Police speeding - from AOL homepage
Discussion
I know it's been covered before, but thought I'd post this from the AOL homepage:
Police Caught Speeding 45,000 Times.
Caught on camera: Police officers have been recorded breaking the speed limit more than 45,000 times in one year.
Police officers were caught driving too fast by speed cameras more than 45,000 times in the last year, it has been revealed.
And the forces whose officers most frequently break the speed limit on duty have been revealed in a Press Association investigation.
The league table shows startling differences in the rate at which speeding offences are committed by different forces each year.
Officers from Essex police - considered the home county of the "boy racer" - topped the table with 5,269 in just six months - a rate of 3.26 per officer per year.
Second highest was Bedfordshire with 2,519 in a year, or a rate of 2.04 for each officer.
In all, forces admitted officers had triggered speed cameras a staggering 45,741 times.
In the vast majority of cases, officers were exempted from fixed penalty fines and prosecution because they were speeding on a 999 call or on other operational duties.
Only 934, or two per cent of the total, were given a £60 penalty ticket, taken to court or still had cases pending.
The RAC Foundation said the results showed some forces police were over-using the exemption powers and suggested some police officers believed they had "carte blanche" to break the speed limit regardless of whether they were on a 999 call.
The huge variations in the number of incidents raises questions about whether forces across the UK are dealing with speeding police drivers consistently.
The survey data, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, showed huge variations in the number of speeding cases in neighbouring forces, and in how senior officers decided to deal with them.
Police Caught Speeding 45,000 Times.
Caught on camera: Police officers have been recorded breaking the speed limit more than 45,000 times in one year.
Police officers were caught driving too fast by speed cameras more than 45,000 times in the last year, it has been revealed.
And the forces whose officers most frequently break the speed limit on duty have been revealed in a Press Association investigation.
The league table shows startling differences in the rate at which speeding offences are committed by different forces each year.
Officers from Essex police - considered the home county of the "boy racer" - topped the table with 5,269 in just six months - a rate of 3.26 per officer per year.
Second highest was Bedfordshire with 2,519 in a year, or a rate of 2.04 for each officer.
In all, forces admitted officers had triggered speed cameras a staggering 45,741 times.
In the vast majority of cases, officers were exempted from fixed penalty fines and prosecution because they were speeding on a 999 call or on other operational duties.
Only 934, or two per cent of the total, were given a £60 penalty ticket, taken to court or still had cases pending.
The RAC Foundation said the results showed some forces police were over-using the exemption powers and suggested some police officers believed they had "carte blanche" to break the speed limit regardless of whether they were on a 999 call.
The huge variations in the number of incidents raises questions about whether forces across the UK are dealing with speeding police drivers consistently.
The survey data, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, showed huge variations in the number of speeding cases in neighbouring forces, and in how senior officers decided to deal with them.
So how does one handle this then?
One argument might be that this sort of apparent general abuse of speed might explain the apparently increasing number of serious accidents involving police vehicles. But that would only be reasonable if investigations showed there were no other factors involved in those collisions.
Or one might argue that the numbers go some way towards proving that the speed only primary focus is clearly recognised as not being the safety issue we are told it is. And that would be a good message to put before the public if there is to be a real attempt to educate the majority of road users.
I much prefer the second message which I believe is likely to be the more appropriate interpretation of the numbers.
One argument might be that this sort of apparent general abuse of speed might explain the apparently increasing number of serious accidents involving police vehicles. But that would only be reasonable if investigations showed there were no other factors involved in those collisions.
Or one might argue that the numbers go some way towards proving that the speed only primary focus is clearly recognised as not being the safety issue we are told it is. And that would be a good message to put before the public if there is to be a real attempt to educate the majority of road users.
I much prefer the second message which I believe is likely to be the more appropriate interpretation of the numbers.
LongQ said:
So how does one handle this then?
One argument might be that this sort of apparent general abuse of speed might explain the apparently increasing number of serious accidents involving police vehicles. But that would only be reasonable if investigations showed there were no other factors involved in those collisions.
Or one might argue that the numbers go some way towards proving that the speed only primary focus is clearly recognised as not being the safety issue we are told it is. And that would be a good message to put before the public if there is to be a real attempt to educate the majority of road users.
I much prefer the second message which I believe is likely to be the more appropriate interpretation of the numbers.
The second message is the right one IMHO. I'm really not bothered about speeding police drivers as long they're not having shunts, but please can the rest of us be treated on the same basis.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
lambo cop said:
Let us take an average day in the Metropolitan Police area…..Approx 12000 – 15000 recorded incidents everyday. Of those lets say 7000 of them are graded immediate which means its and emergency call so use the blues and twos. Okay lets say one police vehicle is dispatched to each of these 7000 calls and lets say each one of them sets off a Gatso (Not hard in London due the amount of them). Right this is only very loose calculation but that means 7000 flashes per day in the Met alone.
Still with me ?
Okay Met works 365 days a year so that works out at roughly 2,555000 flashes per year for the Met alone, not counting the rest of the police in the UK.
Okay all of the above is only approximate because don’t forget not every call will set off a Gatso and a lot of the calls are dealt with by more than one car and they might all set off a camera.
Therefore the amount quoted in this thread is very low in my opinion after breaking it down into the amount of work just one force does in the UK.
I wish motoring groups would get off our backs over these figures all the time. If not as I have said before on this site police drivers will refuse to run on Blues and Twos and just sit in the traffic at the speed limit and watch the crime rate climb.
Is this what you want ?????
We have been told repeatedly by the Police that speed kills. We are told that the chance of survival from being hit by a car at 30mph are 80% whilst the chances at 40mph are 10%. This is the reason we are given for the thousands of convictions for 37mph in 30mph limits 24 hours a day / 7 days a week. Getting hit by a Police officer is no different from being hit by anybody else. If speed is dangerous then it is dangerous and no amount of driver training will alter the fact. You reap what you sow and by supporting the camera partnerships in their unholy crusade the Poice have brought their actions under close scrutiny. I'm not saying it is fair but thats how it is.
As we know (or so we are told) 45,000 people breaking the speed limit must equal at least 400 gravestones. Or something like that.
Of course, by choosing to exceed the speed limit we are taking the physical act of helping to kill defenseless children.
Of course this isnt true. But this is what we are told. I also believe that if the above completely false and blanket statments wernt rammed down our throats on the TV, Camera Vans, advertising on the side of buses, and if experienced and safe drivers wernt being fined each year and falling foul of the spin I really do not think that this issue would be of any media interest whatsoever.
Of course, it is not the case that the police are driving any faster than they used to 5 or 10 or more years ago, just the number of cameras have grown exponentially and given the results. What we also need to remember that traffic police and any other police officers do not have any input to the speed kills rhetoric, and probably know as well as us or more so about how inefective and sly it is.
For this reason, I do not think it is fair to lump the scamerati's spin as coming from the officers mouths. Unlike cameras, police officers have the ability of making a judgement based on a particular incident and their own experience, and many do not agree with the placement or use of cameras in the same way we do not.
Of course, by choosing to exceed the speed limit we are taking the physical act of helping to kill defenseless children.
Of course this isnt true. But this is what we are told. I also believe that if the above completely false and blanket statments wernt rammed down our throats on the TV, Camera Vans, advertising on the side of buses, and if experienced and safe drivers wernt being fined each year and falling foul of the spin I really do not think that this issue would be of any media interest whatsoever.
Of course, it is not the case that the police are driving any faster than they used to 5 or 10 or more years ago, just the number of cameras have grown exponentially and given the results. What we also need to remember that traffic police and any other police officers do not have any input to the speed kills rhetoric, and probably know as well as us or more so about how inefective and sly it is.
For this reason, I do not think it is fair to lump the scamerati's spin as coming from the officers mouths. Unlike cameras, police officers have the ability of making a judgement based on a particular incident and their own experience, and many do not agree with the placement or use of cameras in the same way we do not.
lambo cop, I didn't say it was my world, I was only giving a possible reason to your question, as to why people are questioning the actions of the police. I am a strong supporter of road enforcement being carried out by trained police officers and have communicated that fact to my local Police Federation and the Chief Constable. I think I would be correct though in believing that many individual Policemen are operating the camera partnerships vehicles. Do these Policemen operate the vans in the same manner as they would if operating a police vehicle? Do they set the threshold limits where they are told to or do they use discretion? I would put money on it that if they returned to base with no potential prosecutions they would be told their overtime golden cow would be under threat. Perhaps the problem is too much secrecy and the partnerships are missing one important partner - the motoring public.
lambo cop said:
I wish motoring groups would get off our backs over these figures all the time. If not as I have said before on this site police drivers will refuse to run on Blues and Twos and just sit in the traffic at the speed limit and watch the crime rate climb.
Fully agree with you mate but I wish that the Scammers and Politicians would get off everybodys backs on this - unfortunately the whole 'speed kills' philosphy has done more harm than good, with more and more people being convicted of 'non-crimes' and turned against the 'system' which, like it or not includes the Police, yet no improvement in road safety - so for what benefit?
We see levels of sentencing constantly being 'upgraded' for motorists and being 'downgraded' for serious criminals, it almost seems that before long there will only be one level of sentence for any crime - 5 yrs prison whether you murder an old lady or drive at 80 mph on the motorway
Bring back the good old days when people mostly only got banned by 'totting up' if they deserved it and death rates on the roads were no worse than they are now, but with much less safe cars.
Unfortunately a whole generation of people, including some of the younger BiB have 'grown up' (brainwashed) with 'Speed Kills' and I fear it might be too late to return to common sense.
The people that have allowed these Scumbag Camera Partenerships to exist should not only resign but hang their heads in shame for what they have done
Todays Daily Express has a story on this as their front page article.
Two quotes particularly depressed me:
RAC Head of traffic and road safety Kevin Delaney - "It seems the Met is working from a presumption that every cop who triggers a speed camera must have a good reason to do so. That presumption is the wrong way round."
Mr Delaney WTF are you talking about? Does that mean for all the journeys that Lambo details you would waste even more police time investigating the police who are trying to investigate the criminals? Aaarrghghg. RAC I've already terminated my membership because I'm sick of you claiming to represent me and spouting rubbish!
Or how about Roadpeace President Brigitte Chaudhry - "Just from simple observation one sees that almost every police car seems to be going faster than it should".
So Brigitte has a laser speed meter installed in her eyeballs and a link to the police computer systems to instantly know the reason for the journeys she has witnessed all these police cars making? Or perhaps all cars are travelling faster than they should by Ms Chaudhry's estimation, simply by the fact that they are moving at all.
I give up! I can see how the public are becoming frustrated by a seeming one rule for the police and another for them, but the solution is not to stop the police "speeding". The solution is to stop the fking nanny state politics and quangos and get back to a sensible road safety policy.
I knew I shouldn't have read the Daily
! 
>> Edited by 711 on Tuesday 27th December 22:11
Two quotes particularly depressed me:
RAC Head of traffic and road safety Kevin Delaney - "It seems the Met is working from a presumption that every cop who triggers a speed camera must have a good reason to do so. That presumption is the wrong way round."
Mr Delaney WTF are you talking about? Does that mean for all the journeys that Lambo details you would waste even more police time investigating the police who are trying to investigate the criminals? Aaarrghghg. RAC I've already terminated my membership because I'm sick of you claiming to represent me and spouting rubbish!
Or how about Roadpeace President Brigitte Chaudhry - "Just from simple observation one sees that almost every police car seems to be going faster than it should".
So Brigitte has a laser speed meter installed in her eyeballs and a link to the police computer systems to instantly know the reason for the journeys she has witnessed all these police cars making? Or perhaps all cars are travelling faster than they should by Ms Chaudhry's estimation, simply by the fact that they are moving at all.
I give up! I can see how the public are becoming frustrated by a seeming one rule for the police and another for them, but the solution is not to stop the police "speeding". The solution is to stop the fking nanny state politics and quangos and get back to a sensible road safety policy.
I knew I shouldn't have read the Daily
! >> Edited by 711 on Tuesday 27th December 22:11
So, as we all know, it seems the police may be losing the publics respect as a direct result of the general loathing of speed camera partnerships, hence the growth in anti-police journalism.
That's how I feel anyway. I see camera vans preying on dual carriageways several times a week, maybe operated by a civilian or police officer on over-time, catching hundreds of motorists driving perfectly safely but above the number.
When they're caught like that they are in effect being punished for driving safely.
No wonder the strength of ill-feeling then, untill the greedy SCP's are scrapped I guess.
That's how I feel anyway. I see camera vans preying on dual carriageways several times a week, maybe operated by a civilian or police officer on over-time, catching hundreds of motorists driving perfectly safely but above the number.
When they're caught like that they are in effect being punished for driving safely.
No wonder the strength of ill-feeling then, untill the greedy SCP's are scrapped I guess.
lambo cop said:I suggest this has much to do with the increasingly lower level of respect paid to the police. Whilst there is an element of a "mods-and-rockers" scenario at work, Joe (and Joanna) Public do associate these figures with reports of a senior police officer ordering his driver to speed simply because he was late for a meeting ... and getting away with it!
[ ... ] I wish motoring groups would get off our backs over these figures all the time ...
lambo cop said:Hmm. How many crimes are detected in the course of their execution? Apart from "speeding" that is? I submit that most times the police arrive post facto.
[ ... ] I have said before on this site police drivers will refuse to run on Blues and Twos and just sit in the traffic at the speed limit and watch the crime rate climb.
Streaky
lambo cop said:
Okay, Lets live in "rewc's" world.......I tell you what mate I would not have become a police officer I would have become a criminal knowing full well I could rob any bank going and know full well that the police were sitting in the traffic and could not get to me.
Can you not rob banks aswell and get immunity as a a cop
Both speeding and bank robbery are crimes afterall.Great post Jamesson 
Are people seriously complaining about Police breaking the speed limit with blues and twos on? I for one am glad that they do. They receive comprehensive training and have the lights and sirens. If we are talking non-emergency calls then that is another matter.
I have heard that all TrafPol have to fill in forms justifying each camera they trigger. More paperwork when they could (and no doubt would prefer to) be out there catching crooks.
Are people seriously complaining about Police breaking the speed limit with blues and twos on? I for one am glad that they do. They receive comprehensive training and have the lights and sirens. If we are talking non-emergency calls then that is another matter.
I have heard that all TrafPol have to fill in forms justifying each camera they trigger. More paperwork when they could (and no doubt would prefer to) be out there catching crooks.
jamesson said:
Why aren't you complaining that fire engines and ambulances exceed the speed limit? Or is that just because they don't issue tickets and have nothing to do with speed cameras?
That is probably the most pertinent point I have heard on this subject of 'police speeding'.
I think that the backlash against the camera policy was only a matter of time. The powers that be have decided to link both some policy making aspects and enforcement to the police. I guess this was done to add an air of respectability and authority to the process, however the linking has been so public and the subtle increase in the camera and speed policy that the situation has now got out of control.
I have recently seen a warning sign not for 'Speed Cameras', not even the laughable 'Safety Cameras' but for 'Police Cameras'. The outcome of this is that if a safe driver momentarily drives at a speed above the stated number in the red circle, that they are then in trouble with the police. They then feel like 'one of them'. If they have been accused wrongly and have the guts to stand up against the system and not accept the points and fine, they then have to go to court and be tried like a burglar or thug. The only difference is that unless they have hundreds or thousands of pounds for a solicitor they will have to defend themselves. This means unlike the burglar or thug who will be given representation, in court someone who has never been 'in trouble with the police' before let alone be in a courtroom must present a case to the court against a professional and experienced CPS solicitor. The additional benefit is not that now they have had the audacity of rejecting the £60 fine, they can expect a fine and costs which a probably 3 4 or 5 times more than this.
If someone had been put through this system, how would this affect their views of the 'police cameras' and the legal system? Unfortunately the more people who are flashed by cameras, the more people out there who are thinking this way. This can only be damaging to our whole law and order system.
This brings me back to the original point. If the public are wrongly being criminalised by this policy, it is understandable if they feel that the police may be criminalised in the same way. My point is that neither the public or police should have been criminalised in the first place.
jamesson said:
Good post . . .
Great post, really good to hear you say these things, but how about you and your colleagues trying to help do something about the speed cameras ? You have a far louder voice than any of us - is there anyting you can do to help speed up the eradication of these killer devices ?
jamesson said:
My voice is about as quiet as it gets - just a lowly PC with bills to pay and orders to follow. If I ever become Chief Constable, rest assured I will take on whatever government is in office and throw at them the REAL statistics behind speeding! I wish we were able to ticket pedestrians for dangerous walking, or similar. They cause more RTCs than anything else - something like seven out of ten? Perhaps PHer safespeed can supply more accurate figures?
I think the level of common sense displayed by many bobbies precludes them from ever climbing the slippery pole.
The fact that automatic enforcement is being inflicted on the population as a whole is insane but to then inflict similar enforcement policies on the emergency services beggars belief. Get rid of cameras and replace them with trafpol and your scamera paper work will disappear overnight.
jamesson said:
Why aren't you complaining that fire engines and ambulances exceed the speed limit? Or is that just because they don't issue tickets and have nothing to do with speed cameras?
Personally I'm not complaining about BiB speeding just that the 'speed kills' obsession has gone too far and is inevitably affecting public/police relations, I don't know about Fire Engines but it seems that Ambulances are 'fair game' for the Scammers - a few years ago one of my kids needed to be taken by emergency Ambulance to Hospital and we were told 'do not try to keep up with us as we will be going fast' yet this year we had the same situation again (different child) and when I asked for directions to the Hospital, I was told 'just follow us, we're not allowed to exceed speed limits anymore anyway' now although I didn't ask why (was preoccupied with other things) I assume that this is because of all the high profile Ambulance Scamming
[quote]
I have had in the region of 12 weeks driver training from the police and am a disciplined driver and know that when it’s safe I can use my exemption of the speed limit on an emergency call. Also I have lights and sirens to aid when using this exemption.
[/quote]
cool, i've passed my ards test, been motor-racing for 5 years, and my car has a horn and lights i can flash.
see you out there.
I have had in the region of 12 weeks driver training from the police and am a disciplined driver and know that when it’s safe I can use my exemption of the speed limit on an emergency call. Also I have lights and sirens to aid when using this exemption.
[/quote]
cool, i've passed my ards test, been motor-racing for 5 years, and my car has a horn and lights i can flash.
see you out there.
reanimate said:
I have had in the region of 12 weeks driver training from the police and am a disciplined driver and know that when it’s safe I can use my exemption of the speed limit on an emergency call. Also I have lights and sirens to aid when using this exemption.
cool, i've passed my ards test, been motor-racing for 5 years, and my car has a horn and lights i can flash.
see you out there.
the difference is that you are doing it for your own personal gain, whereas the emergency services are there to help you and me. I have no idea what an ards test is, but unless you are ex-trafpol I sincerely doubt that you are trained to class 1 police driver level since as I understand it there is no such training available for civilians.
I can't quite understand people who begrudge emergency services their exemptions in case of emergency. If you or a loved one is having a heart attack or being burgled on your house is on fire I assume you will be OK with the ambulance/police car/fire engine sitting at lights waiting for them to change and not breaking any speed limits? Personally I would like them to do anything and everything that they can do to get there ASAFP!
>> Edited by NiceCupOfTea on Friday 30th December 01:31
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