to you, what do you suppose can be done to overcome that feeling? Best wishes all, Dave.

You have a very good point, and I do believe it is part of the problem (esp. on the M1 and M25). However, there would not be that fear of not getting back out if we all had the correct lane discipline in the first place. It is not an easy problem to solve, which is why I think that there should be some sort of fine for poor lane discipline.

Actually, whilst on fines. I was watching a programme about clampers the other day where someone can "legally" be fined £500+ for parking in the wrong place for a couple of minutes. Yet, to get caught on your mobile or without a seatbelt is only £30?!! (Though judging by the number of zombies in the middle lane on their mobiles on the A13, I could be mistaken for forgetting it was illegal to use your phone whilst driving!!)

[TripleS]

Jolley said:

TripleS said: Beg pardon dcb, but I'm not sure you've quite got the measure of it there. (OK, end of joke mode). If there is a queue of vehicles in lane 3 steadily passing widely spaced vehicles in lane 2, I think the lane 3 people are reluctant to move to lane 2 because they feel they will not be able to get back into lane 3 when they catch up the next vehicle in lane 2. If that makes any sense to you, what do you suppose can be done to overcome that feeling? Best wishes all, Dave. You have a very good point, and I do believe it is part of the problem (esp. on the M1 and M25). However, there would not be that fear of not getting back out if we all had the correct lane discipline in the first place. It is not an easy problem to solve, which is why I think that there should be some sort of fine for poor lane discipline.

It would indeed be nice if we had rather less selfishness and a bit more willingness to behave decently, in all respects. If we could just move things in that direction I'm sure we'd all get more of what we want.

If you don't mind I think I'll keep off the mobile phone aspect for the moment!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[docjan]

I have a rather nice video of some guy from another forum in a tuned S4 around 170 mph give or take 10 mph on a 2 lane autobahn.
Even M5's maxed out at 150 get over taken and every single one without fail moves over into the slower lane in time... even if it means slowing down at a safe point and then no doubt pulls back out.
The S4 slows down as neccesary... smooth well oiled machine, no ones out there in a "competition" or afraid of losing their place.

[dcb]

TripleS said:

If there is a queue of vehicles in lane 3 steadily passing widely spaced vehicles in lane 2, I think the lane 3 people are reluctant to move to lane 2 because they feel they will not be able to get back into lane 3 when they catch up the next vehicle in lane 2. If that makes any sense to you, what do you suppose can be done to overcome that feeling? Best wishes all, Dave.

It makes no sense whatever to me.

Not only does UK law say we drive left, its actually more efficient use of road to do so.

There are NO excuses for not driving left, in my opinion.

I have some solutions to the problem

1. Shoot stone dead all lane 3 hoggers.
2. Increase UK limit from 70 mph to 80 mph..
3. Introduce mandatory re-testing for all drivers every five years.

Against this, building wider roads won't really help. There will still be a queue in the right most lane.