Undertaking on a motorbike
Discussion
FAO Mr Whippy.
For the record (seeing as you have been putting words in my mouth).
I do NOT ride or drive with an invinsible attitude, in fact, quite the opposite.
I do ride and drive with respect for the safety of others, this is of paramount importance.
Mr Whippy Said
" Well I've had, and a few members of my family for that matter have had the misfortune of meeting heroic motorcyclists on the road now, and when I hear them saying they are in full control of these 400bhp/tonne+ bikes I simply laugh to myself. "
My motorbike is actually around 600bhp per tonne (kinda average these days) and I have to say, I ride within full control of it day in day out. That remark smacks of a 'motorbikes should be banned' attitude, but I would hate to be putting words in your mouth
.
For the record (seeing as you have been putting words in my mouth).
I do NOT ride or drive with an invinsible attitude, in fact, quite the opposite.
I do ride and drive with respect for the safety of others, this is of paramount importance.
Mr Whippy Said
" Well I've had, and a few members of my family for that matter have had the misfortune of meeting heroic motorcyclists on the road now, and when I hear them saying they are in full control of these 400bhp/tonne+ bikes I simply laugh to myself. "
My motorbike is actually around 600bhp per tonne (kinda average these days) and I have to say, I ride within full control of it day in day out. That remark smacks of a 'motorbikes should be banned' attitude, but I would hate to be putting words in your mouth
. I wasn't reffering to you mattrsv, more to BlairOut's previous remarks about how safely he could undertake cars etc, and how he made out how safely he could do it.
I know slow does not equal safe, but with my head on accident with a motorbike overtaking into me, had I been going my "usual" empty road foot down speed, the biker and myself would have no doubt been very seriosuly injured or killed.
So thanks to me driving a bit more slowly knowing others were using the road at high speeds, I compensated for the bikers mistake and he managed to get away fairly ok for what had happened.
What should I have done there? Being going faster, that would have ended much more nicely since he'd have been killed.
Well just wait till you've had a nice prang and you'll know the benefits of going sub 60mph with other traffic around! Whether it's you heading for them or them heading into you.
Nuff said I think...
Dave
I know slow does not equal safe, but with my head on accident with a motorbike overtaking into me, had I been going my "usual" empty road foot down speed, the biker and myself would have no doubt been very seriosuly injured or killed.
So thanks to me driving a bit more slowly knowing others were using the road at high speeds, I compensated for the bikers mistake and he managed to get away fairly ok for what had happened.
What should I have done there? Being going faster, that would have ended much more nicely since he'd have been killed.
Well just wait till you've had a nice prang and you'll know the benefits of going sub 60mph with other traffic around! Whether it's you heading for them or them heading into you.
Nuff said I think...
Dave
I had a nice prang thanks.... A life changer as you put it...
Dead for a short while... Although I am feeling much better now
I lost 2" out of a leg. Spent months in hospital not knowing if the experimental surgery would take, before I knew I would keep both my legs. While I was in a coma my father had to sign for amputation. So, I am not sat here saying "It'll never happen to me" It does.
FYI, this was in a 30MPH limit... Some old dodderer failed to look properly before turning into my path and then freezing at 45 degrees right across the road.
Twenty years, and half a million miles of additional experience on, do I overtake up the inside when I think it's appropriate? Yes. Am I observant? You
in bet I am. Not only do I think everyone is trying to kill me, some of the buggers have actually tried!
I am pretty fussy who I let be my wingman. The last person I want behind me is some muppet who has no idea what's going on. If I overtake on the left, it may be a couple of cars. From where I sit, I can see over the majority of cars and know who is reacting in time.
If I see anyone driving on autopilot I will build a barrier around myself with more observant drivers.
I know who is smoking, who is pissing about with the stereo, who has a sandwich on their lap... FFS, half the time I know what the filling is.
I ride a bike to allow me to make good progress. I am not a speed freak, quite the opposite, but overtaking up the inside is quite safe on a bike. You obviously don't understand the capabilities of the modern bike. FYI also, the bike I was knocked off was a 1968 Triumph Trophy... Bloody lethal thing, cable brakes
Oh, and the guy who nearly killed me was driving very slowly indeed!
Dead for a short while... Although I am feeling much better now
I lost 2" out of a leg. Spent months in hospital not knowing if the experimental surgery would take, before I knew I would keep both my legs. While I was in a coma my father had to sign for amputation. So, I am not sat here saying "It'll never happen to me" It does.
FYI, this was in a 30MPH limit... Some old dodderer failed to look properly before turning into my path and then freezing at 45 degrees right across the road.
Twenty years, and half a million miles of additional experience on, do I overtake up the inside when I think it's appropriate? Yes. Am I observant? You
in bet I am. Not only do I think everyone is trying to kill me, some of the buggers have actually tried! I am pretty fussy who I let be my wingman. The last person I want behind me is some muppet who has no idea what's going on. If I overtake on the left, it may be a couple of cars. From where I sit, I can see over the majority of cars and know who is reacting in time.
If I see anyone driving on autopilot I will build a barrier around myself with more observant drivers.
I know who is smoking, who is pissing about with the stereo, who has a sandwich on their lap... FFS, half the time I know what the filling is.
I ride a bike to allow me to make good progress. I am not a speed freak, quite the opposite, but overtaking up the inside is quite safe on a bike. You obviously don't understand the capabilities of the modern bike. FYI also, the bike I was knocked off was a 1968 Triumph Trophy... Bloody lethal thing, cable brakes
Oh, and the guy who nearly killed me was driving very slowly indeed!
As a car driver, i would rather bikes stuck to overtaking. Because we are taught not to undertake, we dont always check too carefully when lane changing towards the nearside, and there is no reccomendation for us to indicate when we do so.
Bikers "making progress" between two lanes of moving traffic are the worst, in my opinion, just asking for trouble from a car trying to slot leftwards into a gap without indicating. Cars dont even have to have a nearside mirror!
>> Edited by deeen on Friday 16th July 16:40
Bikers "making progress" between two lanes of moving traffic are the worst, in my opinion, just asking for trouble from a car trying to slot leftwards into a gap without indicating. Cars dont even have to have a nearside mirror!
>> Edited by deeen on Friday 16th July 16:40
IIRC, you are not supposed to indicate when completing an overtake in case another motorist misinterprets your intention.
Personally I do not rely that heavily on signals from fellow motorists. Body language is often a far better guide.
I will always overtake on the right, unless presented with a lane hog.
Personally I do not rely that heavily on signals from fellow motorists. Body language is often a far better guide.
I will always overtake on the right, unless presented with a lane hog.
Well I'm not saying that your dangerous. Indeed, I check my inside everytime I move over, just in case.
I would have no problem with you undertaking me if you deem it safe.
I'm more worried about your safety and others when it goes wrong. Like you've experienced, it can be someone elses fault.
Ie, undertaking someone, seems safe. They suddenly want to get over since the car in the fast lane pulls over for some stupid reason.
Not really anyones fault except the guy in the fast lane who initiates the panic.
Your caught in the way, and get rammed off. The driver who hits you panics and swerves maybe, getting hit by other cars who were further back and can't stop in time.
Just an example. I know this could happen at any time with you not even there, but by being there, both you, and perhaps the driver your undertaking are hurt.
Just seems silly to me, to take a risk with so many muppets about.
When I was rammed into head on, I was so not expecting it.
I've driven on roads that bikers use fast for many mnay years, and know where they are going and let them by etc. I always knew they MUST know what they are doing to be driving like they were, since if they didn't it'd be curtains.
But when something goes wrong, you loose your trust in them which I previously had.
I've just come to the conclusion that it's easier to just drive at a steady speed within the limits around other people on the road, since it's safer for both them, you and your lisence.
Then when the road opens up give it moderate care where it might be risky, otherwise just have fun.
Well anyway, thats how I'm going to do it from now on, then I can still have my fun, just away from other people
Seya
Dave
I would have no problem with you undertaking me if you deem it safe.
I'm more worried about your safety and others when it goes wrong. Like you've experienced, it can be someone elses fault.
Ie, undertaking someone, seems safe. They suddenly want to get over since the car in the fast lane pulls over for some stupid reason.
Not really anyones fault except the guy in the fast lane who initiates the panic.
Your caught in the way, and get rammed off. The driver who hits you panics and swerves maybe, getting hit by other cars who were further back and can't stop in time.
Just an example. I know this could happen at any time with you not even there, but by being there, both you, and perhaps the driver your undertaking are hurt.
Just seems silly to me, to take a risk with so many muppets about.
When I was rammed into head on, I was so not expecting it.
I've driven on roads that bikers use fast for many mnay years, and know where they are going and let them by etc. I always knew they MUST know what they are doing to be driving like they were, since if they didn't it'd be curtains.
But when something goes wrong, you loose your trust in them which I previously had.
I've just come to the conclusion that it's easier to just drive at a steady speed within the limits around other people on the road, since it's safer for both them, you and your lisence.
Then when the road opens up give it moderate care where it might be risky, otherwise just have fun.
Well anyway, thats how I'm going to do it from now on, then I can still have my fun, just away from other people
Seya
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
General theme of what I'm saying though is that you knowingly do something you know is dangerous, and you do it knowing that you are putting yourself at risk of injury or death.
Worst bit is though, don't put others lives at risk. You might think your only risking yours, but you could be risking someone elses too pulling a manouvre like that!
You Plum, what you've just said could be applied to everybody everytime they drive a car, ride a bike, get on a train, a plane or even walk up the stairs. Its all to do with the individuals perception of acceptable risk calculated against the reward, a motorcyclist if they are any good is constantly doing this calculation and is generally far better placed to assess it than you.
As a high milage "white van" driver I would say it's good roadcraft for drivers to spot bikes in their rearview mirrors and anticipate that they will want to get past. Undertaking is not illegal and would be the second best option open to the biker if he's making progress (the first option is waiting for the car to move over) and these moves should be anticipated by the car driver. There is no way that I would sit on my high horse and say that they should be deliberately held up, bike's DO NOT cause congestion and as their lives depend upon riding safely they tend to be far more aware of their surroundings.
When did you last see a biker steering with his knees with a sandwich in one hand and a road map in the other while drinking coke and holding a fag ???
When did you last see a biker steering with his knees with a sandwich in one hand and a road map in the other while drinking coke and holding a fag ???
Gonna hate me for this but just gotta point a couple of things out here Deeen.
By 'we' I assume you mean all none two wheel motorists but whilst your opinion may be in the majority it is not the opinion of all. For the rest of us your attitude to awareness is considered poor driving skill and downright dangerous.
You say there is no recommendation to indicate whilst moving lane to the nearside.
The Highway Code says:
Lane discipline
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and check your blind spots (the areas you are unable to see in the mirrors) to make sure you will not force another driver or rider to swerve or slow down. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear move over.
Note it does not specify direction of the move or exclude moving nearside from the recommendation.
I'm not aware of the recommendation not to indicate when completing an overtake but the example you use is 'slotting' into a gap etc which conjures up a different picture. I appreciate the middle and right lanes are overtaking lanes but stretchng the point if you are in traffic in the outside lane for half an hour and move left and call that an overtaking manouevre.
As for
Does not needing a nearside mirror exempt you from making more use of your legally required rear view mirror, or the thing below your head called a neck and checking over your shoulder.
Do you think a motorcyclist committing an illegal nearside overtake (not all are) who is
will weigh any less on your conscience after you cause him death or serious injury?
Call me harsh, sarcastic, or possibly a few other choice words, but IMHO I think you should consider revising your technique for ascertaining the safety of, and indicating your intention to, perform lane changes and pretty much everything else that might bring you into contact with another motorist.
>> Edited by tom_audi_tt on Friday 16th July 19:02
deeen said:
we dont always check too carefully when lane changing towards the nearside, and there is no reccomendation for us to indicate when we do so.
By 'we' I assume you mean all none two wheel motorists but whilst your opinion may be in the majority it is not the opinion of all. For the rest of us your attitude to awareness is considered poor driving skill and downright dangerous.
You say there is no recommendation to indicate whilst moving lane to the nearside.
The Highway Code says:
Lane discipline
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and check your blind spots (the areas you are unable to see in the mirrors) to make sure you will not force another driver or rider to swerve or slow down. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear move over.
Note it does not specify direction of the move or exclude moving nearside from the recommendation.
I'm not aware of the recommendation not to indicate when completing an overtake but the example you use is 'slotting' into a gap etc which conjures up a different picture. I appreciate the middle and right lanes are overtaking lanes but stretchng the point if you are in traffic in the outside lane for half an hour and move left and call that an overtaking manouevre.
As for
deeen said:
Cars dont even have to have a nearside mirror!
Does not needing a nearside mirror exempt you from making more use of your legally required rear view mirror, or the thing below your head called a neck and checking over your shoulder.
Do you think a motorcyclist committing an illegal nearside overtake (not all are) who is
deeen said:
just asking for trouble from a car trying to slot leftwards into a gap without indicating
will weigh any less on your conscience after you cause him death or serious injury?
Call me harsh, sarcastic, or possibly a few other choice words, but IMHO I think you should consider revising your technique for ascertaining the safety of, and indicating your intention to, perform lane changes and pretty much everything else that might bring you into contact with another motorist.
>> Edited by tom_audi_tt on Friday 16th July 19:02
hi tom
i would call u fairy nuff, just a different set of opinions to mine, which is fine!
As I think BlairOut realised, i was playing devils advocate to a certain extent. However, while obvoiusly all Pistonheads motorists are perfect, this is not true of the general motoring public. An earlier post on this thread mentiond risk analysis, and I believe if you didn't undertake / make progress between lanes, you would increase your chances of getting home (eventually!)
The Highway Code also says ... "only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right", and ... "stay in your lane if the traffic is moving slowly in queues", and in slow moving traffic you "should...not change lanes to the left to overtake",
so some ppl would consider undertaking and between-lanes overtaking to be poor and dangerous roadcraft.
Nearside mirrors - my point really was that you are putting yourself in a position where other road users are not expecting to find you, to the extent that we don't even have to have a mirror to look out for you. Many accidents are caused by ppl doing the unexpected. However, now you mention it, some cars have a big enough blind spot to hide a bike, even if the driver looks over his/her left shoulder.
To answer your last point, if someone died in a accident I was involved in, i would regret it for the rest of my life. I would be angry with myself beyond all reason, and angry with the person who died in proportion to the amount that his/her behaviour caused the accident (see highway code above).
This is not meant to sound sanctimonious as i may myself have undertaken in a car before now, although on this forum i couldnt possibly remember where, when or if it acually happened!
i would call u fairy nuff, just a different set of opinions to mine, which is fine!
As I think BlairOut realised, i was playing devils advocate to a certain extent. However, while obvoiusly all Pistonheads motorists are perfect, this is not true of the general motoring public. An earlier post on this thread mentiond risk analysis, and I believe if you didn't undertake / make progress between lanes, you would increase your chances of getting home (eventually!)
The Highway Code also says ... "only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right", and ... "stay in your lane if the traffic is moving slowly in queues", and in slow moving traffic you "should...not change lanes to the left to overtake",
so some ppl would consider undertaking and between-lanes overtaking to be poor and dangerous roadcraft.
Nearside mirrors - my point really was that you are putting yourself in a position where other road users are not expecting to find you, to the extent that we don't even have to have a mirror to look out for you. Many accidents are caused by ppl doing the unexpected. However, now you mention it, some cars have a big enough blind spot to hide a bike, even if the driver looks over his/her left shoulder.
To answer your last point, if someone died in a accident I was involved in, i would regret it for the rest of my life. I would be angry with myself beyond all reason, and angry with the person who died in proportion to the amount that his/her behaviour caused the accident (see highway code above).
This is not meant to sound sanctimonious as i may myself have undertaken in a car before now, although on this forum i couldnt possibly remember where, when or if it acually happened!
deeen said:
hi tom
i would call u fairy nuff, just a different set of opinions to mine, which is fine!
As I think BlairOut realised, i was playing devils advocate to a certain extent. However, while obvoiusly all Pistonheads motorists are perfect, this is not true of the general motoring public. An earlier post on this thread mentiond risk analysis, and I believe if you didn't undertake / make progress between lanes, you would increase your chances of getting home (eventually!)
The Highway Code also says ... "only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right", and ... "stay in your lane if the traffic is moving slowly in queues", and in slow moving traffic you "should...not change lanes to the left to overtake",
so some ppl would consider undertaking and between-lanes overtaking to be poor and dangerous roadcraft.
Nearside mirrors - my point really was that you are putting yourself in a position where other road users are not expecting to find you, to the extent that we don't even have to have a mirror to look out for you. Many accidents are caused by ppl doing the unexpected. However, now you mention it, some cars have a big enough blind spot to hide a bike, even if the driver looks over his/her left shoulder.
To answer your last point, if someone died in a accident I was involved in, i would regret it for the rest of my life. I would be angry with myself beyond all reason, and angry with the person who died in proportion to the amount that his/her behaviour caused the accident (see highway code above).
This is not meant to sound sanctimonious as i may myself have undertaken in a car before now, although on this forum i couldnt possibly remember where, when or if it acually happened!
Thank you Deeen for your reply. In all honesty not knowing you I expected a less thought out response.
I understand your devils advocate approach and appreciate your response to mine similarly intended.
My point was that even if the manouevre was illegal do two wrongs make a right.
I have one of the cars you mention with a massive blind spot (even with a full set or mirrors) which I take into account when changing lanes.
I totally agree a lot of accidents are caused by ppl doing the unexpected which was my point for taking a little longer to consider a move and give some indication of your intention.
I'm quite sure now (you playing devil's advocate) that you are a better driver than those you describe so consider my response intended for the same hypothetical driver.
I'm happy for us both to play opposing sides of the coin without taking it personally.
Thank you
Tom
On a lighter note! May I just relate a true story ( I guarantee it) You'll like this one!
A gentleman I know, an HGV driver of many years experience, pulled up at a set of traffic lights one day, unbe-known to him, a motorcyclist had pulled past him on the inside, and stopped in front of his nearside front quarter, still out of his line of sight.
Upon the lights turning to green, he pulled away only to hear a slight thump! and a Blue light reflector shot vertically into the air at the left side of his screen.
Yes! it was a Police Bike!
Because of this, it had to be investigated by a neighbouring force. In the end?- No charge- motorcyclists fault.
No-one injured thankfully, but have to laugh whenever I hear the story repeated.
I keep having this vision of the motorcycles pole mounted blue light launched vertically from below the windscreen level!
>> Edited by 8Pack on Sunday 18th July 00:42
A gentleman I know, an HGV driver of many years experience, pulled up at a set of traffic lights one day, unbe-known to him, a motorcyclist had pulled past him on the inside, and stopped in front of his nearside front quarter, still out of his line of sight.
Upon the lights turning to green, he pulled away only to hear a slight thump! and a Blue light reflector shot vertically into the air at the left side of his screen.
Yes! it was a Police Bike!
Because of this, it had to be investigated by a neighbouring force. In the end?- No charge- motorcyclists fault. No-one injured thankfully, but have to laugh whenever I hear the story repeated.
I keep having this vision of the motorcycles pole mounted blue light launched vertically from below the windscreen level! >> Edited by 8Pack on Sunday 18th July 00:42
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