And you thought speed limits were enforced in the UK?
Discussion
This post is a summary of my experiences owning a high-performance vehicle in what is probably the most anti-speed regime in the world: Victoria, Australia. Some of the content is anecdotal.
Enforcement in Victoria
----------------------------------------------------------------
Two years ago I thought speed enforcement in the UK was excessive, but it is easy to avoid assuming that trafpol will ignore mild speeding in "safe" conditions. My UK licence remains clean.
Since then living in Victoria I have come to learn just how harshly the limit can be applied:
* 3km/h tolerance (prosecution threshold). UK 10%+3
* Mandatory (!) ban & likely dangerous charges at 24km/h (~15mph) over the limit.
* Laser readings valid when 5 km away!
* Near total compliance amongst the driving population makes speeding of only 5km/h stand out
* Saturation police presence, zero discretion. I mean really, zero. An encounter with a police officer will ALWAYS result in prosecution for some offence.
* Hidden mobile speed cameras, using a variety of vehicles behind trees etc.
* Cameras shoot oncoming traffic meaning you have to see them before you pass them.
* Fixed cameras have no "feet" on the road and are non-standard in design, plus hidden
* Oncoming police vehicles may get a speed reading when more than 1km distant, making avoidance difficult
* Police vehicles cruise well above the normal speed limit thus approach from behind at speed
But the most frightening part is that ANYONE may be prosecuted at any time for "defective vehicle" and "anti-hoon" offences. This means that drawing attention to yourself in any way is likely to result in a ticket. For example, you may be prosecuted for:
* "Excessive display of acceleration" ie. accelerating "unnecessarily" quickly, in the opinion of the officer.
* Racing on the street (nb matching the speed of a flash-looking vehicle out of the lights is "racing"
* "Causing unnecessary noise" ie using the 3-8K RPM range
* Driving a defective vehicle
Some of the offences sound reasonable - I don't think people should be racing on the street. I am particularly concerned about people driving "defective" vehicles, but this law is enforced only against high-performance vehicles. And the police themselves will admit that it is possible to "defect" a brand new generic sedan straight out of the showroom. The roads are littered with fallen retreads and cars held together with cable ties drive with impunity. On the other hand "targeted" vehicles may be towed for 3 or more "defects" such as (taken from a quick trawl of recent posts):
- less than 10cm clearance on an uneven surface (this can get ANY car)
- "nearly empty" washer fluid
- wires not secured every 15cm
- worn pedal rubber
- numberplate "not visible" when using factory holder + position (!)
- numberplate lights "not bright enough"
- numberplate "dirty"
- more than 6 clicks possible on the handbrake
- tyres not rated for more than 140 km/h when national limit 110 km/h
Driving a defective vehicle is accompanied by 3 points just like serious speeding offences, so 4 hits and you're gone.
One "offence" I have committed was "excessive exhaust noise" which is not measured by any equipment but only by the ear of the trafpol. When tested my vehicle was found to be under the limit at 86db (90 limit) but the fine still stands!
Many of the offences are subjective in this manner. This is terrifying, because you cannot hide behind the letter of an objective or absolute law. The only recourse is to avoid police attention wherever possible.
Modifications are also regularly the subject of defects. Arbitrary laws such as "only 1 intake modification" and "no fuelling mods" are very frustrating to motor enthusiasts. Everyone is very limited by what is possible with both classic and modern cars: Carby changes, turbo changes, fuel injection upgrades etc - all are banned. The use of aftermarket parts (e.g. oil filters, spark plugs) in home service (indeed the whole notion of home servicing) is quasi-legal. Further, the police are authorised to dismantle your vehicle at the roadside to uncover suspected hidden modifications and in two cases that I know of have refused to make tools available for the owner to rebuild the car and continue the journey, making towing essential.
Driving in Victoria
---------------------------------------------------
There was an accident on the freeway on my way to work this morning. There is an accident nearly EVERY morning on the 25km section of freeway I cover. For the last 4 weeks I have kept a tally of the number of accidents on this small piece of road:
Trips: 12
Accidents (aftermath) encountered: 9
Speed limit: 100 km/h (62mph)
Actual speed: 70-103 km/h
Notes: Good weather conditions, 3/4 lane freeway with graded jcts. and hard shoulder on both inside and outside of road.
Why are there so many accidents on such a slow, (and in theory) safe road? I mean 62 mph motorway conditions FFS.
I believe the answer may be found in the attitudes and actions of the drivers rather than the speed they drive at.
- Lane discipline has all but disappeared.
- It may take several km for one car to overtake another.
- Speed differentials between lanes are typically 0.0 .. 2.0 km/h
- Undertaking is probably more common than overtaking.
- Cars will sit in any lane at any speed.
- Extreme tailgating is almost universal (we're talking 1m separation here)
- HGV and police drivers also regularly tailgate
- Few drivers use headlights in heavy rain, fog or other poor light conditions
- Aggressive & wilfully obstructive manoeuvres are commonplace e.g. accelerating harshly to cut off a driver changing lanes. This is my biggest issue: When considering a manoeuvre, you are more often than not disadvantaged by indicating because the extra warning will cause other drivers to take erratic and hasty action to prevent your achievement
Most drivers operate in a sort of zombie funk, cruising along paying scant attention to the road. Often they will drift across lanes or just move into the sides of other vehicles that have been alongside for several minutes, as if they have forgotten that the parallel vehicle exists. A regular sight is someone using a mobile phone, looking out of the side window when 1-2m from the vehicle in front at 100 km/h. Moving road blocks of parallel vehicles in all lanes are a daily sight. The formation may last for miles without breaking. Many drivers watch TV while driving (you can see the screen when following). Many drivers (including HGVs) "wander" within their lane, so that the wheels hit the rumble strips or cross into the adjacent lane. Again and again cars will attempt crazy stunts such as swerving across 4 lanes to make an exit, reversing up the slipway and stopping on the road. Often indicators are left flashing for minutes, in nonsensical directions. This bad behaviour is far more common than on British roads.
It is worth noting that all of the bad behaviour mentioned above is NOT targeted or prosecuted by police. I have seen police vehicles (marked and unmarked) ignore outrageously dangerous driving, and I have witnessed several police vehicles tailgating. Only last week, a marked police vehicle approached me from behind at a closing speed of 20-30 km/h before braking sharply and ending up just 2m from my rear bumper. They proceeded to weave left and right for a few seconds at that distance before accelerating past without indicating. Since the lanes alongside me were clear on their approach, the whole episode was clearly an attempt to intimidate or incite.
Effect on my driving skills
-----------------------------
My time in Victoria has severely retarded my own driving ability. It is rare that I get the opportunity to visit a racetrack or fast windy country road and everywhere else I rigidly comply with speed limits. As a result, I have largely lost the ability to judge corner entry speeds and require a couple of hours practice to regain something of this skill. I have no idea what my stopping distance is anymore - I never have the opportunity to brake sharply or practice such techniques.
When back in the UK I noticed that something has changed in my brain - something to do with low-level visual processing such that I can no longer cope safely with 80 mph motorway driving. What used to be effortless accounting for all vehicles around me now requires intense concentration to track cars between mirrors. I put this down to the low speed differentials I now experience. Effectively, I can't subconsciously keep track of surrounding vehicles. This ability has been almost totally lost due to lack of use.
On the other hand I am superb at maintaining my speed with extraordinary precision. I can drive within a tolerance of 1km/h (0.6 mph) for sustained periods (I have a digital speedo). I habitually glance at the speedo every couple of seconds, more frequently in built-up areas where I will be accelerating or moving through different speed limits.
Speed limits in Victoria are generally low compared to UK limits, 50kmh (31mph) in residential areas but 40 km/h (24mph) in many shopping/nightlife areas. 40 km/h zones are rapidly expanding and there are now several main roads in my suburb with 4 lanes and 24 mph speed limits, with no buildings alongside, no junctions or turnings without lights, and good visibility. In contrast there are many 60 km/h streets with parked cars, single lane each way, lots of pedestrians etc.
Thus to a large extent the speed limits are NOT a good indicator of safe travelling speed, yet largely determine actual vehicle speeds. Very few vehicles travel slower than the speed limit even when it is dangerous to go that fast. Universally, the speed limits are treated as a value that should be matched. Social pressure and rigid enforcement of nonsensical limits have largely ended my practice of judging a "safe speed" for the conditions, and replaced it with a habit of travelling at the speed limit regardless of other factors.
The government regularly runs ad campaigns on TV drumming it into people that precise compliance with the speed limit is the last word in road safety, and emphasizing (or rather, insinuating) that so long as you are not even 1 km/h over the limit, you are not responsible for accidents. The media play along - every news story regarding a motor accident mentions vehicle speeds in comparison to the limit as one of the key factors.
The future for the UK
----------------------------
Unless something changes, I believe this is the direction UK roads are headed. The reality is increased danger, reduced individual responsibility and absolute compliance. I didn't believe total compliance was possible - but it is! And it's the most terrible situation you could imagine.
regards
dave
Enforcement in Victoria
----------------------------------------------------------------
Two years ago I thought speed enforcement in the UK was excessive, but it is easy to avoid assuming that trafpol will ignore mild speeding in "safe" conditions. My UK licence remains clean.
Since then living in Victoria I have come to learn just how harshly the limit can be applied:
* 3km/h tolerance (prosecution threshold). UK 10%+3
* Mandatory (!) ban & likely dangerous charges at 24km/h (~15mph) over the limit.
* Laser readings valid when 5 km away!
* Near total compliance amongst the driving population makes speeding of only 5km/h stand out
* Saturation police presence, zero discretion. I mean really, zero. An encounter with a police officer will ALWAYS result in prosecution for some offence.
* Hidden mobile speed cameras, using a variety of vehicles behind trees etc.
* Cameras shoot oncoming traffic meaning you have to see them before you pass them.
* Fixed cameras have no "feet" on the road and are non-standard in design, plus hidden
* Oncoming police vehicles may get a speed reading when more than 1km distant, making avoidance difficult
* Police vehicles cruise well above the normal speed limit thus approach from behind at speed
But the most frightening part is that ANYONE may be prosecuted at any time for "defective vehicle" and "anti-hoon" offences. This means that drawing attention to yourself in any way is likely to result in a ticket. For example, you may be prosecuted for:
* "Excessive display of acceleration" ie. accelerating "unnecessarily" quickly, in the opinion of the officer.
* Racing on the street (nb matching the speed of a flash-looking vehicle out of the lights is "racing"
* "Causing unnecessary noise" ie using the 3-8K RPM range
* Driving a defective vehicle
Some of the offences sound reasonable - I don't think people should be racing on the street. I am particularly concerned about people driving "defective" vehicles, but this law is enforced only against high-performance vehicles. And the police themselves will admit that it is possible to "defect" a brand new generic sedan straight out of the showroom. The roads are littered with fallen retreads and cars held together with cable ties drive with impunity. On the other hand "targeted" vehicles may be towed for 3 or more "defects" such as (taken from a quick trawl of recent posts):
- less than 10cm clearance on an uneven surface (this can get ANY car)
- "nearly empty" washer fluid
- wires not secured every 15cm
- worn pedal rubber
- numberplate "not visible" when using factory holder + position (!)
- numberplate lights "not bright enough"
- numberplate "dirty"
- more than 6 clicks possible on the handbrake
- tyres not rated for more than 140 km/h when national limit 110 km/h
Driving a defective vehicle is accompanied by 3 points just like serious speeding offences, so 4 hits and you're gone.
One "offence" I have committed was "excessive exhaust noise" which is not measured by any equipment but only by the ear of the trafpol. When tested my vehicle was found to be under the limit at 86db (90 limit) but the fine still stands!
Many of the offences are subjective in this manner. This is terrifying, because you cannot hide behind the letter of an objective or absolute law. The only recourse is to avoid police attention wherever possible.
Modifications are also regularly the subject of defects. Arbitrary laws such as "only 1 intake modification" and "no fuelling mods" are very frustrating to motor enthusiasts. Everyone is very limited by what is possible with both classic and modern cars: Carby changes, turbo changes, fuel injection upgrades etc - all are banned. The use of aftermarket parts (e.g. oil filters, spark plugs) in home service (indeed the whole notion of home servicing) is quasi-legal. Further, the police are authorised to dismantle your vehicle at the roadside to uncover suspected hidden modifications and in two cases that I know of have refused to make tools available for the owner to rebuild the car and continue the journey, making towing essential.
Driving in Victoria
---------------------------------------------------
There was an accident on the freeway on my way to work this morning. There is an accident nearly EVERY morning on the 25km section of freeway I cover. For the last 4 weeks I have kept a tally of the number of accidents on this small piece of road:
Trips: 12
Accidents (aftermath) encountered: 9
Speed limit: 100 km/h (62mph)
Actual speed: 70-103 km/h
Notes: Good weather conditions, 3/4 lane freeway with graded jcts. and hard shoulder on both inside and outside of road.
Why are there so many accidents on such a slow, (and in theory) safe road? I mean 62 mph motorway conditions FFS.
I believe the answer may be found in the attitudes and actions of the drivers rather than the speed they drive at.
- Lane discipline has all but disappeared.
- It may take several km for one car to overtake another.
- Speed differentials between lanes are typically 0.0 .. 2.0 km/h
- Undertaking is probably more common than overtaking.
- Cars will sit in any lane at any speed.
- Extreme tailgating is almost universal (we're talking 1m separation here)
- HGV and police drivers also regularly tailgate
- Few drivers use headlights in heavy rain, fog or other poor light conditions
- Aggressive & wilfully obstructive manoeuvres are commonplace e.g. accelerating harshly to cut off a driver changing lanes. This is my biggest issue: When considering a manoeuvre, you are more often than not disadvantaged by indicating because the extra warning will cause other drivers to take erratic and hasty action to prevent your achievement
Most drivers operate in a sort of zombie funk, cruising along paying scant attention to the road. Often they will drift across lanes or just move into the sides of other vehicles that have been alongside for several minutes, as if they have forgotten that the parallel vehicle exists. A regular sight is someone using a mobile phone, looking out of the side window when 1-2m from the vehicle in front at 100 km/h. Moving road blocks of parallel vehicles in all lanes are a daily sight. The formation may last for miles without breaking. Many drivers watch TV while driving (you can see the screen when following). Many drivers (including HGVs) "wander" within their lane, so that the wheels hit the rumble strips or cross into the adjacent lane. Again and again cars will attempt crazy stunts such as swerving across 4 lanes to make an exit, reversing up the slipway and stopping on the road. Often indicators are left flashing for minutes, in nonsensical directions. This bad behaviour is far more common than on British roads.
It is worth noting that all of the bad behaviour mentioned above is NOT targeted or prosecuted by police. I have seen police vehicles (marked and unmarked) ignore outrageously dangerous driving, and I have witnessed several police vehicles tailgating. Only last week, a marked police vehicle approached me from behind at a closing speed of 20-30 km/h before braking sharply and ending up just 2m from my rear bumper. They proceeded to weave left and right for a few seconds at that distance before accelerating past without indicating. Since the lanes alongside me were clear on their approach, the whole episode was clearly an attempt to intimidate or incite.
Effect on my driving skills
-----------------------------
My time in Victoria has severely retarded my own driving ability. It is rare that I get the opportunity to visit a racetrack or fast windy country road and everywhere else I rigidly comply with speed limits. As a result, I have largely lost the ability to judge corner entry speeds and require a couple of hours practice to regain something of this skill. I have no idea what my stopping distance is anymore - I never have the opportunity to brake sharply or practice such techniques.
When back in the UK I noticed that something has changed in my brain - something to do with low-level visual processing such that I can no longer cope safely with 80 mph motorway driving. What used to be effortless accounting for all vehicles around me now requires intense concentration to track cars between mirrors. I put this down to the low speed differentials I now experience. Effectively, I can't subconsciously keep track of surrounding vehicles. This ability has been almost totally lost due to lack of use.
On the other hand I am superb at maintaining my speed with extraordinary precision. I can drive within a tolerance of 1km/h (0.6 mph) for sustained periods (I have a digital speedo). I habitually glance at the speedo every couple of seconds, more frequently in built-up areas where I will be accelerating or moving through different speed limits.
Speed limits in Victoria are generally low compared to UK limits, 50kmh (31mph) in residential areas but 40 km/h (24mph) in many shopping/nightlife areas. 40 km/h zones are rapidly expanding and there are now several main roads in my suburb with 4 lanes and 24 mph speed limits, with no buildings alongside, no junctions or turnings without lights, and good visibility. In contrast there are many 60 km/h streets with parked cars, single lane each way, lots of pedestrians etc.
Thus to a large extent the speed limits are NOT a good indicator of safe travelling speed, yet largely determine actual vehicle speeds. Very few vehicles travel slower than the speed limit even when it is dangerous to go that fast. Universally, the speed limits are treated as a value that should be matched. Social pressure and rigid enforcement of nonsensical limits have largely ended my practice of judging a "safe speed" for the conditions, and replaced it with a habit of travelling at the speed limit regardless of other factors.
The government regularly runs ad campaigns on TV drumming it into people that precise compliance with the speed limit is the last word in road safety, and emphasizing (or rather, insinuating) that so long as you are not even 1 km/h over the limit, you are not responsible for accidents. The media play along - every news story regarding a motor accident mentions vehicle speeds in comparison to the limit as one of the key factors.
The future for the UK
----------------------------
Unless something changes, I believe this is the direction UK roads are headed. The reality is increased danger, reduced individual responsibility and absolute compliance. I didn't believe total compliance was possible - but it is! And it's the most terrible situation you could imagine.
regards
dave
davidra said:
The future for the UK
----------------------------
Unless something changes, I believe this is the direction UK roads are headed. The reality is increased danger, reduced individual responsibility and absolute compliance. I didn't believe total compliance was possible - but it is! And it's the most terrible situation you could imagine.
regards
dave
I suspect that's where we're heading. Sounds brilliant, they've finally managed to make everyone legal and therefor safe, it's the will of society that laws are enforced like that, you shouldn't complain it's for your own good, anyway you know the law and only have yourself to blame if you are caught, you shouldn't let other people frustrate you (talking idiots who take a blinkered and prejudiced view to road safety here, not other drivers).
Carping on the sidelines is one solution to the problem of course - and when the population realise and appreciate the value of the overbearing cynic, the keys to number 10 will be yours.
Or do you have a alternative suggestion, Greenie?
Sorry to read about the deterioration in your driving skills davidra - have you considered one of the excellent coaches who ply their trade to improve them again?
Or do you have a alternative suggestion, Greenie?
Sorry to read about the deterioration in your driving skills davidra - have you considered one of the excellent coaches who ply their trade to improve them again?
7db said:
Or do you have a alternative suggestion, Greenie?
Yes, a sensible road safety policy that doesn't penalise sensible and prudent drivers for doing something that they believe is safe, and that most other sensible and prudent drivers also believe is safe and do routinely. We were doing fine until this recent obsession with numerical speed.
If this is the future in the UK - shoot me............It just re-inforces Safespeed's messages about blanket speed enforcement and the really frightening part was the loss of observational/hazard awareness skills due to blind adherence to limits. Lets hope that our 'betters' in Westminster wake up to this before we go down the Aussie route.
Mandatory re-tests every 10 years should do it, every 5 years for inexperienced drivers.
Also, driving examination passes should be graded rather that just pass/fail. The idea being that if you're close to a fail, you have to take another test a year down the line. If you're close to 100% perfect, you don't take another test for 5 years.
Also, driving examination passes should be graded rather that just pass/fail. The idea being that if you're close to a fail, you have to take another test a year down the line. If you're close to 100% perfect, you don't take another test for 5 years.
Parrot of Doom said:
Mandatory re-tests every 10 years should do it, every 5 years for inexperienced drivers.
Also, driving examination passes should be graded rather that just pass/fail. The idea being that if you're close to a fail, you have to take another test a year down the line. If you're close to 100% perfect, you don't take another test for 5 years.
Dead against this one sorry PoD.
Another step down the road of 'Presumed' Guilt - in this case presumed guilty of falling driving standards.
It would also put too much power extra unnaccountable power into the hands of the politicians - Can you imagine what they'd make of such an opportunity.
How long would it take them to put up the cost of a test to £200, £300, £500 in a drive to reduce the number of cars 'hurting the planet' - "For Gods sake - think of the children" or reduce the number of driver allowed to 'Pass' to force more people onto public transport.
No, we already has a system that works and has worked well for a number of years, Pass your test, and unless you do something stupid and get caught, you don't need another test.
Let's not give the government a chance to micro-manage another aspect of our lives.
BB
I think re-tests ARE a good idea - there are a lot of people on the road at the moment who have allegedly passed a driving test, but whose displayed skills fall far short of the test-requirements.
Very interesting, very disturbing post...thanks for sharing it. Australia is, I thought, perceived as a more relaxed nation than the UK...but, on this evidence, not exactly.
OK, suggestions - what can WE do to try and avoid this scenario in the UK? Don't say petition, as we've seen what happens to them when they reach Whitehall.
Very interesting, very disturbing post...thanks for sharing it. Australia is, I thought, perceived as a more relaxed nation than the UK...but, on this evidence, not exactly.
OK, suggestions - what can WE do to try and avoid this scenario in the UK? Don't say petition, as we've seen what happens to them when they reach Whitehall.
I'm not sure the UK driving licence is really meant to be a certificate
of competance. It's just a permit to drive. It's something everyone can have has long as they pass
a basic test (stop, go, steer for 20 mins or so without doing too much
wrong). Its main purpose I think is something that can be taken away
from you if you do bad things. This used to mean things like driving while
p*ssed, wrong way up motorways etc. These days 10%+2 mph over in the wrong place will do it.
of competance. It's just a permit to drive. It's something everyone can have has long as they pass
a basic test (stop, go, steer for 20 mins or so without doing too much
wrong). Its main purpose I think is something that can be taken away
from you if you do bad things. This used to mean things like driving while
p*ssed, wrong way up motorways etc. These days 10%+2 mph over in the wrong place will do it.
havoc said:
I think re-tests ARE a good idea - there are a lot of people on the road at the moment who have allegedly passed a driving test, but whose displayed skills fall far short of the test-requirements.
Not sure if I'm right or wrong, but I think most people can drive well enough to be safe, just they choose not to.
In this country at least, I believe it to be an attitude problem. Changing their attitude towards driving would yield more improvement than simple re-tests, but thats a social problem, something which this government cares little about!
Dave
Mr Whippy - you may have a point there.
Anyway, what I wanted to say was there seem to be an increasing number of people who don't care if it's taken away or not. So I suppose re-tests wouldn't help there either!
lightspeed said:But with Whippy's attitude problem...I mean the one he describes, not the one he posesses...I mean he doesn't actually posess one...that I know of!
Its main purpose I think is something that can be taken away from you if you do bad things.
Anyway, what I wanted to say was there seem to be an increasing number of people who don't care if it's taken away or not. So I suppose re-tests wouldn't help there either!
Just so you know, I moved to New Zealand from the UK in 2000 when I was 43 years. One way or another I've driven huge distances in lots of different countries, but one of the features that really stood out when I first stated the school run in NZ was how slow everyone drove.....and how bad they were. I've since worked out it isn't deliberate bad driving, it's largely thoughtless driving - and like the OP I believe it's down to enforecement of speed limits and propoganda. As in Victoria all the adverts suggest that safety is about keeping to the speed limit, so most people do, but the crash rate is horrific. In six years I've been hit three times (including twice in one day), personally witnessed another half dozen incidents, and come across the scene of a recent "coming together" at least fifty times, sometimes it's on a daily basis.
However, overall the regime is cetainly more relaxed than Oz, ie there is a 10k tolerance above each limit and the actual limits themselves are usually reasonable..............except for the NSL of 100k (62mph), but I despair that the authorities will ever work out that rigidly keeping to speed limits creates more crashes. From what I can work out in all the incidents I've seen not a single one was caused by anyone exceeding a limit, they were all a result of driving too fast for the conditions. The attitude was summed up well by a letter to a local paper concerning a school situated on a 100k road, the writer of the letter said "it is my right to drive at 100k in a 100k zone, regardless of the school or the conditions".
Whoever said "government isn't the solution to the problem, government is the problem" was dead right.
However, overall the regime is cetainly more relaxed than Oz, ie there is a 10k tolerance above each limit and the actual limits themselves are usually reasonable..............except for the NSL of 100k (62mph), but I despair that the authorities will ever work out that rigidly keeping to speed limits creates more crashes. From what I can work out in all the incidents I've seen not a single one was caused by anyone exceeding a limit, they were all a result of driving too fast for the conditions. The attitude was summed up well by a letter to a local paper concerning a school situated on a 100k road, the writer of the letter said "it is my right to drive at 100k in a 100k zone, regardless of the school or the conditions".
Whoever said "government isn't the solution to the problem, government is the problem" was dead right.
Ten yrs ago, I went with my parents for a holiday in the Perth area. From the airport in Perth on the way to Merriden, WA- dad got pulled for speeding= warning. Few days later going back to Perth- pulled and fined in Kellerberrin (sp?). I was 11 at the time, I though it was cool as I got to have gander at the police car!
Parrot of Doom said:
Mandatory re-tests every 10 years should do it, every 5 years for inexperienced drivers.
Also, driving examination passes should be graded rather that just pass/fail. The idea being that if you're close to a fail, you have to take another test a year down the line. If you're close to 100% perfect, you don't take another test for 5 years.
I agree somewhat, having held similar beliefs for quite a while now - especially the older members of society.
The problem with the idea is that passing the driving test is a "right of passage into adulthood". There's only a chance of it being successful if there's either (or both) a tax break to redo the test or reduction/static insurance costs.
Even 5 years can be considered too long - and then there's the issue of daily drivers who fail. What do they do? Can't carry the stuff on bus or trains.
Equally there's the not insignificant administration of it all.
Lovely idea in theory, but as it is now, poor driving (leading to accidents) standards are "punished" by penalty and threat of losing licence/job/income/etc.
It ain't perfect, in fact it's archaic and out of step with large section of the populous, but it's what we have and we either like it or lump it.
>> Edited by pjskel on Tuesday 11th April 23:08
Victoria started the ball rolling on speed cameras.
You have to wonder how deranged and incompetent people manage to get into a position of control like these strange nutters....must be something to do with the sun.
What are casualty figures like in Victoria...?
Remember Brunstrom sanctioning cash from the North Wales Police budget to fund a junket to Victoria...?
Says it all really, doesn't it...?
You have to wonder how deranged and incompetent people manage to get into a position of control like these strange nutters....must be something to do with the sun.
What are casualty figures like in Victoria...?
Remember Brunstrom sanctioning cash from the North Wales Police budget to fund a junket to Victoria...?
Says it all really, doesn't it...?
There is one big difference between Australia and UK in this regard and you can see it every day on PH. Australian’s are very submissive towards the law and meekly believe any of the SK nonsense fed them by GovCo. In comparison there is a much more thoughtful debate going on in the UK not only on this site but many others. And then there is Paul at SafeSpeed, there is absolutely nothing like this in Australia. They have completely rolled over and given up down here, it’s very sad.
Like davidra it takes me a bit of time to adjust when I go back home but the joys of driving still exist for me in Scotland. At Christmas I drove from Edinburgh to Thurso in my sister’s Cooper S and had huge amounts of fun driving to the conditions (of course!) but still making progress.
The standard of driving in Australia is dire and despite all the speed enforcement their accident rates are still worse than UK or Germany. They really do believe that if you don’t exceed the speed limit you can’t have an accident!
I enjoy touring on my bike but I won’t go into Victoria on principle. NSW is bad but compared to Vic it’s easy – I’ve got better things to do than give the Vic GovCo my money and license.
Keep up the good fight – someone’s got to because they surrendered a long time ago down here.
Like davidra it takes me a bit of time to adjust when I go back home but the joys of driving still exist for me in Scotland. At Christmas I drove from Edinburgh to Thurso in my sister’s Cooper S and had huge amounts of fun driving to the conditions (of course!) but still making progress.
The standard of driving in Australia is dire and despite all the speed enforcement their accident rates are still worse than UK or Germany. They really do believe that if you don’t exceed the speed limit you can’t have an accident!
I enjoy touring on my bike but I won’t go into Victoria on principle. NSW is bad but compared to Vic it’s easy – I’ve got better things to do than give the Vic GovCo my money and license.
Keep up the good fight – someone’s got to because they surrendered a long time ago down here.
Those who commented that in general Australians are more compliant: it's true. It's quite funny sometimes when no-one will cross the road despite no traffic until the green man comes on.
For myself, when I return to the UK I will be driving very cautiously and much slower than when I left. I suspect it will take me a few months to be able to drive quickly (70-80mph+) again. Certainly, I might go to an instructor, but I think I am very conscious of my deficiencies and can retrain myself to some extent. It's not really skills that can be taught, but only learnt and maintained through experience.
For everyone else: Due to the change in attitude and general de-skilling of the driving population in Vic, I don't think they could raise the speed limits in the short term, or reduce enforcement. It's too late: Drivers here cannot be trusted!
Thank God for Paul Smith & the SafeSpeed campaign! I only hope it's not too late.
regards
dave
For myself, when I return to the UK I will be driving very cautiously and much slower than when I left. I suspect it will take me a few months to be able to drive quickly (70-80mph+) again. Certainly, I might go to an instructor, but I think I am very conscious of my deficiencies and can retrain myself to some extent. It's not really skills that can be taught, but only learnt and maintained through experience.
For everyone else: Due to the change in attitude and general de-skilling of the driving population in Vic, I don't think they could raise the speed limits in the short term, or reduce enforcement. It's too late: Drivers here cannot be trusted!
Thank God for Paul Smith & the SafeSpeed campaign! I only hope it's not too late.
regards
dave
whitney44 said:
If this is the future in the UK - shoot me............It just re-inforces Safespeed's messages about blanket speed enforcement and the really frightening part was the loss of observational/hazard awareness skills due to blind adherence to limits. Lets hope that our 'betters' in Westminster wake up to this before we go down the Aussie route.
I'm not sure it's the future, I think it's starting to happen here (though it's not that draconian - yet). I live in rural Norfolk so I don't drive on motorways that often, but I've noticed a deterioration in motorway driving recently - I think.
There appears to be an increase in everyone driving at the same speed with little or no lane discipline, people in Lane 3 'overtaking' at 69mph, with the consequent effects for bunching and traffic density, and not just when it is busy.
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