What to replace a TVR Chimaera 500 with?
Discussion
Belle427 said:
Maybe something like a Carrera 4S would suit you, lovely car, not too ott power wise and grip to give you confidence.
You might be right but found many of the German options mainly a little too sterile so a step in the right direction maybe too far. I had a 987 Boxster S and really enjoyed it but as a 4th kind of car it wasn't special enough or enough of an event. A perfectly good car just maybe just a smidge too much of a daily kind of drive to be what I was looking for. I drove a 911 Carerra 2S on track some years back and loved it but I just hate the 996 interiors. A 997 could work but was hoping to get away from the German options to something a bit different.Don't laugh but a Mustang is fairly high up the list at the moment.
Indeed....first world problems! Yes, the Mustang of course would be a V8 
I think I would have a 997 911 or a Boxster or something like that if it did more daily duties but I have the XJL for that.
Like you the potential engine issues worry a little on the Porsche's but I guess are often over dramatised. Also many have had the IMS bearing replaced/upgraded now or would have had issues if they were going to fail. Some merit in buying an older car with some miles in this regard.
I would look at a 996 911 Turbo but just not sure I could live with that interior. The 997 or Boxster 987 was a step on. I would also prefer a Cayman to a Boxster as not a fan of convertible's per se.
I think I would have a 997 911 or a Boxster or something like that if it did more daily duties but I have the XJL for that.
Like you the potential engine issues worry a little on the Porsche's but I guess are often over dramatised. Also many have had the IMS bearing replaced/upgraded now or would have had issues if they were going to fail. Some merit in buying an older car with some miles in this regard.
I would look at a 996 911 Turbo but just not sure I could live with that interior. The 997 or Boxster 987 was a step on. I would also prefer a Cayman to a Boxster as not a fan of convertible's per se.
Belle427 said:
I've not seen the 996 interiors close up, this caught my eye, a little expensive and the description hurts my eyes but nice.
https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/10747793?c...
Looks nice and I'm a sucker for a dark blue metallic. I guess my other detraction from a 911 Turbo is I am not a fan of turbo's per se. Much prefer an N/A or S/C motor. I find all that boom and bust of most non-modern turbo's of no power then all loads of power a little tiresome.https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/10747793?c...
Some of course love the thrill of a turbo motor coming on boost and the shove it gives. Much like the old Maserati 3200 twin turbo's. Which is why I preferred and bought my 4200. Cracking powerplant that F136. Love it.
David Beer said:
Mmmmm....very nice. Really not helping though 
I am trying to spend upto £25k not £50k LOLMaybe they can do a 0% PCP deal for 3 years and I'll worry about the rest in 3 years!
David Beer said:
They certainly did, but I think not now, but Bristol street do.
It’s got be worth a call to them.
Funny you should say that as found myself looking at these on the Bristol Street site last night!It’s got be worth a call to them.
That Mach 1 looks like a little cracker. Trouble is I'm into £50k then which opens a whole new door of other options as well
An added complication seems to be the stupid car tax levies that make buying a new Mustang an expensive option when added So £2175 first year car tax! Then an additional £325 per year for year 2-5 for it being over £40k new price. It is hardly encouraging people to boost the economy.
It is all well and good trying to incentivise people to buy a new car and one with better green properties it takes. However what if I don't want to buy one of those? I won't. I will also not be buying a new Mustang as refuse to pay an additional £2175 in additional car tax first year.
Also there is zero no consideration of mileage/use. I did 250 miles in my 4200 last year. It was SORN for about 9-10 months of that so there was no real additional car tax revenue gained actually less than if you had charged a reasonable amount for 12 months. Would I have driven the 4200 more? Not likely and if I did it would have been in that rather than the XJL as I can only drive one car at a time.
Also I don't do many miles any more so a new Mustang for me in a year might do 2000-2500 miles maybe. So a car that pollutes half as much that does twice the miles is the same and if does more than twice the miles it is worse. However it pays less cart tax. That doesn't make sense at all.
I have said this for years that all car tax should be on fuel. The more miles and fuel you burn the more you pay in tax. The more efficient the car the less you will pay. It is the perfect leveler and fair for all. You could also get rid of half the DVLA as you won't need them so in nett terms revenues from car tax will increase. Win win all round
So in a time of economic turmoil I would be quite prepared to go out and spend some of my hard earned on a new car to boost the economy. Except I won't due to stupid car tax levies. Makes perfect sense....not!
It is all well and good trying to incentivise people to buy a new car and one with better green properties it takes. However what if I don't want to buy one of those? I won't. I will also not be buying a new Mustang as refuse to pay an additional £2175 in additional car tax first year.
Also there is zero no consideration of mileage/use. I did 250 miles in my 4200 last year. It was SORN for about 9-10 months of that so there was no real additional car tax revenue gained actually less than if you had charged a reasonable amount for 12 months. Would I have driven the 4200 more? Not likely and if I did it would have been in that rather than the XJL as I can only drive one car at a time.
Also I don't do many miles any more so a new Mustang for me in a year might do 2000-2500 miles maybe. So a car that pollutes half as much that does twice the miles is the same and if does more than twice the miles it is worse. However it pays less cart tax. That doesn't make sense at all.
I have said this for years that all car tax should be on fuel. The more miles and fuel you burn the more you pay in tax. The more efficient the car the less you will pay. It is the perfect leveler and fair for all. You could also get rid of half the DVLA as you won't need them so in nett terms revenues from car tax will increase. Win win all round
So in a time of economic turmoil I would be quite prepared to go out and spend some of my hard earned on a new car to boost the economy. Except I won't due to stupid car tax levies. Makes perfect sense....not!
One thing that has come to light to create further anomalies with regards to the car tax position is mods. If you keep the engine and cc the same but map or modify the car I am guessing there will be increased CO2. You can tell your insurer and that is fine but you wouldn't pay any more car tax as there is not a mechanism to deal with these scenarios on the current car tax system.
So for example some of these new 4 pot turbo hot hatches can start at say 200bhp and end up modified to 400bhp so surely this would increase the CO2 emissions dramatically? However there would be no increased tax levy.
Also if this was a company car then the BIK should increase but I suspect it won't. Just another little hidden anomaly there. Might need explore this anomaly or black whole further.
So for example my Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is zero emissions on paper, zero car tax, zero ULEZ and zero congestion charge. It has a 2.4 petrol 4 cylinder ICE that you could modify but pay none of the stuff you would pay it if were stock. Mmmmm......maybe add a turbo or supercharger to that 2.4 petrol ICE
So for example some of these new 4 pot turbo hot hatches can start at say 200bhp and end up modified to 400bhp so surely this would increase the CO2 emissions dramatically? However there would be no increased tax levy.
Also if this was a company car then the BIK should increase but I suspect it won't. Just another little hidden anomaly there. Might need explore this anomaly or black whole further.
So for example my Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is zero emissions on paper, zero car tax, zero ULEZ and zero congestion charge. It has a 2.4 petrol 4 cylinder ICE that you could modify but pay none of the stuff you would pay it if were stock. Mmmmm......maybe add a turbo or supercharger to that 2.4 petrol ICE
Belle427 said:
I fancy a change maybe next year and will probably look at the Cayman S.
I’ve always fancied a Boxster but don’t feel the need for a rag top anymore.
Snap I have no desire for a soft top really. I didn't pick the Chimaera for it being a soft top and in fact have never driven with full top down. I like the idea of the Targa though. I would and am certainly considering a Cayman S. Also.....don't laugh....an MX5 RF is still in the list of possibles.I’ve always fancied a Boxster but don’t feel the need for a rag top anymore.
Zeb74 said:
In France, if you dare buy a Mustang you have an additional tax of 20k euros!! This is almost 50% of the price. But, in 2021, it will raise to 40k and in 2022 to 50k, more than the price of car... This is totally stupid.
And I totally agree with you about having taxes on the fuel, a Mustang drove 2000 miles per year is greener than a Fiesta doing 20k miles per year.
Wow, didn't know that. it is crazy. The thing is for someone who likes there cars you can't convince them by tax or otherwise to buy something they don't want. My pockets aren't deep enough to pay silly levies and contradictory rules that make zero sense. I also am not going to buy a 1.0 Eco Fiesta instead of my TVR. Neither side is winning.And I totally agree with you about having taxes on the fuel, a Mustang drove 2000 miles per year is greener than a Fiesta doing 20k miles per year.
I even have an issue paying more car tax for an April 2006 car over a pre-23rd March 2006 car but I know they need to draw a line in the sand at some point. I have a dedicated bank account just for monthly DD car tax! That seems silly to me. I can;t tax all the cars and can only drive one at a time so play silly games taxing one or two a month that I will use that month and the rest get SORN. That seems nuts to me but I have no choice but to do it this way.
Similarly I couldn't justify paying car tax of £2175 for the first year on a new Mustang. Or even the additional £310 per year over £40k car tax. When I bought my wife's 3 year Discovery Sport I had to find one that was old enough not to pay the extra £310 per year car tax but also one new enough to be the new 2.0 Ingenium engine. Had an 18 month window of cars and to find an HSE Luxury with the spec I wanted was even harder. Got there in the end!
Just ditch it all and put the tax on fuel.....it is really simple.
s3dave said:
I have a Sagaris and my wife has a Cayman S (gen 1). I would never change the Sagaris, however if I want a daily car that would do long distance GT cruising it’s defiantly the Cayman; same era as the Sagaris but much more sophisticated and comfortable. Engine is excellent but not quite so much oomph. Handling good, but not certainly not so precise in the dry; in the wet I would not take either but if I had to it would be the Cayman.
Other thing to consider is depreciation, while I expect in a few years’ time Cayman’s will start to appreciate, but at the moment prices are still falling. TVRs retain their value and many are appreciating.
In Street cred there is no comparison, only a couple of weeks ago I went to an event with a friend with a 718 (probable both cars of the same value), they parked him around the back and me at the front next to a Lambo!
So if you want to be boring and have a car that that does everything well, have a Cayman, if you want a hobby that give you loads of fun and satisfaction, that stands out from the crowd get a TVR. My suggestion would be get a T350, probably the must undervalued car in the TVR range at the moment.
I agree with you on everything you say there. The Cayman I am sure is great but like many most modern sports cars is too daily like for me. Great to be an only car or a 2nd car but (and I know it sounds silly but many on here will be the same!) I am looking for a 4th/5th car!Other thing to consider is depreciation, while I expect in a few years’ time Cayman’s will start to appreciate, but at the moment prices are still falling. TVRs retain their value and many are appreciating.
In Street cred there is no comparison, only a couple of weeks ago I went to an event with a friend with a 718 (probable both cars of the same value), they parked him around the back and me at the front next to a Lambo!
So if you want to be boring and have a car that that does everything well, have a Cayman, if you want a hobby that give you loads of fun and satisfaction, that stands out from the crowd get a TVR. My suggestion would be get a T350, probably the must undervalued car in the TVR range at the moment.
I am sure a later T car would suit me well and I may well look at that. I guess my issue with this is potential reliability and running costs. You can buy a good one and be lucky but you can also be unlucky and it start to hurt. I guess like all things in life really so no different. I just haven't got the cash to keep shedding thousands on repairs/maintenance but I guess this is ofset by low or now depreciation. Issue is I always/mainly buy cars that are low or no depreciation anyway so always have an eye on this.
My 4200 is a very late 2007 car bought from the first owner at 11k miles and has done £15k miles now after my 4 years I've owned. Nothing goes wrong and/or wears out as I don't drive it enough. It also is depreciation free and doesn't cost much to keep. Earlier, lesser, high miles cars can mean some big bills so buying the best I could find helped me. However it was £25k to buy at the time and would still sell for that now.
The hard thing for me to get over is current buy in prices on later T cars as many are not much lower than their new price and some more. You could say they are better cars than they came out of the factory of course. However when you can buy a 4-5 year old Mustang for £25k and a new one at less than £50k that seems better value to me. I do have an issue with a 5 year old Mustang at £25k though as that would mean residuals are actually very good. A new one with a discount can be had for £45k and less. With a good PCP or finance deal it can be even better 'real' value.
I'm going to take my time and maybe wait until impending economic doom next year as if it bites as much as I fear there might be some bargains out there next year.
The Mustang does look a good option. It is weird as I am nearly there with the Chimaera 500 just not quite hitting my spot. The recipe is spot on. Two seats, V8, manual, rear wheels drive, not too big or heavy. There isn't much out there that fits the same criteria.
Generally everything small or two seat has no V8 and many 4 pots like MX5's, the Alpine and the like. Just always appreciate a great noise.
I think a later T Car could work but I just can't my mind to want to pay the level of money they are.
Generally everything small or two seat has no V8 and many 4 pots like MX5's, the Alpine and the like. Just always appreciate a great noise.
I think a later T Car could work but I just can't my mind to want to pay the level of money they are.
swisstoni said:
I’m sort of struggling with what exactly you are expecting from this car. It’s a TVR. And you’ve had them in the past.
It’s not a crime to decide you are bored with something and just want a change.
I just felt more comfortable and better suited to the 400's before I think. The 500 is a big noticeable jump with much more lower torque so I feel the 400 is a better fast road car to enjoy most of the time. I've not driven a 450 but suspect it might a good drive too.It’s not a crime to decide you are bored with something and just want a change.
Don't think I'm bored with a TVR but just looking for something I haven't found yet.
Classic Chim said:
When you move away from power willy waving graphs it’s interesting how the 450 sits right between the 400 and 500 options and how it did address some of the lower torque issues the 500 can display if tuned to buggery lol.
In everyday conditions the way it dollops a lot of torque in around 2000 revs and onwards is to most a joy but it can come with side effects when all you want to do is cruise along smoothly around town. It just takes a bit more management from the driver but when I compare my graph against a decent 500 it has very slightly less torque low down but does even out from around 3000 revs and then is just as fast, again it looses out over 5000 revs with the standard 38 mm trumpets Asper RangeRover , but at lower revs this narrower inlet porting adds a bit of needed air speed so though it has less torque it accelerates just as fast if you stab the throttle.
If you want 95% of the power and a more manageable car try a 450 that’s properly sorted.
I’m pretty sure it was John Eales and Tvr development of the 500 engine that made RR take notice and produced the 450 probably for the reasons I mention. The 4.0 4.2 4.3 and early 450 all had influence on the later RR 450 engine as fitted in many Chimaera after 95. Serpentine etc.
Biggest standard valves and decent porting on the heads but not tuned as such. Later 450 heads are the ones to have they say. Lovely things standard from RR other than the Cam change and as mine shows, with a decent ecu and a tiny engine rebuild lol the 450 is a gem. it’s not really any slower than the 500 in all reality unless the 500 is tuned or in really good nick. They just dollop a lot of power in early which is ace if you like thst sort of thing.
If an engine spins upto the limiter really fast because it’s nicely balanced it’s gaining power in its own right. Friction which can be felt more in a 500 engine at higher revs saps power. A properly built 500 to modern standards is proper quick though : scratchchin:
Agreed Alun. I looked at and drove Nick Simpson's supercharged GEMS 450 Chimaera and really liked the way it drove. I felt it lost a bit of its TVR ness at the time and the RV8 sound/character I thought I wanted. I saw the car as it was a little rough round the edges and not fully prep'd for sale if you like so maybe that took a smidge of the gloss off. Just couldn't make the numbers work for me at the time and had only just bought my 500 so timing wasn't ideal. It is still available though but it is a car I would need to keep as won't be easy to sell to the mass or mainstream market. In retrospect it drove well and was a decent car. Nick has clearly looked after it but a lack of documented service history is and clearly would be a problem for most. Rightly or wrongly of course.In everyday conditions the way it dollops a lot of torque in around 2000 revs and onwards is to most a joy but it can come with side effects when all you want to do is cruise along smoothly around town. It just takes a bit more management from the driver but when I compare my graph against a decent 500 it has very slightly less torque low down but does even out from around 3000 revs and then is just as fast, again it looses out over 5000 revs with the standard 38 mm trumpets Asper RangeRover , but at lower revs this narrower inlet porting adds a bit of needed air speed so though it has less torque it accelerates just as fast if you stab the throttle.
If you want 95% of the power and a more manageable car try a 450 that’s properly sorted.
I’m pretty sure it was John Eales and Tvr development of the 500 engine that made RR take notice and produced the 450 probably for the reasons I mention. The 4.0 4.2 4.3 and early 450 all had influence on the later RR 450 engine as fitted in many Chimaera after 95. Serpentine etc.
Biggest standard valves and decent porting on the heads but not tuned as such. Later 450 heads are the ones to have they say. Lovely things
standard from RR other than the Cam change and as mine shows, with a decent ecu and a tiny engine rebuild lol the 450 is a gem. it’s not really any slower than the 500 in all reality unless the 500 is tuned or in really good nick. They just dollop a lot of power in early which is ace if you like thst sort of thing. If an engine spins upto the limiter really fast because it’s nicely balanced it’s gaining power in its own right. Friction which can be felt more in a 500 engine at higher revs saps power. A properly built 500 to modern standards is proper quick though : scratchchin:
The V8 Vantage is actually the closest I have come to what I'm looking for. I just needed to sell mile to give me some trading cash to play with on the markets and knew I would have likely needed another £5k to keep it another year or so therefore I bailed. I would certainly buy another although they aren't a cheap option to keep of course.
Unusually for me I'm going to take my time and not rush into anything. Seems like I need to sample a few options to understand more what I want.
phazed said:
Dean. I don't think you're perfect car has been made.
Has your 500 got slightly too much torque or power? My thoughts are you don't like it because of the colour red, not everyone's cup of tea I agree, certainly not my favourite on a chim.
If I was in your shoes with your thoughts I would probably feel the same, you keep looking and there isn't much out there at all!
Regarding the 500, I have never thought these as particularly powerful cars. Yes, they are quite torquey but soon run out of puff.
The 400 feels quite flat yet revy and does the V8 job
A 4.5/4.6 is a good compromise. These can be tuned to around 300+ BHP but if you think a 500 is too powerful then I would stick with a standard car. Apart from that, there really isn't any other cars that will give you the raw feel and sound with a V8.
A V8 chim/griff is a rare beast, not in numbers, there isn't any thing else which does the job so well. It can cruise, go reasonably quickly round the twisties, does roof of motoring, basic simple design, easy and cheap to fix, comfortable and lots of boot space. Where can you find that combination?
Unless you stray from that formula there isn't anything else out there.
When I left the TVR world I went in my opinion to the next best thing, a Boxster S .
It hasn't got a V8 but has pretty much everything else covered, quicker in real terms, handles better, is safer, more comfortable and can be driven around at dawdling speeds without any drama.
I know you are not bothered about the soft top so if I was you I would look out for a rare TVR cerbera that has been professionally converted with a standard LS engine. This will keep you TVR, look fantastic, rare on the road, be reasonably economical, reliable and have plenty of power which you don't have to use all the time.
Just my tuppence worth.
Thanks very much for your 2p's worth Peter much appreciated. I do agree that the perfect car maybe hasn't been made and I suspect many others have felt the same. It is probably why Nick SImpson is creating his own build and many others have done the same. I can see of course it make zero financial sense but can also see why people do it.Has your 500 got slightly too much torque or power? My thoughts are you don't like it because of the colour red, not everyone's cup of tea I agree, certainly not my favourite on a chim.
If I was in your shoes with your thoughts I would probably feel the same, you keep looking and there isn't much out there at all!
Regarding the 500, I have never thought these as particularly powerful cars. Yes, they are quite torquey but soon run out of puff.
The 400 feels quite flat yet revy and does the V8 job
A 4.5/4.6 is a good compromise. These can be tuned to around 300+ BHP but if you think a 500 is too powerful then I would stick with a standard car. Apart from that, there really isn't any other cars that will give you the raw feel and sound with a V8.
A V8 chim/griff is a rare beast, not in numbers, there isn't any thing else which does the job so well. It can cruise, go reasonably quickly round the twisties, does roof of motoring, basic simple design, easy and cheap to fix, comfortable and lots of boot space. Where can you find that combination?
Unless you stray from that formula there isn't anything else out there.
When I left the TVR world I went in my opinion to the next best thing, a Boxster S .
It hasn't got a V8 but has pretty much everything else covered, quicker in real terms, handles better, is safer, more comfortable and can be driven around at dawdling speeds without any drama.
I know you are not bothered about the soft top so if I was you I would look out for a rare TVR cerbera that has been professionally converted with a standard LS engine. This will keep you TVR, look fantastic, rare on the road, be reasonably economical, reliable and have plenty of power which you don't have to use all the time.
Just my tuppence worth.
It seems weird that there isn't much in that really hits the spot but I guess why would there be in reality. It is a pretty niche and a low volume requirement I guess.
A Cerbera is certainly a model I like and prefer a Speed Six style front end also not minding the Speed Six engine. I don't feel the V8 so much in the Cerbera mainly on the noise front. That is why Ross Beaton's yellow Cerbera SP6 appealed but I can't get the numbers to work for me. Maybe an LS Cerbera would indeed be a good option but going to be rare to find unless I did something myself. The was a 4.7 F136 Maserati engined Cerbera I discussed with the creator/owner about but he was looking for around £50k or something which really didn't make much sense to me.
I'm in no rush so will see what crops up keeping my eyes and ears open.
Podie said:
Ah, hadn't realised you'd already done it - sorry.
No need for apologies. I could heartily recommend a V8 Vantage to anyone looking. I might get into one again at some point in the future but not at the moment. Always felt if I got into another AM at some point it would need to be a V12. I need to scratch that V12 itch at some point!Gassing Station | General TVR Stuff & Gossip | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff