A thorny issue - illegal off-roading - any advice?

[RtdRacer]

300bhp/ton said:

But is it without reasons?

Lets face what little evidence we have.

- the op has made some outrageous claims on the level of damage being caused. So much so they are hugely unlikely to be true.

- they have proclaimed what is or isn't legal, yet so far have not actually managed to back up any such claims.

You seem to be reluctant to take the OP's claims at face value, seemingly because it does not accord with your world view.

Either take his evidence as face value, and contribute to the discussion, or don't and stay out of thread. If you start your argument with 'The OP is blatantly lying', then that's pretty much the end of the discussion, as you have nothing to tilt against.

I will do the OP the courtesy of assuming he is not lying and there is damage being done. This is one of those thorny issues where an activity has scaled up to a point where it is qualitatively different. Short of imposing regulations (which can be overly heavy handed), there are few good solutions - only let people whose names begin A-M do it on a Saturday?

[larrylamb11]

Hmmmm... thanks for the comments (I think), although I do feel slightly set upon! Note: this is not an issue about 'noise', but illegal use and damage. 300bhp/ton you have email. I am asking for some constructive advice on how to go about adressing the problem I outlined - that of illegal off-roading at all hours and significant damage to byways. Who does one approach to seek to have a byway assessed or TRO applied?

300bhp/ton - thanks for your commentary on my post. Most of these byways are not used by farm traffic, so horses and off-roaders are the sole source of deterioration. You would seriously struggle to pass them on foot, certainly not with a pushchair for example or on a bicycle. Hopefully I have addressed the legality issue in my email to you . Numerous different vehicles - both 2 and 4 wheeled, some repeat offenders. Yes, there is evidence alot of which has been supplied to the Police, but you probably only get one photo for every ten events at most - you would be surprised how aggresive people become if you try and take pictures of them! Besides which, I personally have favoured the discussion route to try to educate the people I come across about the legality of what they are doing and the damage they are causing - engaging in conversation rather than confrontation. It isn't massively successful - I have stopped and spoken to the same lads on non-road legal monkey bikes 3 times! ) I would still prefer this method though. I know that the local council have also deployed covert CCTV in the past too.

Dog Star said:

I can appreciate the OPs point....However what has really really ruined it has been the explosion in 4x4 "One life, live it!" popularity; I see loads of chopped LRs, Discos, RRs, Suzukis etc driving up every weekend morning and down again, covered in st in the evenings. The ruts and general knackeredness that has been done to places that I have been able to ride on for years without problem is unbelievable.

The trouble is that there are simply too many of them and as is usual in these situations, they're ruining it for everyone else. And the root cause of all this concentration of 4x4s in one place is the actions and campaigning of the RA to close almost all routes to wheeled traffic. And of course this results in what's left getting ruined and so we'll get banned from that as well. Marvelous

Thank you - that is exactly the problem - finally someone else who has experienced something similar.

For those accusing me of NIMBY - please, I am trying to address a problem of illegal off-roading - its a legality issue, not a NIMBY issue. I have no problem with the legal use of byways so long as that use doesn't damage them so that other recreational users cannot use them.... Like I said, I have enjoyed and still enjoy offroading myself but would not dream of doing it somewhere that will result in ripping up the countryside - even if it is my 'legal right'.... I dunno, call me 'responsible' or something

[Devil2575]

TheHeretic said:

Devil2575 said:

No, it was a general comment on the entire thread.

OK. Well, your "165 mph speeder" analogy is possibly the worst strawman I have seen thus far. No-one is supporting the minority of idiots who offroad like hooligans. I said so in my first post. You seem to be under the impression others are supporting them as well, which I find odd.

Please do stop with the strawman rubbish. It's old and tired now especialy when you don't use it in the correct context.

Plenty of people jumped straight on the OP and assumed he must be a Nimby and/or lying/exagerating about the situation. I was simply making an analogy with the posters in other threads who take one side of an argument without referece to any facts.

[Devil2575]

hman said:

you seem like a nimby, are you?

No.

To be a Nimby I would need to be of the opinion that 'offroading' was something that society needs/is beneficial but I just don't want it happening near to me.

I couldn't give a toss if people get to do it or not.

I also have no objection to people doing it at places designed specifically for it. There is one such place about 3 miles from me.

[TheHeretic]

Devil2575 said:

Please do stop with the strawman rubbish. It's old and tired now especialy when you don't use it in the correct context.

Plenty of people jumped straight on the OP and assumed he must be a Nimby and/or lying/exagerating about the situation. I was simply making an analogy with the posters in other threads who take one side of an argument without referece to any facts.

If you say so. You say plenty of people. We have gone from someone saying 90% of the thread calling the OP NIMBY, to plenty, so that is an improvement. Either way, I think you have misread much of what people have been saying, and concentrating on just the bits you want to get angry about.

[Dog Star]

TheHeretic said:

It doesn't take much to 'muddy' a vehicle, particularly if their tyres poke out even a touch from the bodywork, as mine does, (but not outside the fender). I was out on a little jolly just the other day, no ripping up of the countryside, etc, but you will get blobs of mud popping up off the tyre. Stay out for a few hours and it can look like you've been 'hooliga-laning', even when you haven't. Don't assume muddy = hooligan.

These things are pretty serious trialling things; you can go and watch them. For the most part where these are going is legal http://cowmleisure.com/ however it's very very popular now with people coming from far and wide and you can now see the effects (not necessarily from the same people I might add) on lots of bits of moorland.

[Devil2575]

RtdRacer said:

You seem to be reluctant to take the OP's claims at face value, seemingly because it does not accord with your world view.

Either take his evidence as face value, and contribute to the discussion, or don't and stay out of thread. If you start your argument with 'The OP is blatantly lying', then that's pretty much the end of the discussion, as you have nothing to tilt against.

I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks this.

[hman]

you seem like a nimby, are you?

[300bhp/ton]

Devil2575 said:

Light 4x4s? How much do you thinks an old landrover weighs?

Depends on the specific vehicle, but can be as little as 1300-1500kg maybe less if an 80". Jimny's and Vitara's are pretty light weight too.

Remember this is all relative, a medium sized tractor, corn cart and a load of wheat might well weigh 18 tonnes and be driven on the same tracks and lanes.

Even ploughs, seed drills, harrows and such with modern large tractors can easily weigh that of 4 Land Rovers and with much larger and aggressive tyres.

Devil2575 said:

Even a Scramblers on off road tyres will make a mess of a mud track after rain.

So will sheep or even people walking along it. I don't see the point or the problem - it's a mud track, when it rains it will be muddy even if nobody uses it. It's prime purpose is to be travelled along, so again I don't see the issue with using it. If it was an important route then it would be developed and tarmacked.

The fact it isn't, means it really isn't used enough, so what is the problem with it getting a bit muddy?

Devil2575 said:

It doesn't take much to turn a path into a quagmire that is very difficult for anyone to walk on.

How many people are we talking an hour, day or week?

Are they not able to walk down the middle of it where the wheel markings aren't? Or maybe to the side. Basically how much room does a person need? If it was a footpath then it'd likely be acceptable to be 1 person wide. Why does a lane need to be 20 feet wide for a walker?

e.g.

I'm sure many walkers would complain at this.... as there's nowhere to walk



Yet would be content and happy with this, despite it being many times narrower with a lot less room to walk.



BTW this is poached ground:


Now if you drove a tractor over it, it'd make one hell of mess as the ground is all broken up and full of holes for 6" or so below the surface.

If you drove the same vehicle over the same field where it wasn't poached it'd make far less damage.


As a rule the worst parts of lanes are due to this type of thing. Standing water can be an issue, but then would you want to pay additional council road tax to put a full drainage system for every lane?

[Lurking Lawyer]

hman said:

you seem like a nimby, are you?

Judging by the photo in your profile, it's not exactly like you're neutral in stance and that you don't have an agenda of your own, is it.....?

[Devil2575]

TheHeretic said:

If you say so. You say plenty of people. We have gone from someone saying 90% of the thread calling the OP NIMBY, to plenty, so that is an improvement. Either way, I think you have misread much of what people have been saying, and concentrating on just the bits you want to get angry about.

crusty said:

There used to be lots of areas for people to go, but overtime they have nearly all been banned by people like you.

Now you are seeing the rsults

wheedler said:

It's all a bit fun just not when it affects me.

Bet you two are one of those people that moves near a race track and then moan about the noise ffs and then try to close it down . I off road early in the morning because there's nowhere left to do it legally, seems anywhere I go there's someone to moan about the noise. I don't have a stupid exhaust

car crazy said:

So you like off roading but not near you, could you not understand why my brain is shouting NIMBY

300bhp/ton said:

Sorry but bullst statements like this really do not help your cause.

I'm also pretty sure you are hugely exaggerating the fact that it's a 24/7 issue.

Seems to be a few posts.

I never said 90% BTW

[TheHeretic]

Lurking Lawyer said:

Judging by the photo in your profile, it's not exactly like you're neutral in stance and that you don't have an agenda of your own, is it.....?

Rides a bike, therefore what?

I drive an off roader, therefore what?

[hman]

Lurking Lawyer said:

hman said:

you seem like a nimby, are you?

Judging by the photo in your profile, it's not exactly like you're neutral in stance and that you don't have an agenda of your own, is it.....?

Photo is taken at a private moto-x track (rogershill in dorset) so isn't relevant to this discussion.

If it was taken in the woods next to the OP's house then maybe it would be more relevant.

People who moan about others practising legal activities are pissing in the wind.

[Robb F]

Devil2575 said:

TheHeretic said:

If you say so. You say plenty of people. We have gone from someone saying 90% of the thread calling the OP NIMBY, to plenty, so that is an improvement. Either way, I think you have misread much of what people have been saying, and concentrating on just the bits you want to get angry about.

crusty said:

There used to be lots of areas for people to go, but overtime they have nearly all been banned by people like you.

Now you are seeing the rsults

wheedler said:

It's all a bit fun just not when it affects me.

Bet you two are one of those people that moves near a race track and then moan about the noise ffs and then try to close it down . I off road early in the morning because there's nowhere left to do it legally, seems anywhere I go there's someone to moan about the noise. I don't have a stupid exhaust

car crazy said:

So you like off roading but not near you, could you not understand why my brain is shouting NIMBY

300bhp/ton said:

Sorry but bullst statements like this really do not help your cause.

I'm also pretty sure you are hugely exaggerating the fact that it's a 24/7 issue.

Seems to be a few posts.

I never said 90% BTW

Two of the four posts you quoted aren't calling the OP a nimby.

Edited by Robb F on Friday 15th February 17:45

[TheHeretic]

Devil2575 said:

Seems to be a few posts.

I never said 90% BTW

I never said you did. I said 'someone' did, earlier. You then suggested plenty. Still, all those posts on this thread. It seems 'plenty' is an exaggeration as well.

[Pothole]

crusty said:

Mr2Mike said:

I may be able to provide an answer if you actually completed your question.

OK let me spell it out, for the more 'special' people amongst us

the OP said

"but in recent years the incidence of dirt biking has increased exponentially"

I said

"There used to be lots of areas for people to go, but overtime they have nearly all been banned "

We than had

"It's illegal to ride a motorbike in the forest by my house.

It's not my job to come up with an alternative"

PLus

"How about the alternative of "Don't ride/drive on land where is it illegal"

and I replied with

"If you then systematically make everywhere illegal?"

So to conclude, if people continue to reduce the number of places for people to go, and try and outlaw off-roading, you will see an increase in illegal off-roading. Plus the attitude of "it's not my problem to find a suitable alternative" will/has made the situation worse

No, people who find it impossible to abide by the law in their leisure pursuits have made the situation worse. There is no entitlement to do whatever the fk you like in a civilised, democratic society.

[fangio]

Mud-plugging? Can't see the point.......
Gave it up when I was 13.

[Devil2575]

Robb F said:

Two of the four posts you quoted aren't calling the OP a nimby.

Edited by Robb F on Friday 15th February 17:45

I never said they were.

They are all accusatory and attacking the OP in some way.

[Devil2575]

TheHeretic said:

Devil2575 said:

Seems to be a few posts.

I never said 90% BTW

I never said you did. I said 'someone' did, earlier. You then suggested plenty. Still, all those posts on this thread. It seems 'plenty' is an exaggeration as well.

I posted the first four I came across. There are plenty more.

[wheedler]

hman said:

Want to see what we're up against when minding our own business on LEGAL lanes watch and learn..

Lieing nimbies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedd...

RIP Svengalie

That guy is funny