"Hit me at 30..." Advert BS
Discussion
BOF said:
The MAIN, if not the ONLY, advantage of ABS is that you can STEER under braking...I have not seen conclusive data that says you stop quicker...happy to be corrected...
BOF.
In that respect I would think that a significant advantage of ABS is that it makes it possible for an unskilled driver to get somewhere close to the optimum performance. It may be that the very skilled driver could do better (on that one time in ten that they get it absolutely right) but ABS is IMO a great leveller and brings the poorer and less alert drivers up to par with the top 10% or so (perhaps better than that with the more modern systems). BOF.
GreenV8S said:
BOF said:
The MAIN, if not the ONLY, advantage of ABS is that you can STEER under braking...I have not seen conclusive data that says you stop quicker...happy to be corrected...
BOF.
In that respect I would think that a significant advantage of ABS is that it makes it possible for an unskilled driver to get somewhere close to the optimum performance. It may be that the very skilled driver could do better (on that one time in ten that they get it absolutely right) but ABS is IMO a great leveller and brings the poorer and less alert drivers up to par with the top 10% or so (perhaps better than that with the more modern systems). BOF.
Over confidence in, and ignorance of, ABS is, I reckon, as dangerous as thinking one session on a skid pan lets you drive faster on wet or icy roads...Canada and Sweden discourage short skid pan sessions for this reason.
BOF
Edited by BOF on Saturday 22 September 16:26
BOF said:
Agreed, but EVERY IAM Associate I have asked in 7 years has told me that 'ABS stops you quicker' - not ONE has mentioned the ability to steer away from a hazard...'Look where you want to go and STEER towards it..don't sit with ABS engaged while you hit the hazard'?
Over confidence in, and ignorance of, ABS is, I reckon, as dangerous as thinking one session on a skid pan lets you drive faster on wet or icy roads...Canada and Sweden discourage short skid pan sessions for this reason.
BOF
That lack of understanding is disappointing but sadly not surprising. Over confidence in, and ignorance of, ABS is, I reckon, as dangerous as thinking one session on a skid pan lets you drive faster on wet or icy roads...Canada and Sweden discourage short skid pan sessions for this reason.
BOF
bryan35 said:
seen that add. All very sensible and on average I can see the point,
what it misses is the fact that if the girl keeps running out in front of cars, it's inevitable that she's going to get hit by one, and even at 30mph there's a 1 in 5 chance she'll get killed.
it also misses the point that how hard you hit someone is based on Mass x velocity squared, and that in fact even carrying passengers increases the kinetic energy. going to try to do some quick maths...............
(relative values just for comparison)
1000kg car with a 75kg passenger = 1075
velocity = 30mph
30 squared x 1075 = 967500
1000kg car with 75kg driver and 75kg passenger
mass is now 1150
divided into 967500 is 841 (ish)
square root of 841 is 29.
so adding a 75kg passenger is the the same (kinetic energy wise) as adding 1MPH to your speed.
so 4 passengers would be 4MPH. or if they are 14 stone lads and not just under 12 stone, 5MPH to the speed.
ish......... sort of. But you get the idea.
then add in how full the fuel tank is - another 55kg. - nearly 1 MPH.
interstingly, as the velocity is squared, the weight difference is more significant at lower speeds, and yet is ignored but the 20's plenty lot.
- Wet/drywhat it misses is the fact that if the girl keeps running out in front of cars, it's inevitable that she's going to get hit by one, and even at 30mph there's a 1 in 5 chance she'll get killed.
it also misses the point that how hard you hit someone is based on Mass x velocity squared, and that in fact even carrying passengers increases the kinetic energy. going to try to do some quick maths...............
(relative values just for comparison)
1000kg car with a 75kg passenger = 1075
velocity = 30mph
30 squared x 1075 = 967500
1000kg car with 75kg driver and 75kg passenger
mass is now 1150
divided into 967500 is 841 (ish)
square root of 841 is 29.
so adding a 75kg passenger is the the same (kinetic energy wise) as adding 1MPH to your speed.
so 4 passengers would be 4MPH. or if they are 14 stone lads and not just under 12 stone, 5MPH to the speed.
ish......... sort of. But you get the idea.
then add in how full the fuel tank is - another 55kg. - nearly 1 MPH.
interstingly, as the velocity is squared, the weight difference is more significant at lower speeds, and yet is ignored but the 20's plenty lot.
- Uphill/downhill
- Tread depth in the wet
Are all extremely important variables. In fact the effect of 'wet' is likely to be much bigger than the effect of +5mph. So if you believe the hype: "Rain kills".
Jasandjules said:
Of course, no matter what, ANY set of braking figures are only relevent to the conditions at the time, and the vehicle etc.. as different cars with less weight and better brakes will stop faster (in theory!) and large 4*4s with 2 tonnes to slow down will stop in a greater distance (unless they have super duper uprated brakes etc.)??!
The more mass a vehicle has, the more it presses its tyres into the road...Two things limit braking:
- The ability of the brakes to disipate energy as heat
- The level of grip.
Poor damping, worn bushes, or unbalanced wheels will have a more detrimental effect on braking than extra weight.
fluffnik said:
Jasandjules said:
Of course, no matter what, ANY set of braking figures are only relevent to the conditions at the time, and the vehicle etc.. as different cars with less weight and better brakes will stop faster (in theory!) and large 4*4s with 2 tonnes to slow down will stop in a greater distance (unless they have super duper uprated brakes etc.)??!
The more mass a vehicle has, the more it presses its tyres into the road...Two things limit braking:
- The ability of the brakes to disipate energy as heat
- The level of grip.
Poor damping, worn bushes, or unbalanced wheels will have a more detrimental effect on braking than extra weight.
BOF said:
The MAIN, if not the ONLY, advantage of ABS is that you can STEER under braking...I have not seen conclusive data that says you stop quicker on dry roads...happy to be corrected...
BOF.
Bang on the money.BOF.
I would wager most folks will stand on the brakes, the ABS kicks in, and they still plough into the object, frozen to the wheel. Stamp on the brakes and steer around it, that's what ABS is for. In the dry, stopping distances are increased with ABS. In the wet though, whole different scenario.
Years and years ago, Mazda had to withdraw a whole range of adverts, because in many of the scenarios that were pictured, extolling the virtues of ABS, the car would have stopped quicker without it. The stag on the bone dry road, and the sand on the beach, and the deep snow at some ski resort were but three of them.
Balmoral Green said:
BOF said:
The MAIN, if not the ONLY, advantage of ABS is that you can STEER under braking...I have not seen conclusive data that says you stop quicker on dry roads...happy to be corrected...
BOF.
Bang on the money.BOF.
I would wager most folks will stand on the brakes, the ABS kicks in, and they still plough into the object, frozen to the wheel. Stamp on the brakes and steer around it, that's what ABS is for. In the dry, stopping distances are increased with ABS. In the wet though, whole different scenario.
GreenV8S said:
BOF said:
Agreed, but EVERY IAM Associate I have asked in 7 years has told me that 'ABS stops you quicker' - not ONE has mentioned the ability to steer away from a hazard...'Look where you want to go and STEER towards it..don't sit with ABS engaged while you hit the hazard'?
Over confidence in, and ignorance of, ABS is, I reckon, as dangerous as thinking one session on a skid pan lets you drive faster on wet or icy roads...Canada and Sweden discourage short skid pan sessions for this reason.
BOF
That lack of understanding is disappointing but sadly not surprising. Over confidence in, and ignorance of, ABS is, I reckon, as dangerous as thinking one session on a skid pan lets you drive faster on wet or icy roads...Canada and Sweden discourage short skid pan sessions for this reason.
BOF
It is not only ABS - I started this week with a Landcruiser punter, and three weeks ago with a Rav4 driver - both autos.
Neither had EVER changed down a cog - when I suggested moving down, both said 'But this is automatic'...I had to read the book in the Rav to find how to move down one cog.
Happens every time...when they feel the 'smoother' coming in on the B roads, a wee smile appears..."Less brakes?, car balanced?...feel better?...pull over and we will look at the limit point and discuss Speed to Vision".
And, as with ABS, I am with drivers who are taking the trouble to get to 'O' level...Trafpol have the job of clearing up the wet bits of the 3500 or so, killed, not including KSI, every year - in the time it has taken me to write this reply - on an average day, someone has died on our roads - one of ten today...I just heard on TV that a fatal accident costs £1.5 Million ( I think that's Billhooks personally)...but back to my point above about the cost of free mandatory further education versus the costs of 'incidents'...financial and emotional.
BOF
BOF said:
delboy735 said:
I'd like to meet the Police driver who was able to apply 95% braking to the car many times over for those results. He must have been some kind of Robot.
Besides, nowadays, surely 100% braking is better now that we have ABS. Indeed, most drivers have never even had the ABS kicking through the pedal at them anyway.
The MAIN, if not the ONLY, advantage of ABS is that you can STEER under braking...I have not seen conclusive data that says you stop quicker on dry roads...happy to be corrected...Besides, nowadays, surely 100% braking is better now that we have ABS. Indeed, most drivers have never even had the ABS kicking through the pedal at them anyway.
BOF.
Edited by BOF on Saturday 22 September 15:51
http://www.movit.de/rahmen/stoptbl.htm
Just blown that one out of the water I think.
Delboy,
"Just blown that one out of the water I think."
I have beat the Highway Code figures...by quite a few feet...on Millbrook...under test conditions...'best out of three' kind of thing.
I was aware that I had to hit the brakes at a certain point, I had John Lyon sitting in the left seat, tyres at the correct pressures, 5mm all round on Pirellis... warm after lapping the constant speed circuit at 130...
The day cost me about £700 to discover the limits of my motor, and my ability...the HC figures must cater for the average driver...if they published figures for every eventuality, car condition, driver condition, road condition, tyre condition...we would need a hand to lift the book...???
In case you think I am a 'Know it all' - I am currently learning from two Class 1s who have probably forgotten more than I will ever know.
BOF.
"Just blown that one out of the water I think."
I have beat the Highway Code figures...by quite a few feet...on Millbrook...under test conditions...'best out of three' kind of thing.
I was aware that I had to hit the brakes at a certain point, I had John Lyon sitting in the left seat, tyres at the correct pressures, 5mm all round on Pirellis... warm after lapping the constant speed circuit at 130...
The day cost me about £700 to discover the limits of my motor, and my ability...the HC figures must cater for the average driver...if they published figures for every eventuality, car condition, driver condition, road condition, tyre condition...we would need a hand to lift the book...???
In case you think I am a 'Know it all' - I am currently learning from two Class 1s who have probably forgotten more than I will ever know.
BOF.
Edited by BOF on Saturday 22 September 21:43
Would love to know if there are stats showing how many deaths / serious accidents happen in poor weather i.e. Rain mist and fog as i believe these are the single biggest factors especially as we are an island with lots of hills and endless rain.
Pre-ABS i noticed that many cars i drove had appauling brake balance, some (Sierra) would lock the fronts without even generating any weight transfer and i remember seeing a Lada and a mini locking the rears - at least ABS gets rid of this issue.
I properly set up car does not need ABS, its really for the in-experienced drivers / poorly set up cars that exist on our roads.
On the note of speed in residential areas - you cannot really make that much impression on your overall journey time by hustling along so it makes sense to cruise and spend the time watching for cars pulling out and footballs bouncing across the road
You wants a dead child on their conscience no matter how reckless they have been or educated. ?
Pre-ABS i noticed that many cars i drove had appauling brake balance, some (Sierra) would lock the fronts without even generating any weight transfer and i remember seeing a Lada and a mini locking the rears - at least ABS gets rid of this issue.
I properly set up car does not need ABS, its really for the in-experienced drivers / poorly set up cars that exist on our roads.
On the note of speed in residential areas - you cannot really make that much impression on your overall journey time by hustling along so it makes sense to cruise and spend the time watching for cars pulling out and footballs bouncing across the road
You wants a dead child on their conscience no matter how reckless they have been or educated. ?
Pork_n_Beem said:
Would love to know if there are stats showing how many deaths / serious accidents happen in poor weather i.e. Rain mist and fog as i believe these are the single biggest factors especially as we are an island with lots of hills and endless rain.
Pre-ABS i noticed that many cars i drove had appauling brake balance, some (Sierra) would lock the fronts without even generating any weight transfer and i remember seeing a Lada and a mini locking the rears - at least ABS gets rid of this issue.
I properly set up car does not need ABS, its really for the in-experienced drivers / poorly set up cars that exist on our roads.
On the note of speed in residential areas - you cannot really make that much impression on your overall journey time by hustling along so it makes sense to cruise and spend the time watching for cars pulling out and footballs bouncing across the road
You wants a dead child on their conscience no matter how reckless they have been or educated. ?
Pork,Pre-ABS i noticed that many cars i drove had appauling brake balance, some (Sierra) would lock the fronts without even generating any weight transfer and i remember seeing a Lada and a mini locking the rears - at least ABS gets rid of this issue.
I properly set up car does not need ABS, its really for the in-experienced drivers / poorly set up cars that exist on our roads.
On the note of speed in residential areas - you cannot really make that much impression on your overall journey time by hustling along so it makes sense to cruise and spend the time watching for cars pulling out and footballs bouncing across the road
You wants a dead child on their conscience no matter how reckless they have been or educated. ?
"Rain mist and fog as i believe these are the single biggest factors especially as we are an island with lots of hills and endless rain."
Not sure pal...look at the International KSI figures...the most dangerous countries...Portugal, Greece, Turkey etc, don't have a lot of rain...the UK is one of the safest countries, statistically.
Finland is one of the safest...Google the Finnish driving test.
BOF.
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