Emergency legislation - information and commentary
Discussion
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9593865/B...
It is good news if it is the case, although I'm sure some on here would disagree and suggest 'No jab, extermination at dawn' would be a better policy.
DM said:
Private sector employers have also been warned by the government that 'no jab, no job' policies are illegal.
Have they??It is good news if it is the case, although I'm sure some on here would disagree and suggest 'No jab, extermination at dawn' would be a better policy.
RSTurboPaul said:
It is good news if it is the case, although I'm sure some on here would disagree and suggest 'No jab, extermination at dawn' would be a better policy.
I would also accept hanging 
More seriously, it's an interesting point. I wouldn't have thought that vax status is a protected characteristic (unlike gender, age, religion, disability etc) - usually it is then the employer's prerogative whether to employ someone or not. Similarly a private business such as a pub or hotel generally has discretion over who they let in, except for these protected characteristics.
I am sure we will see it in the courts one way or another quite soon.
NickCQ said:
RSTurboPaul said:
It is good news if it is the case, although I'm sure some on here would disagree and suggest 'No jab, extermination at dawn' would be a better policy.
I would also accept hanging More seriously, it's an interesting point. I wouldn't have thought that vax status is a protected characteristic (unlike gender, age, religion, disability etc) - usually it is then the employer's prerogative whether to employ someone or not. Similarly a private business such as a pub or hotel generally has discretion over who they let in, except for these protected characteristics.
I am sure we will see it in the courts one way or another quite soon.
NickCQ said:
I would also accept hanging
More seriously, it's an interesting point. I wouldn't have thought that vax status is a protected characteristic (unlike gender, age, religion, disability etc) - usually it is then the employer's prerogative whether to employ someone or not. Similarly a private business such as a pub or hotel generally has discretion over who they let in, except for these protected characteristics.
I am sure we will see it in the courts one way or another quite soon.
Would it need to be a protected characteristic? If you fire someone due to their being unvaccinated, could it give rise to a claim for unfair dismissal (subject to usual rules about length of employment)?More seriously, it's an interesting point. I wouldn't have thought that vax status is a protected characteristic (unlike gender, age, religion, disability etc) - usually it is then the employer's prerogative whether to employ someone or not. Similarly a private business such as a pub or hotel generally has discretion over who they let in, except for these protected characteristics.
I am sure we will see it in the courts one way or another quite soon.
RSTurboPaul said:
Two-thirds of india has antibodies:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9595033/C...
And all that without vaccination of the entire population.
c. 10% of the population has had at least a first dose (https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=IND)https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9595033/C...
And all that without vaccination of the entire population.
India's new case & test positivity rate peaked in the first week of May so they are (thankfully) past the worst, we should be seeing that in hospitalisations and deaths imminently. It is still a bit depressing that you can still get 250k new cases a day with >60% antibodies, my memory was that we originally thought that >60% antibodies was effectively herd immunity territory.
I suppose there are massive regional variations in that 60% though.
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Would it need to be a protected characteristic? If you fire someone due to their being unvaccinated, could it give rise to a claim for unfair dismissal (subject to usual rules about length of employment)?
IANAEmpL but I suspect the threshold for firing someone is much higher than for choosing not to hire them? Agree that firing someone for not having a jab seems highly inequitable, particularly if that employee could be restaffed in a lower contact role / outdoors / whatever.NickCQ said:
RSTurboPaul said:
Two-thirds of india has antibodies:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9595033/C...
And all that without vaccination of the entire population.
c. 10% of the population has had at least a first dose (https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=IND)https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9595033/C...
And all that without vaccination of the entire population.
India's new case & test positivity rate peaked in the first week of May so they are (thankfully) past the worst, we should be seeing that in hospitalisations and deaths imminently. It is still a bit depressing that you can still get 250k new cases a day with >60% antibodies, my memory was that we originally thought that >60% antibodies was effectively herd immunity territory.
I suppose there are massive regional variations in that 60% though.
And that's ignoring the fact that a 'case' of Covid is 'a positive test for Covid', as opposed to the apparently now historic definition of a 'case' being 'a positive test + symptoms'.
RSTurboPaul said:
Don't forget that 'cases' are pretty irrelevant if only a low % are getting seriously ill.
True, but absent targeted vaccination or effective shielding of the most vulnerable groups, there's no reason why the % of cases that lead to serious illness should vary materially over time. I don't really know how well India is doing on either of the former. But they do have demographics on their side with a generally younger population than Western countries.NickCQ said:
IANAEmpL but I suspect the threshold for firing someone is much higher than for choosing not to hire them? Agree that firing someone for not having a jab seems highly inequitable, particularly if that employee could be restaffed in a lower contact role / outdoors / whatever.
Apologies, I skim read and assumed you were discussing employees being terminated rather than hired or not hired.Not specifically legislation... yet... but to pick up a post from the other thread, the NHS App appears to be designed to contain a lot more than just 'health data' - which suggests the plan is to roll out Vaccine Passports and lead into Digital ID and all that entails in terms of legislation.
To quote myself, amongst others, because it's the quickest way of doing it:
This is the bit that’s going to screw up all the sheeple who think its ‘no biggie’. Lifestyle? Like a glass of wine or two? Like going out for meals? Had a bit of depression or trouble sleeping in the past? Family history of cancer? Been in a dispute with a neighbour? Been bankrupt? Did something stupid as a youth to get a police record? Dont worry it will all be made available to those that have your best interests at heart, honest guv.I might (hopefully) have misunderstood.
'Information relating to the family of the individual and the individual’s lifestyle and social circumstances' will be contained on the NHS app??
Sounds like it will be akin to the Chinese social credit system.
More scary than any virus.Also on the list of 'Personal Details':
Vehicle registration number.
National Insurance (NINO) number.
Employer details.
Occupation details.I predict more smearing of 'anti vaxxer refuseniks' 
, over the next few weeks, then come June 21st, 'Oh look, this marginal percentage of people not wanting to be vaccinated means we simply must roll out Vaccine Passports that we conveniently have been working on.'
I would hope some legal challenge comes of it but I won't hold out hope.
Of course, I'm sure it's 'no biggie' to some.
To quote myself, amongst others, because it's the quickest way of doing it:
RSTurboPaul said:
GMT13 said:
soofsayer said:
J210 said:
From big brother watch on twitter : https://twitter.com/BigBrotherWatch/status/1395047...
The Covid vaccine status feature is now *live* on the NHS app - supposedly, for international travel.
But a close read of the privacy notice reveals:
"this data will be useful for further aspects of unlocking as they arise, e.g. (..) attendance at domestic events
It says the vaccine pass will be used:
"both during and after the Government roadmap allows citizens to emerge from the restrictions"
It confirms our fear that
@michaelgove
's review is a fig leaf - Parliament & the public have been sidelined yet again.
Some interesting special cat data. Only the first one is currently used.
https://covid-status.service.nhsx.nhs.uk/help/priv...
Special Category Data
Information relating to the individual’s physical or mental health condition. - Used in Certificate
Information relating to the family of the individual and the individual’s lifestyle and social circumstances.
Information which relates to the ethnic origin of the individual.
Information relating to genetic /biometric details (where processed to uniquely identify an individual)
Criminal convictions or alleged criminal behaviour
Special category data is very interesting.The Covid vaccine status feature is now *live* on the NHS app - supposedly, for international travel.
But a close read of the privacy notice reveals:
"this data will be useful for further aspects of unlocking as they arise, e.g. (..) attendance at domestic events
It says the vaccine pass will be used:
"both during and after the Government roadmap allows citizens to emerge from the restrictions"
It confirms our fear that
@michaelgove
's review is a fig leaf - Parliament & the public have been sidelined yet again.
Some interesting special cat data. Only the first one is currently used.
https://covid-status.service.nhsx.nhs.uk/help/priv...
Special Category Data
Information relating to the individual’s physical or mental health condition. - Used in Certificate
Information relating to the family of the individual and the individual’s lifestyle and social circumstances.
Information which relates to the ethnic origin of the individual.
Information relating to genetic /biometric details (where processed to uniquely identify an individual)
Criminal convictions or alleged criminal behaviour
This is the bit that’s going to screw up all the sheeple who think its ‘no biggie’. Lifestyle? Like a glass of wine or two? Like going out for meals? Had a bit of depression or trouble sleeping in the past? Family history of cancer? Been in a dispute with a neighbour? Been bankrupt? Did something stupid as a youth to get a police record? Dont worry it will all be made available to those that have your best interests at heart, honest guv.
'Information relating to the family of the individual and the individual’s lifestyle and social circumstances' will be contained on the NHS app??
Sounds like it will be akin to the Chinese social credit system.
More scary than any virus.
Vehicle registration number.
National Insurance (NINO) number.
Employer details.
Occupation details.
, over the next few weeks, then come June 21st, 'Oh look, this marginal percentage of people not wanting to be vaccinated means we simply must roll out Vaccine Passports that we conveniently have been working on.'I would hope some legal challenge comes of it but I won't hold out hope.
Of course, I'm sure it's 'no biggie' to some.
If you don't like the app, don't download it. I think it is unlikely that there will be no "offline" way to verify vaccination status but we will see.
There has already been controversy about people without smartphones able to access Test & Trace being denied service in pubs. The legal position is clear - you can leave your details with pen and paper, there is no requirement to "check in" via the NHS app.
There has already been controversy about people without smartphones able to access Test & Trace being denied service in pubs. The legal position is clear - you can leave your details with pen and paper, there is no requirement to "check in" via the NHS app.
NickCQ said:
If you don't like the app, don't download it. I think it is unlikely that there will be no "offline" way to verify vaccination status but we will see.
There has already been controversy about people without smartphones able to access Test & Trace being denied service in pubs. The legal position is clear - you can leave your details with pen and paper, there is no requirement to "check in" via the NHS app.
There should be no need to 'verify vaccination status.There has already been controversy about people without smartphones able to access Test & Trace being denied service in pubs. The legal position is clear - you can leave your details with pen and paper, there is no requirement to "check in" via the NHS app.
It is not needed if the vulnerable have been jabbed (which they have).
Can you explain why a 'health app' contains the fields for vehicle registration number, criminal records, 'the individual’s lifestyle and social circumstances'... ?
It is 'Digital ID' by the back door.
NickCQ said:
From what you have posted here and elsewhere it sounds like you are choosing not to get the jab anyway, so I'm not sure why you care.
Other than the fact that those not getting vaccinated will be cut out of normal life 'because filthy'?The narrative is already well underway in the Press - 'refuseniks' being the choice of words for those being cautious and awaiting Phase 3 trials to, you know, actually finish.
June 21st will see Vaccine Passports announced and, I'm sure, legislation stopping non-vaccinated people from going about normal daily life unless they prove they've been tested negative in the past 24/48/72 hours.
It's already in place in Israel, the place Slithering Gove just came back from.
NickCQ said:
RSTurboPaul said:
awaiting Phase 3 trials to, you know, actually finish.
tbh I haven't followed the specifics here - which of the vaccines haven't finished Phase 3 / what is Phase 3 / when is that expected?Phase 3 is the final phase in a standard clinical trial for vaccines (and I presume other therapeutics). It's not something that can be rushed because it has a defined time-frame (of, I think, 2 years).
2022/23 should see these vaccines (if they pass trials) fully licensed and approved for use (without it being contingent on an emergency).
Edited by markyb_lcy on Wednesday 19th May 21:27
markyb_lcy said:
NickCQ said:
RSTurboPaul said:
awaiting Phase 3 trials to, you know, actually finish.
tbh I haven't followed the specifics here - which of the vaccines haven't finished Phase 3 / what is Phase 3 / when is that expected?2022/23
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