RE: TVR to launch 600bhp supercar
Discussion
The speed six engine was not the downfall of tvr, the accountant who decided it would be a better idea to order the slighly cheaper finger followers and cams etc from somewhere else, leading to major problems with re-builds, is more likely the cause of the bad press that hit tvr.
Edited by hollowpockets on Friday 17th November 11:11
hollowpockets said:
The speed six engine was not the downfall of tvr, the accountant who decided it would be a better idea to order the slighly cheaper finger followers and cams etc from somewhere else, leading to major problems with re-builds, is more likely the cause of the bad press that hit tvr.
Edited by hollowpockets on Friday 17th November 11:11
Nail and head
The Speed Six is a cracking engine when it is built properly, to the correct spec and with the correct materials. What it does above 4k rpm makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up everytime you push it. It deserves to stand comparison with the best engines in the world.
Engines have to suit cars. Ppl ask for a v8 in a Sagaris, but it would be the wrong engine choice. Contrary to popular perception, the Sagaris is not a thug, it is not a hooligan car, it is actually quite delicate. It is much more of a scalpel than a Claymore hacking blade. Consequently the S6 suits that nature perfectly. A brutish thuggish V8 wouldnt.
Now, that *doesnt* negate a brutish, thuggish v8 roadster requirement, I happen to think one very much exists. I know one thing though, that £45k Marcos sure as hell isnt it.
Engines have to suit cars. Ppl ask for a v8 in a Sagaris, but it would be the wrong engine choice. Contrary to popular perception, the Sagaris is not a thug, it is not a hooligan car, it is actually quite delicate. It is much more of a scalpel than a Claymore hacking blade. Consequently the S6 suits that nature perfectly. A brutish thuggish V8 wouldnt.
Now, that *doesnt* negate a brutish, thuggish v8 roadster requirement, I happen to think one very much exists. I know one thing though, that £45k Marcos sure as hell isnt it.
bennno said:
couldnt agree less with XTR and Pits.
if you think 35k market is competitive then just try the 60k market.
997, V8 Vantage, Used F355 Spider, Used F360, 996TT, BMW M5, Forthcoming M3, RS4
bennno
I don't think you can compare new and used markets as your have. I think you have raised the main point though - all sections of the market are competitive and much more so than the TVR glory period. That is why it is questionable that it can survive in any section but I think that it's best chance is in teh mid priced discount supercar space.
Why do you think Marcos are pitching where they are, Noble are trying to move up market, Ultima won't build you a car for less than £70k, even Morgan trying to push their Aero8 etc etc - they can't make money competing with the mainstream volume players!!!
There is simply no chance for a cottage car industry in the entry level sports car market. THe product quality and choice has gone through the roof and the investment in technology and volumes are huge barriers. There was no competition when the Griff was lanched. It's also a different tye of customer now. Normally younger, less money and looking for an exciting but reliable daily motor.
For different reasons TVR does not have the ability to compete in the £75K plus market. There is just to much badge snobbery and therefore pedegree required.
It's space is specialist performance cars with an individual and unique design in low volume to non completely price sensitive customers. It is the customer that can afford a 997 but does not want it. Could possible stretch to a £100k car but cannot justify it or does not want to 'flaunt it'. They care that the car is largely British, bespoke, individual and performs. They will put up with alot to get this and even pay more than is probably rational so long as they don't lose loads in depreciation or it becomes a frustration by going wrong more often than it is working. This market is not large, never will be. It is also not massively price sensitive within sensible limits. Of course it needs to be aspirational but also realistic. There are plenty of people that can afford the cars and the person who is stretching to buy a top end £30 - £35k Z4 with a heavy loan is not going to be the mainstay customer for a new TVR. They can aspire to the car and then buy the cars 2nd hand
Marcos will get the product right and happily sell a couple of hundred each year off the minimum cost base they can manage. They are the model that TVR should have moved to. The only downside is I don't think they yet have teh design flare that TVR have exhibited and the name has to shed itself of the bad marcos kit cars of the past. From this perspective I think teh name harms rather than helps Marcos but they definitely have the correct business model. If their rich American owner bought the TVR badge for a song and stuck it on his cars teh phone would not stop ringing at £50k, £60k or £70k
Caterhams are track specials - a different market as wth most of the many kit cars.
XTR2Turbo said:
I think you have raised the main point though - all sections of the market are competitive and much more so than the TVR glory period.
Absolutely, and a point I tried to make earlier (or in another thread - forget which).
The S, Griffith and Chimaera were such a success because there was simply nothing else in that price / performance bracket at the time. All the competition were eiher much more expensive for the same performance or much inferior performance for the same price.
Those days are gone now, so TVR have lost their niche and have to compete head-on with their competition. And they can't.
A stupid question maybe but:
Why couldn't they re-release something like maybe a Griff or a Cerb but with a smaller engine, as a more-mass produced lower cost alternative, possibly a 2.5 or 3.5 litre type engine? Most of the design work is history and so it shouldn't be too difficult or costly to produce - assuming someone can now produce TVRs.
Volume might then make the Sagaris etc still available higher up the range.
Right now, I don't see many people spending higher prices on a car where the future of the marque is in doubt, unless as a collectors piece.
Why couldn't they re-release something like maybe a Griff or a Cerb but with a smaller engine, as a more-mass produced lower cost alternative, possibly a 2.5 or 3.5 litre type engine? Most of the design work is history and so it shouldn't be too difficult or costly to produce - assuming someone can now produce TVRs.
Volume might then make the Sagaris etc still available higher up the range.
Right now, I don't see many people spending higher prices on a car where the future of the marque is in doubt, unless as a collectors piece.
Davel said:
A stupid question maybe but:
Why couldn't they re-release something like maybe a Griff or a Cerb but with a smaller engine, as a more-mass produced lower cost alternative, possibly a 2.5 or 3.5 litre type engine? Most of the design work is history and so it shouldn't be too difficult or costly to produce - assuming someone can now produce TVRs.
Volume might then make the Sagaris etc still available higher up the range.
Right now, I don't see many people spending higher prices on a car where the future of the marque is in doubt, unless as a collectors piece.
Why couldn't they re-release something like maybe a Griff or a Cerb but with a smaller engine, as a more-mass produced lower cost alternative, possibly a 2.5 or 3.5 litre type engine? Most of the design work is history and so it shouldn't be too difficult or costly to produce - assuming someone can now produce TVRs.
Volume might then make the Sagaris etc still available higher up the range.
Right now, I don't see many people spending higher prices on a car where the future of the marque is in doubt, unless as a collectors piece.
I don't think people would buy a cerbera for a smaller engine. The car is not the easiest to drive, and without that power, I doubt you would get many putting up with it.
JonRB said:
Davel said:
Why couldn't they re-release something like maybe a Griff or a Cerb but with a smaller engine
Why not re-release the Griffith and/or Chimaera with an LSx engine? I'd buy that.
If they don't forget to put in a bit of rollover- and side impact protection this time, that could actually be a goer. Neither basic shape has dated at all - in fact, each of them still shows Marcos (and Wiessman) the way home aesthetically IMO.
900T-R said:
JonRB said:
Davel said:
Why couldn't they re-release something like maybe a Griff or a Cerb but with a smaller engine
Why not re-release the Griffith and/or Chimaera with an LSx engine? I'd buy that.
If they don't forget to put in a bit of rollover- and side impact protection this time, that could actually be a goer. Neither basic shape has dated at all - in fact, each of them still shows Marcos (and Wiessman) the way home aesthetically IMO.
My arse shows the Wiessman up for aethestically pleasing designs.
Davel said:
A stupid question maybe but:
Why couldn't they re-release something like maybe a Griff or a Cerb but with a smaller engine, as a more-mass produced lower cost alternative, possibly a 2.5 or 3.5 litre type engine? Most of the design work is history and so it shouldn't be too difficult or costly to produce - assuming someone can now produce TVRs.
...
This was discussed quite a bit many months ago and it was felt that costs couldn't be reduced, or not by much if any as the way the cars are (oops were Why couldn't they re-release something like maybe a Griff or a Cerb but with a smaller engine, as a more-mass produced lower cost alternative, possibly a 2.5 or 3.5 litre type engine? Most of the design work is history and so it shouldn't be too difficult or costly to produce - assuming someone can now produce TVRs.
...
) made. They could have changed the Tam/T350 chassis for extra width, stick a cheap LS1 engine in (same bhp and cheaper to buy in than SP6) and see if there was any demand for such cars at the same price as SP6!! If there was, make more, if not, so what. The whole exercise would not have cost much either
Producing cars that hold value is more important than cheaper cars - it works for Porsche 
Gassing Station | General TVR Stuff & Gossip | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff