Emerald ECU - TPS or MAP sensor..?

[domV8]

I am replacing the Lucas 14CUX and dizzy setup in the Chimaera with the Emerald K3 ecu, and have a choice of mapping by TPS or MAP sensor.

In my experience (Rover Tomcat T16 turbo uses MAP sensor), the MAP sensor is a very reliable system - measuring what is actually going on in the plenum, rather than taking TPS readings and making calculations based on what should be going on.

A MAP sensor will provide correct readings accounting for things like air leaks etc, whereas a TPS would not - as I understand it.

So my question is - what is the best way to get it mapped? Is there something I am missing out, some benefits of the TPS that would tip it in it's favour..?

Can you use the TPS to complement a MAP sensor, or is it a case of either/or...?

It is difficult for me to speak to the garage as my work is going crazy at the moment, and I don't have time to speak to the garage - and the garage is obviously unavailable after work hours...

What are your thoughts guy...? What do you think is the best way to go..?

All replies appreciated,


Dom

[450Nick]

It's either or, but use tps. Better response. Run adaptive and it will also self tune within your parameters. If you get an air leak though you want to fix the air leak, not try to run a sensor that mask problems..

[Pupp]

Perceived wisdom seems to be that TPS is the easier load reference to get decent results from but there is the ability to trim from MAP inputs too with TPS as the primary.... did post a thread on this recently as I'm interested in playing with this feature to try and mask a low load glitch I've got, but didn't get much of a response so guess no-one bothers.... although a different system, may be worth a poke around on the Megasquirt sites and Blatchat, as there is info out there. Post up what you learn

[dnb]

It depends on how crazy the cam choice is going to be.

If you go for something as wild as they come (eg M404) then TPS will probably work best, but if you have a less wild cam (eg a V8D Stealth) then MAP will yield better results overall if you have time to tune it.

There should be no difference in engine response between the two if the tuning is done right. (Acceleration enrichment should be done by TPS even when using MAP) But saying that, MAP is a little bit more difficult to get right - specially when we usually only go aftermarket when we fit silly cams etc.

[2Munkys]

domV8 said:

I am replacing the Lucas 14CUX and dizzy setup in the Chimaera with the Emerald K3 ecu, and have a choice of mapping by TPS or MAP sensor.

In my experience (Rover Tomcat T16 turbo uses MAP sensor), the MAP sensor is a very reliable system - measuring what is actually going on in the plenum, rather than taking TPS readings and making calculations based on what should be going on.

A MAP sensor will provide correct readings accounting for things like air leaks etc, whereas a TPS would not - as I understand it.

So my question is - what is the best way to get it mapped? Is there something I am missing out, some benefits of the TPS that would tip it in it's favour..?

Can you use the TPS to complement a MAP sensor, or is it a case of either/or...?

It is difficult for me to speak to the garage as my work is going crazy at the moment, and I don't have time to speak to the garage - and the garage is obviously unavailable after work hours...

What are your thoughts guy...? What do you think is the best way to go..?

All replies appreciated,


Dom

Exactly the questions I was asking just a month back. My persuasion is what DNB is saying (above). I may be going wilder than the 404 at some point where at low engine speeds a wild cam won't produce much of a vacuum for a MAP sensor to work from.

[rev-erend]

A MAP sensor would seem essential for blown motors but TPS is much easier for normally aspirated.

[Simon Says]

Why not both? that's the normal way of doing things

Edited by Simon Says on Wednesday 24th March 12:12

[spend]

Normal pressure pulses & coughing back on overlap do not give a very stable pressure measurement for you to work with in all conditions. dnb said it clearly enough IMHO.

[Simon Says]

True,i should have read all the posts 1st

[domV8]

dnb said:

It depends on how crazy the cam choice is going to be.

If you go for something as wild as they come (eg M404) then TPS will probably work best, but if you have a less wild cam (eg a V8D Stealth) then MAP will yield better results overall if you have time to tune it.

There should be no difference in engine response between the two if the tuning is done right. (Acceleration enrichment should be done by TPS even when using MAP) But saying that, MAP is a little bit more difficult to get right - specially when we usually only go aftermarket when we fit silly cams etc.

I've got a TVR885 cam - which is a TVR Power-designed cam, that no one seems to know much about... Don't think it's too wild though, as it's operating range is between 2500-6250rpm, even though apparently it is 210degrees duration...

So that said - is it a waste of time to complement the TPS with the MAP sensor, or is the general concensus that it might provide a degree of finesse worthy of the £70 outlay for the sensor..?

Believe the Emerald K3 provides adaptive mapping, although am still to speak in-depth to the garage about what we can achieve with the Emerald on the RV8...

Dom

[Vixpy1]

I have seen some very nice maps on N/A cars done on TPS, it can work very well.

However I'd go for MAP

[dnb]

Mine's an H404 and it seems to work well with MAP everywhere except idle where the MAP signal flies around randomly between 50 and 60kPa and gives no real resolution to work with. There are ways to deal with this - one was my new intake system and another is to take a lot of care over the tuning. Getting acceleration enrichment (tip-in) right becomes extremely important here because this is the big reason why "everyone" says MAP doesn't give good response.

[Vixpy1]

dnb said:

Mine's an H404 and it seems to work well with MAP everywhere except idle where the MAP signal flies around randomly between 50 and 60kPa and gives no real resolution to work with. There are ways to deal with this - one was my new intake system and another is to take a lot of care over the tuning. Getting acceleration enrichment (tip-in) right becomes extremely important here because this is the big reason why "everyone" says MAP doesn't give good response.

I've been speaking to Mr Humphris who is now doing loom adaptors for us and when i get back from IOM he is hopefuly going to knock me up a loom so we can finally give the Chim the ECU it deserves

[rev-erend]

domV8 said:

dnb said:

It depends on how crazy the cam choice is going to be.

If you go for something as wild as they come (eg M404) then TPS will probably work best, but if you have a less wild cam (eg a V8D Stealth) then MAP will yield better results overall if you have time to tune it.

There should be no difference in engine response between the two if the tuning is done right. (Acceleration enrichment should be done by TPS even when using MAP) But saying that, MAP is a little bit more difficult to get right - specially when we usually only go aftermarket when we fit silly cams etc.

I've got a TVR885 cam - which is a TVR Power-designed cam, that no one seems to know much about... Don't think it's too wild though, as it's operating range is between 2500-6250rpm, even though apparently it is 210degrees duration...

So that said - is it a waste of time to complement the TPS with the MAP sensor, or is the general concensus that it might provide a degree of finesse worthy of the £70 outlay for the sensor..?

Believe the Emerald K3 provides adaptive mapping, although am still to speak in-depth to the garage about what we can achieve with the Emerald on the RV8...

Dom

210 degrees of duration .. sounds like a real old stump puller. Are you towing a caravan

Edited by rev-erend on Thursday 25th March 12:43

[dvs_dave]

Simon Says said:

Why not both? that's the normal way of doing things

Edited by Simon Says on Wednesday 24th March 12:12

Yes, why not both? This is how it's done on the Speed 6 and it works well.

[Simon Says]

dvs_dave said:

Simon Says said:

Why not both? that's the normal way of doing things

Edited by Simon Says on Wednesday 24th March 12:12

Yes, why not both? This is how it's done on the Speed 6 and it works well.

Trouble is the speed six as a throttle butterfly per cylinder and with that system you can get away with bloody murders,i have seen sidedraught carbs turn spiky cammed 4 pots that won't idle with 1 twin choke carb into pussy cats because of this,i may be referring to carbs but similar priciples apply,a common plenum (RV8) with a spiky cam will have a lousy vacuum signal at idle as said already

[spend]

Simon Says said:

dvs_dave said:

Simon Says said:

Why not both? that's the normal way of doing things

Edited by Simon Says on Wednesday 24th March 12:12

Yes, why not both? This is how it's done on the Speed 6 and it works well.

Trouble is the speed six as a throttle butterfly per cylinder and with that system you can get away with bloody murders,i have seen sidedraught carbs turn spiky cammed 4 pots that won't idle with 1 twin choke carb into pussy cats because of this,i may be referring to carbs but similar priciples apply,a common plenum (RV8) with a spiky cam will have a lousy vacuum signal at idle as said already

Zero to Hero in 7 posts...

Must be some kind of record

[Simon Says]

spend said:

Simon Says said:

dvs_dave said:

Simon Says said:

Why not both? that's the normal way of doing things

Edited by Simon Says on Wednesday 24th March 12:12

Yes, why not both? This is how it's done on the Speed 6 and it works well.

Trouble is the speed six as a throttle butterfly per cylinder and with that system you can get away with bloody murders,i have seen sidedraught carbs turn spiky cammed 4 pots that won't idle with 1 twin choke carb into pussy cats because of this,i may be referring to carbs but similar priciples apply,a common plenum (RV8) with a spiky cam will have a lousy vacuum signal at idle as said already

Zero to Hero in 7 posts...

Must be some kind of record

Don't get cha are you taking the piss by any chance how many do i normally take then can i join your elite club now?

Edited by Simon Says on Thursday 25th March 16:18

[dnb]

Vixpy1 said:

I've been speaking to Mr Humphris who is now doing loom adaptors for us and when i get back from IOM he is hopefuly going to knock me up a loom so we can finally give the Chim the ECU it deserves

He told me the other day he's doing these. It all sounds a great idea - if I had the money I would be looking at this route too.

But I still think you'll need more than a loom adaptor for the golf cart

Edited by dnb on Thursday 25th March 18:25

[Vixpy1]

dnb said:

Vixpy1 said:

I've been speaking to Mr Humphris who is now doing loom adaptors for us and when i get back from IOM he is hopefuly going to knock me up a loom so we can finally give the Chim the ECU it deserves

You'll need more than a loom adaptor for the golf cart

Well I'm thinking of going P38 front cover to run a cam sensor, May need a hand with that