Could this be seen as using a mobile whilst driving?

Could this be seen as using a mobile whilst driving?

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Discussion

Wackywoo105

Original Poster:

397 posts

105 months

Sunday 25th February 2024
quotequote all
The gym I use has a card contolled barrier exit. My card is now in Google wallet, which means my physical card is deactivated and I have to use my phone to exit the gym. The barrier exits onto a road and I am careful to put my phone down before moving off.

It did occur to me that this could be seen as using a phone whilst driving, or is the gym car park classed as private land and thus it's not an issue?

DavePanda

6,736 posts

249 months

Sunday 25th February 2024
quotequote all
No officer in the world would class that as using a mobile while driving, the same as people using their phones to pay for drive thrus despite what rags like the Daily Wail tell you

agtlaw

7,133 posts

221 months

Monday 26th February 2024
quotequote all
Wackywoo105 said:
The gym I use has a card contolled barrier exit. My card is now in Google wallet, which means my physical card is deactivated and I have to use my phone to exit the gym. The barrier exits onto a road and I am careful to put my phone down before moving off.

It did occur to me that this could be seen as using a phone whilst driving, or is the gym car park classed as private land and thus it's not an issue?
Many road traffic offences are committed if you are driving “on a road or other public place” but the specific mobile phone offence is not one of them. The offence is only made out if you are on “a road.”

Gym car park on private land behind a barrier is probably not a road.



Aretnap

1,846 posts

166 months

Monday 26th February 2024
quotequote all
DavePanda said:
No officer in the world would class that as using a mobile while driving, the same as people using their phones to pay for drive thrus despite what rags like the Daily Wail tell you
The law does contain a specific exemption for making a contactless payment which, strictly speaking, isn't the same as what the OP's doing. Whether any police officer would be pedantic enough to try to make the distinction is a different question of course.

The question is somewhat academic though in a car park which is intended only for gym members, enforced by a barrier, as there's a very strong arguement that it isn't a road within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act.

skywalker001

25 posts

63 months

Wednesday 28th February 2024
quotequote all
DavePanda said:
No officer in the world would class that as using a mobile while driving, the same as people using their phones to pay for drive thrus despite what rags like the Daily Wail tell you
its true you are fine

https://youtube.com/shorts/bDw2dTBJJT4?si=tIwQLM8N...

Dave Finney

440 posts

161 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
It says: "It’s illegal to hold and use a phone ... while driving ..."
except when "you’re making a contactless payment ..."

No mention of only when on a "road",
and a "card controlled barrier" is not "a contactless payment".

The government page with "the law" in the title suggests that it is illegal for you to exit your car park!
As for "No officer in the world ...", does anyone believe "in the public interest" still applies?
https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-drivin...

monthou

5,019 posts

65 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
Dave Finney said:
It says: "It’s illegal to hold and use a phone ... while driving ..."
except when "you’re making a contactless payment ..."

No mention of only when on a "road",

https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-drivin...
Perhaps it would be better to look at the actual legislation rather than the dummies' guide?
What do you think?

Dave Finney

440 posts

161 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
monthou said:
Perhaps it would be better to look at the actual legislation rather than the dummies' guide?
What do you think?
Can you find it?
I have this:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2695/made

But it looks like it might be the old law.
Why can't "the dummies' guide" have a link to the actual legislation?
Or be accurate?

monthou

5,019 posts

65 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
Dave Finney said:
monthou said:
Perhaps it would be better to look at the actual legislation rather than the dummies' guide?
What do you think?
Can you find it?
I have this:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2695/made

But it looks like it might be the old law.
Why can't "the dummies' guide" have a link to the actual legislation?
Or be accurate?
From your link:

thelaw said:
Amendment of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986

2. The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986(2) are amended by inserting after regulation 109—
“Mobile telephones

110.—(1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using—

(a)a hand-held mobile telephone; or
...
Here's the latest update (AFAIK, IANAL etc)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/81/made

And discussion of it:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/changes-in-th...

AIUI the road part hasn't changed - the key change is holding the phone is now enough to make the offence. But, again, IANAL.

I agree btw, a link to legislation in the Dummies' guide would be a good thing.

MustangGT

13,172 posts

295 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
monthou said:
AIUI the road part hasn't changed - the key change is holding the phone is now enough to make the offence. But, again, IANAL.
No, holding it is not enough, it must be used (same as before). The list of what constitutes used is now defined.

monthou

5,019 posts

65 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
MustangGT said:
monthou said:
AIUI the road part hasn't changed - the key change is holding the phone is now enough to make the offence. But, again, IANAL.
No, holding it is not enough, it must be used (same as before). The list of what constitutes used is now defined.
Correct.

hereyougo said:
illuminating the screen
checking the time
checking notifications
unlocking the device
making, receiving, or rejecting a telephone or internet based call
sending, receiving or uploading oral or written content
sending, receiving or uploading a photo or video
utilising camera, video, or sound recording
drafting any text
accessing any stored data such as documents, books, audio files, photos, videos, films, playlists, notes or messages
accessing an app
accessing the internet
Fortunately IANAL.

agtlaw

7,133 posts

221 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
Dave Finney said:
Can you find it?
I have this:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2695/made

But it looks like it might be the old law.
Why can't "the dummies' guide" have a link to the actual legislation?
Or be accurate?
Gov web pages are not written by lawyers. This is what the relevant law says:

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using— (a) a hand-held mobile telephone ..."

Contrast that with the no insurance offence:

"a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Drink driving:

"drives or attempts to drive a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Drunk in charge:

"is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Etc, etc.

The no insurance offence above previously was only committed "on a road" but the law was changed to include "or other public place."


QuickQuack

2,489 posts

116 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
agtlaw said:
Dave Finney said:
Can you find it?
I have this:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2695/made

But it looks like it might be the old law.
Why can't "the dummies' guide" have a link to the actual legislation?
Or be accurate?
Gov web pages are not written by lawyers. This is what the relevant law says:

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using— (a) a hand-held mobile telephone ..."

Contrast that with the no insurance offence:

"a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Drink driving:

"drives or attempts to drive a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Drunk in charge:

"is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Etc, etc.

The no insurance offence above previously was only committed "on a road" but the law was changed to include "or other public place."
As always with AGT's clarifications bow

Dave Finney

440 posts

161 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
MustangGT said:
No, holding it is not enough, it must be used (same as before). The list of what constitutes used is now defined.
Yes, but for it not to be "used", it looks like the screen must be off.
So it appears that to be driving on a road with the phone in your hand with the screen off, is NOT illegal.

eg you start driving with the phone in your pocket.
you then move the phone (in your hand and with the screen off) to a holder.
Once in the holder, you then touch the phone to switch it on and access apps, eg sat-nav.

All of that appears NOT to be illegal (provided you do it all safely).

MustangGT

13,172 posts

295 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
Dave Finney said:
MustangGT said:
No, holding it is not enough, it must be used (same as before). The list of what constitutes used is now defined.
Yes, but for it not to be "used", it looks like the screen must be off.
So it appears that to be driving on a road with the phone in your hand with the screen off, is NOT illegal.

eg you start driving with the phone in your pocket.
you then move the phone (in your hand and with the screen off) to a holder.
Once in the holder, you then touch the phone to switch it on and access apps, eg sat-nav.

All of that appears NOT to be illegal (provided you do it all safely).
Correct, with the caveat that the lock screen may be on if the phone reacts to movement.

NFT

1,324 posts

37 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
agtlaw said:
Dave Finney said:
Can you find it?
I have this:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2695/made

But it looks like it might be the old law.
Why can't "the dummies' guide" have a link to the actual legislation?
Or be accurate?
Gov web pages are not written by lawyers. This is what the relevant law says:

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using— (a) a hand-held mobile telephone ..."

Contrast that with the no insurance offence:

"a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Drink driving:

"drives or attempts to drive a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Drunk in charge:

"is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Etc, etc.

The no insurance offence above previously was only committed "on a road" but the law was changed to include "or other public place."
Would this "Road" include a layby or grass verge maintained at the public expense?

Curious if one could fall foul by holding to head to make/answer a call whilst in layby etc..?


martinbiz

3,574 posts

160 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
NFT said:
agtlaw said:
Dave Finney said:
Can you find it?
I have this:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/2695/made

But it looks like it might be the old law.
Why can't "the dummies' guide" have a link to the actual legislation?
Or be accurate?
Gov web pages are not written by lawyers. This is what the relevant law says:

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using— (a) a hand-held mobile telephone ..."

Contrast that with the no insurance offence:

"a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Drink driving:

"drives or attempts to drive a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Drunk in charge:

"is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place"

Etc, etc.

The no insurance offence above previously was only committed "on a road" but the law was changed to include "or other public place."
Would this "Road" include a layby or grass verge maintained at the public expense?

Curious if one could fall foul by holding to head to make/answer a call whilst in layby etc..?
Yes, a layby would be included as part of a road, but if you are in a layby parked, handbrake on and with the engine off, you are not committing the specific offence

Foss62

1,410 posts

80 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
martinbiz said:
Yes, a layby would be included as part of a road, but if you are in a layby parked, handbrake on and with the engine off, you are not committing the specific offence
Just being deliberately difficult - but most cars these days stop the engine when stationary anyway, and electric vehicles aren’t even ‘ticking over’ in any form when stopped. Is there are potential complication here as to whether ‘ignition’ is on or off (whatever that might mean)?

martinbiz

3,574 posts

160 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
Foss62 said:
martinbiz said:
Yes, a layby would be included as part of a road, but if you are in a layby parked, handbrake on and with the engine off, you are not committing the specific offence
Just being deliberately difficult - but most cars these days stop the engine when stationary anyway, and electric vehicles aren’t even ‘ticking over’ in any form when stopped. Is there are potential complication here as to whether ‘ignition’ is on or off (whatever that might mean)?
When the engine is in start stop, it's still in driving mode and the ignition is not off, trying to convince anyone otherwise would be a stretch

Aretnap

1,846 posts

166 months

Friday 1st March 2024
quotequote all
Foss62 said:
Just being deliberately difficult - but most cars these days stop the engine when stationary anyway, and electric vehicles aren’t even ‘ticking over’ in any form when stopped. Is there are potential complication here as to whether ‘ignition’ is on or off (whatever that might mean)?
Whether or not you are driving is a matter of fact and degree which is ultimately for the court to decide taking all the circumstances into account - there is no single tick box which determines whether you are driving or not.

The engine being of doors not automatically mean that you are not driving - if you are being towed and controlling the steering you are still clearly driving, and if your so start engine switches off at traffic lights.

It's a bit more controversial but I think it's arguable that the engine being on site not automatically mean that you are driving. The other morning I found that my windscreen had frosted up, so I switched my engine on and sat in the driver's seat while I waited for it to defrost. While I couldn't see out of the windscreen, was I guilty of the construction and use offense of driving while not in a position to have a clear view of the road ahead? If not, would I have been guilty of the construction and use offense of driving while using a mobile phone had I made a phone call?