Rail Ticketing Issue
Discussion
Less than a month after my daughter's 18th birthday she takes a train (which is very rare for her) and pays a junior fare. She gets stopped by a ticket inspector and told she doesn't have a valid ticket for the journey. Apparently the ticket inspector snatched her NI Card from her purse (tho' really this is a separate issue) for ID. She was forced to give her name and address, to pay the full adult fare and forfeit the junior fare (the difference was only £1) and told she would receive a 'caution' and have to fill out a statement.
We have now received a letter from TIL who apparently act as agents for the train company. They are stating that she must send them a 'signed' statement giving her version of events and that the matter is now with their prosecutions team who are considering whether to issue a 'Summons for inclusion in a forthcoming list in a Magistrate's Court. These considerations may include whether any charge should allege an offence against Railway Byelaws (2005) or The Regulation of Railway Act 1889'
It further says that 'in any successful prosecution we will ask the Magistrate to award costs in favour of the rail Company in addition to any fine imposed' If any representation is not received within 14 days a Summons will be issued without further reference. There is nothing in the letter about a 'caution' but seems to be all about a prosecution.
I'm hoping the legal eagles on here can help with a couple of things. Can TIL ask for a written statement incriminating yourself/giving mitigation etc.Can TIL be ignored? Presumably they will list in a court in Cambridgeshire where they are based and we could ask for it to be transferred to nearer us. If we were to leave it in The Cambs court would the train company send the ticket inspector all that way to give evidence??
The mitigation is that she very rarely travels by train but here in Cardiff you can travel on a junior ticket by BUS up until your 19th birthday, a facility she used daily to get to college.
Daughter is now seeking a job having done quite well at college and it seems terrible that the age of 18 she will have a criminal conviction which she will have to declare having up until now a completely trouble free record.
Any help/advice/suggestions gratefully received.
We have now received a letter from TIL who apparently act as agents for the train company. They are stating that she must send them a 'signed' statement giving her version of events and that the matter is now with their prosecutions team who are considering whether to issue a 'Summons for inclusion in a forthcoming list in a Magistrate's Court. These considerations may include whether any charge should allege an offence against Railway Byelaws (2005) or The Regulation of Railway Act 1889'
It further says that 'in any successful prosecution we will ask the Magistrate to award costs in favour of the rail Company in addition to any fine imposed' If any representation is not received within 14 days a Summons will be issued without further reference. There is nothing in the letter about a 'caution' but seems to be all about a prosecution.
I'm hoping the legal eagles on here can help with a couple of things. Can TIL ask for a written statement incriminating yourself/giving mitigation etc.Can TIL be ignored? Presumably they will list in a court in Cambridgeshire where they are based and we could ask for it to be transferred to nearer us. If we were to leave it in The Cambs court would the train company send the ticket inspector all that way to give evidence??
The mitigation is that she very rarely travels by train but here in Cardiff you can travel on a junior ticket by BUS up until your 19th birthday, a facility she used daily to get to college.
Daughter is now seeking a job having done quite well at college and it seems terrible that the age of 18 she will have a criminal conviction which she will have to declare having up until now a completely trouble free record.
Any help/advice/suggestions gratefully received.
G - YHM
I have had someone offline suggest to me that their actions are disproportionate - in a sort of let the punishment fit the crime way. If they persist then to ask if they have an appeals procedure (why would they as doubtless they are on a fee perhaps based on convictions??) and that if that doesn't work take up with MP on the basis that it is disproportionate.
The 'crime' is apparently an absolute one so even an absolute discharge would still show up as a conviction on full CRB
I know my daughter has been a numpty but blighting a youngster's life before she has even got started seems wrong.
I have had someone offline suggest to me that their actions are disproportionate - in a sort of let the punishment fit the crime way. If they persist then to ask if they have an appeals procedure (why would they as doubtless they are on a fee perhaps based on convictions??) and that if that doesn't work take up with MP on the basis that it is disproportionate.
The 'crime' is apparently an absolute one so even an absolute discharge would still show up as a conviction on full CRB
I know my daughter has been a numpty but blighting a youngster's life before she has even got started seems wrong.
From google searches TIL come up quite regularly - there appears to be some evidence that they take quite an aggressive stance with people being prosecuted for what seem to be genuine mistakes (some of these by the ticket offices and even in these cases it is STILL the customers fault).
Sounds like they need the equivalent of POPLA and then perhaps trivial and genuine cases may get a fairer outcome (the actual offence being absolute)
Sounds like they need the equivalent of POPLA and then perhaps trivial and genuine cases may get a fairer outcome (the actual offence being absolute)
Hi all - thanks for the comments and advice received so far and in particular Breadvan and AGT.
If people want to have a discussion of freedoms/security etc please would you mind taking it to a new thread. Selfish I know but I'm trying to concentrate on helping my daughter. Sorry difficult to impart tone in text not meant to be 'sniffy'.
Back on subject?
If people want to have a discussion of freedoms/security etc please would you mind taking it to a new thread. Selfish I know but I'm trying to concentrate on helping my daughter. Sorry difficult to impart tone in text not meant to be 'sniffy'.
Back on subject?
My daughter is one of life's 'innocents' in this sadly streetwise world. There was no intent to deceive nor were there any aggravating features except on the part of the inspector who snatched an NI card from her purse. I will not answer any more queries in this regard as there is NO more to the story other than what you have been told.
The motivation here is money - TIL see themselves as crusaders against fare avoidance (and I am not saying action should not be taken against those who deliberately avoid paying). I'm not at this stage aware of how they are funded - whether they get the 'costs' from cases brought or whether they are paid by the train companies they represent I do not know. What you can be sure of is that it is all about money.
It doesn't seem right to me that PRIVATE companies can bring about a CRIMINAL conviction against an individual for which their is no possibility of a 'not guilty' verdict - the offence being absolute (strict liability).
The motivation here is money - TIL see themselves as crusaders against fare avoidance (and I am not saying action should not be taken against those who deliberately avoid paying). I'm not at this stage aware of how they are funded - whether they get the 'costs' from cases brought or whether they are paid by the train companies they represent I do not know. What you can be sure of is that it is all about money.
It doesn't seem right to me that PRIVATE companies can bring about a CRIMINAL conviction against an individual for which their is no possibility of a 'not guilty' verdict - the offence being absolute (strict liability).
fuzzypicture said:
So, if I buy 4 tickets for my Wife and kids online, but I don't travel with them, their tickets are invalid? That cant be right surely?
Isn't that just appalling so not only does a private company have the power to give you a criminal conviction without the Police or CPS being involved but they can do so on some jumped probably internal rule they have made up.Next my insurance won't be valid next time I am stopped by the Police unless I have the credit card or DD slip that I paid with, with me at the time. It's time these jumped up twerps were stopped!
Edit: just realised I haven't used the word 'twerp' for years - had forgotten what a great word it is, so again Twerp!
mph1977 said:
Sorry a just turned 18 year old should have been paying full price on public transport ,unless covered by a concessionary scheme with a pass / prof of eligibility photo card for the past 2 years ...
WRONG! Public Transport includes buses as far as I am aware and on Cardiff Bus you pay a junior fare up until your 19th birthday. Look it up if you don't believe me.Why a just turned 18 year old (who has probably been on a train a half dozen times in her life and most of those when she was a kiddie travelling with adults) would 'know' that the rules are different on a train I can't comprehend.
You are obviously one of those wonders of this world who have never made an innocent mistake in your life.
Edited by elanfan on Saturday 10th August 18:27
Pontoneer said:
I similarly have a friend who uses the trains semi regularly .
He sometimes boards at a small countryside station which is just a platform without a ticket office or machine and goes one or two stops along the line . He ALWAYS buys a ticket from the conductor on the train when he comes along , but occasionally reaches his destination before the conductor reaches his carriage , and just gets off at another unmanned station without any facilities to buy tickets .
He would always wish , and prefer , to pay for his travel , but the rail operator does not always provide this facility nor ask for payment .
Does this make him a criminal ?
]
Unfortunately it does -as according to the rules it is your responsibility to buy a ticket. Apparently even on a crowded train he would be expected to guess which end of the train the conductor was and barge his way past everyone.He sometimes boards at a small countryside station which is just a platform without a ticket office or machine and goes one or two stops along the line . He ALWAYS buys a ticket from the conductor on the train when he comes along , but occasionally reaches his destination before the conductor reaches his carriage , and just gets off at another unmanned station without any facilities to buy tickets .
He would always wish , and prefer , to pay for his travel , but the rail operator does not always provide this facility nor ask for payment .
Does this make him a criminal ?
]
It's the train companies that need to be criminalised.
I have recently found out that Revenue Protection Inspectors are directly employed by TIL - now isn't that interesting. There is obviously a direct correlation between them issuing Prosecution notices and/or Penalty fares and the income of TIL.
Judge,Jury and Bank Cashiers! This isn't justice - its a licence to print money.
Judge,Jury and Bank Cashiers! This isn't justice - its a licence to print money.
Tonker - you were lucky. Had it been one of the RPI Taliban then under strict liability and the fact you should have sought out a ticket BEFORE travelling (and I know you could not have forseen etc) then technically they could have prosecuted you.
So in chav speak: you is like a criminal, innit!
Mind you I'd pay to see the letterheaded reply!!
So in chav speak: you is like a criminal, innit!
Mind you I'd pay to see the letterheaded reply!!
OP here with a minor update on the original subject:
TIL were written/replied to in August and it will be 7 weeks tomorrow and still haven't even had it acknowledged as yet. Quite how they think they can leave people worrying for this long is beyond my understanding. Perhaps they are too busy making a fortune out of the unfortunates.
TIL were written/replied to in August and it will be 7 weeks tomorrow and still haven't even had it acknowledged as yet. Quite how they think they can leave people worrying for this long is beyond my understanding. Perhaps they are too busy making a fortune out of the unfortunates.
OP update.
Well it seems that this thread got derailed (haha) from the original subject though has rightly highlighted a lot of other problems with the various rail companies. Anyhow this is how things panned out...
today marks 6 months and 1 day since the 'offence' (so beyond the 6 month prosecution threshold) and despite advice to leave it lie (sorry Breadvan) I just had to find out what the score was so I rang TIL. They wouldn't speak to me so I had to get my daughter on the phone to ID herself to them. They told my daughter her case had been 'withdrawn' through her I asked why we hadn't heard anything and they replied they don't let us know!!! How mad and arrogant is that!! My daughter got flustered and hung up.
I just hope these barstewards get their comeuppnce and what is clearly unfair legislation gets repealed. I will be letting my MP know the update but ask that he continue to pursue the matter.
Well it seems that this thread got derailed (haha) from the original subject though has rightly highlighted a lot of other problems with the various rail companies. Anyhow this is how things panned out...
today marks 6 months and 1 day since the 'offence' (so beyond the 6 month prosecution threshold) and despite advice to leave it lie (sorry Breadvan) I just had to find out what the score was so I rang TIL. They wouldn't speak to me so I had to get my daughter on the phone to ID herself to them. They told my daughter her case had been 'withdrawn' through her I asked why we hadn't heard anything and they replied they don't let us know!!! How mad and arrogant is that!! My daughter got flustered and hung up.
I just hope these barstewards get their comeuppnce and what is clearly unfair legislation gets repealed. I will be letting my MP know the update but ask that he continue to pursue the matter.
Of course there won't be any apologies as obviously she was guilty and just got away with it, don't cha know! The haters will hate whatever. Not going to let it worry me one iota.
As for daughter dear, she is 4 months into a job in my local Sainsburys (pending an eventual career working with animals) and doing OK (apart from the attentions of one psycho b
h bullying supervisor). She is taking driving lessons on the proceeds of the job and clearing the shelves of ebay on a buying spree with her new found 'wealth' and also happy with the 7 month ongoing boyfriend.
Me, I'm pleased she hasn't a conviction on her record and that my MP continues to follow up TIl's behaviour with an eventual hope the law will be repealed.
On this last subject - it appears that not enough people are complaining to their MP's about this. If others here have suffered from this injustice please take it up with your own MP but ask them to liaise with mine (Jonathan Evans - Cardiff North) as he is already on the case.
As for daughter dear, she is 4 months into a job in my local Sainsburys (pending an eventual career working with animals) and doing OK (apart from the attentions of one psycho b
h bullying supervisor). She is taking driving lessons on the proceeds of the job and clearing the shelves of ebay on a buying spree with her new found 'wealth' and also happy with the 7 month ongoing boyfriend.Me, I'm pleased she hasn't a conviction on her record and that my MP continues to follow up TIl's behaviour with an eventual hope the law will be repealed.
On this last subject - it appears that not enough people are complaining to their MP's about this. If others here have suffered from this injustice please take it up with your own MP but ask them to liaise with mine (Jonathan Evans - Cardiff North) as he is already on the case.
Edited by elanfan on Thursday 16th January 12:13
Negative Creep said:
Out of interest how would you like the law regarding this to be changed?
Sorry didn't notice your reply until today.In my view there needs to be a law to deal with fare dodgers and not with innocent mistakes. The law could stand but make it that it can be fought in court and not a fait accompli as it currently stands - read the thread if you don't understand how unfair things are at the moment. Also would like it that a Private Company should not be able to bring about CRIMINAL convictions i.e it would need to go via CPS (though they'd need to open a whole new office just to deal with the cases that TIL bring forward).
Please pester your MP's and ask them to liaise with Jonathan Evans MP for Cardiff North
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