Discussion
Carl - I think it was a dummy, so it was incapable of independant thought or action. (Insert your own politician joke here).
Unlike a child, who is capable of both, and hence can end up in dangerous situations. (Yeah, yeah, where are the couch potato parents blah blah). Am I the only parent to object to offensive terminology such as "brat" and "god damn kid"? Were you never a child yourself?
Esselte - Get real, educate yourself. Do you really think you are safer driving past one of these at 50mph or whatever, eyes glued to the speedo, attention diverted, than driving past at 80mph concentrating on the task at hand? Do you really think that it is safe for people to emergency brake in dense traffic for no other reason than to avoid a speeding ticket?
Oh, and you are welcome to follow closely behind my A8 in a non-ABS vehicle while I test my brakes, any time you want. Except for a very skilled driver in ideal conditions, of course ABS reduces braking distance. I spy a Transport2000 mole in the ranks chaps!
Phil
Edited by philshort on Thursday 17th January 19:39
Unlike a child, who is capable of both, and hence can end up in dangerous situations. (Yeah, yeah, where are the couch potato parents blah blah). Am I the only parent to object to offensive terminology such as "brat" and "god damn kid"? Were you never a child yourself?
Esselte - Get real, educate yourself. Do you really think you are safer driving past one of these at 50mph or whatever, eyes glued to the speedo, attention diverted, than driving past at 80mph concentrating on the task at hand? Do you really think that it is safe for people to emergency brake in dense traffic for no other reason than to avoid a speeding ticket?
Oh, and you are welcome to follow closely behind my A8 in a non-ABS vehicle while I test my brakes, any time you want. Except for a very skilled driver in ideal conditions, of course ABS reduces braking distance. I spy a Transport2000 mole in the ranks chaps! Phil
Edited by philshort on Thursday 17th January 19:39
/engineer mode on 
a modern top car will brake at about 10 m/s² = a.
v = 35mph= approx. 15 m/s.
Stopping distance s = v²/2a
so at 35 mph stopping distance is around 11.25 metres
or around 13 yds.
At 30 mph = 13.55 m/s stopping distance is around 9.2 m
so the 5mph make a difference in braking time of around 2 metres, less than half a cars length. 2 metres before stopping, the car would still be travelling at around 4 mph - hardly life-threatening.
Problem is the reaction time. Even 1 s reaction time makes only a difference of less than 1.5 m, in total 3.5 m, which is less than a cars length. 3.5 metres before stopping the car would be doing around 5.5 mph.
engineer mode off /
The whole advert is crap though anyway. Why factor a reaction time into the equation when the kid is standing in the middle of the road anyway? The road is straight, you would have seen the kid a mile away. The rear wheels don't brake at all.
Rgds, WalterU
a modern top car will brake at about 10 m/s² = a.
v = 35mph= approx. 15 m/s.
Stopping distance s = v²/2a
so at 35 mph stopping distance is around 11.25 metres
or around 13 yds.
At 30 mph = 13.55 m/s stopping distance is around 9.2 m
so the 5mph make a difference in braking time of around 2 metres, less than half a cars length. 2 metres before stopping, the car would still be travelling at around 4 mph - hardly life-threatening.
Problem is the reaction time. Even 1 s reaction time makes only a difference of less than 1.5 m, in total 3.5 m, which is less than a cars length. 3.5 metres before stopping the car would be doing around 5.5 mph.
engineer mode off /
The whole advert is crap though anyway. Why factor a reaction time into the equation when the kid is standing in the middle of the road anyway? The road is straight, you would have seen the kid a mile away. The rear wheels don't brake at all.
Rgds, WalterU
quote:Tell me, what aspect of safety is addressed by cameras? They make us slow down? Well duh..
You've got to admit though that gatsos do operate as safety cameras,I mean when one of them has got you hands up all those who speed past it a 2nd time??
They make people slow down (sometimes braking dangerously hard) when they spot the camera.. then once past the camera, the drivers will return to their original speed... so simply speaking, doing 80 down a road, slowing to 55 just before then camera and then returning to 80 just after it... we see it happen everyday, so don't try and say it isn't so....
Unattended speed cameras of whatever type offer no tangible safety benefit and serve only to fleece the motorist as another back-door way for this government to rake in some money which they haven't got the balls to do by raising income tax as they'd dearly love to.
There is no statistical evidence whatsoever that cameras have in anyway contributed to reducing the number of people killed or seriously injured on the road. In fact the recent figures published by Essex show a 30% increase in road deaths since they massively increased the number of cameras. Not necessarily cause and effect I'll grant you, but certainly nothing to show cameras making a positive impact.
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I might be wrong here but doesn't ABS increase stopping distance since the amount of friction is reduced as a result of the wheels not locking up?
What ABS does do is provide the ability to steer, so you don't come off the road if braking on a corner or you can avoid an obsticle in the road, while braking.
Edited by macca on Thursday 17th January 20:15
What ABS does do is provide the ability to steer, so you don't come off the road if braking on a corner or you can avoid an obsticle in the road, while braking.
Edited by macca on Thursday 17th January 20:15
quote:
Unlike a child, who is capable of both, and hence can end up in dangerous situations. (Yeah, yeah, where are the couch potato parents blah blah). Am I the only parent to object to offensive terminology such as "brat" and "god damn kid"? Were you never a child yourself?
I think it is safe to assume that he was a child once. And speaking as a former God damned brat, can't see what's so offensive.
And Macca, locked up wheels don't slow you down much. You get much more grip while the wheels are still turning, so ABS allows you to break harder without the risk of increasing your stopping distance with a skid.
Edited by ATG on Thursday 17th January 20:24
Quote from Transport Canada:
"Is the stopping distance shorter with ABS?
No! From early commercials, it may have looked like you could stop on a dime. That instantaneous stop is not realistic. When braking on dry or wet roads your stopping distance will be about the same as with conventional brakes.
You should allow for a longer stopping distance with ABS than for conventional brakes when driving on gravel, slush, and snow. This is because the rotating tire will stay on top of this low traction road surface covering, and effectively "float" on this boundary layer.
A non ABS braked vehicle can lock its tires and create a snow plow effect in front of the tires which helps slow the vehicle. These locked tires can often find more traction below this boundary layer."
Quote from Motorworld:
"Previous generations of antilock braking systems (ABS) from BMW and others were criticized because an experienced rider could sometimes beat the system - that is, could stop harder than the ABS would allow him or her to do. Now, with new generation ABS, it's almost impossible to beat the system - and easily possible that the system might beat you. "
The new generation outlined above anticipates that the pedal is being pressed and applies the brake quicker than the driver can push
Edited by macca on Thursday 17th January 20:38
"Is the stopping distance shorter with ABS?
No! From early commercials, it may have looked like you could stop on a dime. That instantaneous stop is not realistic. When braking on dry or wet roads your stopping distance will be about the same as with conventional brakes.
You should allow for a longer stopping distance with ABS than for conventional brakes when driving on gravel, slush, and snow. This is because the rotating tire will stay on top of this low traction road surface covering, and effectively "float" on this boundary layer.
A non ABS braked vehicle can lock its tires and create a snow plow effect in front of the tires which helps slow the vehicle. These locked tires can often find more traction below this boundary layer."
Quote from Motorworld:
"Previous generations of antilock braking systems (ABS) from BMW and others were criticized because an experienced rider could sometimes beat the system - that is, could stop harder than the ABS would allow him or her to do. Now, with new generation ABS, it's almost impossible to beat the system - and easily possible that the system might beat you. "
The new generation outlined above anticipates that the pedal is being pressed and applies the brake quicker than the driver can push
Edited by macca on Thursday 17th January 20:38
quote:
I spy a Transport2000 mole in the ranks chaps!
Phil
Edited by philshort on Thursday 17th January 19:39
Yum Yum
Esselte apologies for missunderstanding you. The answer to your question is complex as you can see from the other posts but in the context of the advert the answer is yes because unlocked wheels stop faster than locked ones. Oh sh*t Except in snow.. OK soft snow...
Macca I read your stuff and yes a expert Caddence braker(think thats how you spell it) will compete with an ABS system but the average driver just shoving his size 10 down as hard as poss will just lock up and stay locked up so the ABS system wins.
Edited by nonegreen on Thursday 17th January 22:25
Just to add my tuppence... have done all three of the Audi safety courses (which I may add are vastly better than IAM!!IMHO) and their view on ABS braking is as follows, and I can agree from experience with this.
2 cars exactly the same to 50mph; one with, one without ABS, + good dry conditions. The non-ABS car will stop about 1-1.5m shorter than the ABS car due to full lock-up. We're speaking ONLY about distance here NOT control.
Any speed higher than 50mph/80kph the rubber will melt and smear and the ABS car will stop shorter! and don't believe the bullshit about cadence braking! NO-ONE can brake as fast as ABS with cadence braking, or can you floor the pedal 20 times a second? BUT cadence braking is better than no ABS!!!
Snow, mud, gravel etc.... that's why Audi originally had an off-switch for the ABS. They dropped it about 5 years ago as statistically it wasn't relevant with the "new" ABS types. My Audi will stop on hard packed snow from 60mph/100kph in around 37meters........ drive to the conditions guys (+ gals)!
2 cars exactly the same to 50mph; one with, one without ABS, + good dry conditions. The non-ABS car will stop about 1-1.5m shorter than the ABS car due to full lock-up. We're speaking ONLY about distance here NOT control.
Any speed higher than 50mph/80kph the rubber will melt and smear and the ABS car will stop shorter! and don't believe the bullshit about cadence braking! NO-ONE can brake as fast as ABS with cadence braking, or can you floor the pedal 20 times a second? BUT cadence braking is better than no ABS!!!
Snow, mud, gravel etc.... that's why Audi originally had an off-switch for the ABS. They dropped it about 5 years ago as statistically it wasn't relevant with the "new" ABS types. My Audi will stop on hard packed snow from 60mph/100kph in around 37meters........ drive to the conditions guys (+ gals)!
Apologies if I offended you there Phil, but I hate kids, so most of them are Brats to me, especially one who has just walked in front of a car on a straight road(quite often I watch them at the side of the road, look straight at me, then step in front of me causing me to brake/swerve - Is this Becuase they think the Car Driver will always get done ??? ). I was taught to stop/look/listen and it has stopped me getting run over for a few years now 
I can`t get my head round the Ice/Snow bit though
, cause when I drove my BMW (with ABS) in the ice/snow/slush it stopped far better and with more control than any other car I have owned (My experience in snow is limited due to driving in the UK). I would have thought that slush/snow could act like water and cause a sorta aquaplane type effect under heavy braking which to me would mean ABS would be better..Just me being thick I guess.
When I lived in Canada in winter people put Chains on the tyres
for grip - Not cadence braking
The other point I was trying to make is that most cars nowadays brake far more efficiently than when the stopping distances (i.e. the brakes aren't made of wood now
) were created ???
And yes, someone did complain about the advert (the reply was posted on here I think) and you'll be shocked to hear that the advert is fine...
I can`t get my head round the Ice/Snow bit though
, cause when I drove my BMW (with ABS) in the ice/snow/slush it stopped far better and with more control than any other car I have owned (My experience in snow is limited due to driving in the UK). I would have thought that slush/snow could act like water and cause a sorta aquaplane type effect under heavy braking which to me would mean ABS would be better..Just me being thick I guess. When I lived in Canada in winter people put Chains on the tyres
for grip - Not cadence braking The other point I was trying to make is that most cars nowadays brake far more efficiently than when the stopping distances (i.e. the brakes aren't made of wood now
) were created ??? And yes, someone did complain about the advert (the reply was posted on here I think) and you'll be shocked to hear that the advert is fine...
Sorry, which part of "god damn kid" caused offense? Please read all of this carefully.
If the little brat hadn't been in the road, it wouldn't have messed up someones life, their police record, their insurance prospects, their car, their job, and their future.
When I was at school, we were taught that ROADS ARE DANGEROUS. KEEP OFF THEM.
Thus we did. And only 1 kid out of a 1500 child school got killed, in 12 years of education.
I have a problem with the current view of the government, where they encourage kids to play on the street (where a park would be more appropiate). Bloody children round our way are arrogant little sh*ts who deserve to be knocked down. They deliberatly run out in front of you - chicken?
You complain to their sh*t parents, and maybe you get a punch in the mouth for telling them "how to control their kids".
So get real. Accidents are not just the fault of car drivers - the moronic parents are to blame, and their idiotic spawn.
Now that doesn't mean I'm haveing a go at any of you lot, because I am certain that you aren't that sort of parent.
Everyone understands that kids can do stupid things, like run after a ball - but that is sort of expected, and ok. Everyone makes mistakes.
HOWEVER: What IS NOT ACCEPTABLE is this stupid "dare" mentality where children play chicken with cars, and the car drivers get done for it.
No one want to hurt anyone, so please don't be offended by the terms used.
Hey, if you so much as clip a kid, and it is their fault - you get a record, and may find insurance difficult. You may also get an unjustified kicking from a hard bastard parent.
So, "god damn brat" ? god damn right. Keep them outta the road and we'll get on just fine.
Carl
If the little brat hadn't been in the road, it wouldn't have messed up someones life, their police record, their insurance prospects, their car, their job, and their future.
When I was at school, we were taught that ROADS ARE DANGEROUS. KEEP OFF THEM.
Thus we did. And only 1 kid out of a 1500 child school got killed, in 12 years of education.
I have a problem with the current view of the government, where they encourage kids to play on the street (where a park would be more appropiate). Bloody children round our way are arrogant little sh*ts who deserve to be knocked down. They deliberatly run out in front of you - chicken?
You complain to their sh*t parents, and maybe you get a punch in the mouth for telling them "how to control their kids".
So get real. Accidents are not just the fault of car drivers - the moronic parents are to blame, and their idiotic spawn.
Now that doesn't mean I'm haveing a go at any of you lot, because I am certain that you aren't that sort of parent.
Everyone understands that kids can do stupid things, like run after a ball - but that is sort of expected, and ok. Everyone makes mistakes.
HOWEVER: What IS NOT ACCEPTABLE is this stupid "dare" mentality where children play chicken with cars, and the car drivers get done for it.
No one want to hurt anyone, so please don't be offended by the terms used.
Hey, if you so much as clip a kid, and it is their fault - you get a record, and may find insurance difficult. You may also get an unjustified kicking from a hard bastard parent.
So, "god damn brat" ? god damn right. Keep them outta the road and we'll get on just fine.
Carl
Sorry to disappoint chaps but I'm nothing to do with Transport 2000.I was just asking a simple question about ABS.I thought it was developed to give some steering control when breaking hard 'cos obviously you've lost that the moment the wheels lock.And I'm sorry you didn't spot the sarcasm in the post about gatso's.Ah well I'll try again in a while.
esselte - use smileys to help with sarcasm then you win't get attacked!) I hate the advert it says all the wrong things "30mph is safe in a built up area with kids playing in the street". "Speed is the killer...not the fact the driver wasn't paying any attention or that the car is badly in need of a service for its brakes and suspension). First time I have ever seen a car lock up and have its rear wheels still turning... Am I right in it saying its 21feet extra from 35mph Where has this figure come from? Thats 7 metres utter rubbish.
I am so glad the Warwickshire fuzz are going to paint their cameras - they might even check if they are working. I lost a Chimaera (and nearly my life) when an imbecile pulled out in front of me without looking or indicating. Standing on the brakes and losing the rear end, the moron merrily drove off leaving carnage behind him right under the M40/42 junction cameras - which (you guessed it) were "not recording". The culprit was never found, but interestingly I was not charged even with DWDC&A - perhaps the cameras had recognised the miscreant - ?son or brother of Plod?.
PS I was not speeding and as usual the accident was down to poor attention & not following the simplest rules of the road NOT SPEED.
PS I was not speeding and as usual the accident was down to poor attention & not following the simplest rules of the road NOT SPEED.
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