Brake judder when coming to a stop
Discussion
Last week I bought back a car I sold 6 months ago. When coming to a stop, you feel the sensation of a warped disc, like a wheel isn't quite round, that sort of feeling.
From experience with the car (2002 Honda CRV) it has had 3 new calipers and has one original, which are prone to fail. The disc on the rear passenger side has odd staining/heat marks on it, which happens to be the one with the original caliper still on it. I'll attach a photo for reference.
Does this look like marking from a sticky caliper?
Going to jack it up at the weekend and check the wheel spins freely, and/or check the caliper piston retracts freely.
Discs and pads for the rear are only £50 or so and a new caliper is about £25, so not exactly expensive to sort if that is the issue, but I'd like to definitely find the fault.
The odd brake feeling is more noticeable when coming to a slower stop, you feel it as the wheels turns slowly, which is why I suspected possibly a warped disc.
Thanks
From experience with the car (2002 Honda CRV) it has had 3 new calipers and has one original, which are prone to fail. The disc on the rear passenger side has odd staining/heat marks on it, which happens to be the one with the original caliper still on it. I'll attach a photo for reference.
Does this look like marking from a sticky caliper?
Going to jack it up at the weekend and check the wheel spins freely, and/or check the caliper piston retracts freely.
Discs and pads for the rear are only £50 or so and a new caliper is about £25, so not exactly expensive to sort if that is the issue, but I'd like to definitely find the fault.
The odd brake feeling is more noticeable when coming to a slower stop, you feel it as the wheels turns slowly, which is why I suspected possibly a warped disc.
Thanks
Had a good look. Well, at the fronts at least. Front driver side lower slider pin was jammed and not moving and the brake pad shim at the bottom had broken.
Ordered a fresh slider pin kit and brake pad shims. Hopefully that'll sort that.
My trolley jack can't get the back end of the CRV up high enough annoyingly. Might try the included scissor jack as that is bound to be able to.
Failing that, I'll buy a high reach trolley jack.
Not sure whether to get new discs and pads to go with it all though, hmm....
Ordered a fresh slider pin kit and brake pad shims. Hopefully that'll sort that.
My trolley jack can't get the back end of the CRV up high enough annoyingly. Might try the included scissor jack as that is bound to be able to.
Failing that, I'll buy a high reach trolley jack.
Not sure whether to get new discs and pads to go with it all though, hmm....
Get one of these. Not cheap, but a superb jack.
https://www.weberuk.com/shop/trolley-jacks/high-li...
https://www.weberuk.com/shop/trolley-jacks/high-li...
I second the choice of Weber Jacks, have the standard 2 ton WKD20 which lifts my Prado high enough for all the jobs i need to do that don't involve sticking it on ramps.
Have an equally well made Sealey branded trolley jack which cost some £120 well over 30 years ago, used heavily it's still doing part time reliable service with my daughter.
A good trolley jack really can last you a whole lifetime, don't skimp on this purchase.
I'd just service the caliper properly and if it won't respond to cleaning lubing and exercising then simply replace it.
The disc looks in good condition to me.
This is the one downside with Japanese cars (i run Toyota/Subaru, the same with them), in countries with a road salt fetish the brakes ideally need annual full brake clean/lube/service or every other year if no signs of sticking.
Have an equally well made Sealey branded trolley jack which cost some £120 well over 30 years ago, used heavily it's still doing part time reliable service with my daughter.
A good trolley jack really can last you a whole lifetime, don't skimp on this purchase.
I'd just service the caliper properly and if it won't respond to cleaning lubing and exercising then simply replace it.
The disc looks in good condition to me.
This is the one downside with Japanese cars (i run Toyota/Subaru, the same with them), in countries with a road salt fetish the brakes ideally need annual full brake clean/lube/service or every other year if no signs of sticking.
Edited by Smint on Monday 28th February 07:02
Smint said:
I second the choice of Weber Jacks, have the standard 2 ton WKD20 which lifts my Prado high enough for all the jobs i need to do that don't involve sticking it on ramps.
Have an equally well made Sealey branded trolley jack which cost some £120 well over 30 years ago, used heavily it's still doing part time reliable service with my daughter.
A good trolley jack really can last you a whole lifetime, don't skimp on this purchase.
I'd just service the caliper properly and if it won't respond to cleaning lubing and exercising then simply replace it.
The disc looks in good condition to me.
This is the one downside with Japanese cars (i run Toyota/Subaru, the same with them), in countries with a road salt fetish the brakes ideally need annual full brake clean/lube/service or every other year if no signs of sticking.
Thanks for that. It does seem that way, the caliper with the stuck pin was new about 2 years ago, so hopefully fresh guide pins and lube with sort it.Have an equally well made Sealey branded trolley jack which cost some £120 well over 30 years ago, used heavily it's still doing part time reliable service with my daughter.
A good trolley jack really can last you a whole lifetime, don't skimp on this purchase.
I'd just service the caliper properly and if it won't respond to cleaning lubing and exercising then simply replace it.
The disc looks in good condition to me.
This is the one downside with Japanese cars (i run Toyota/Subaru, the same with them), in countries with a road salt fetish the brakes ideally need annual full brake clean/lube/service or every other year if no signs of sticking.
Edited by Smint on Monday 28th February 07:02
I think I'll make it part of my servicing schedule as it really doesn't take long
Just as a sanity check, a stuck guide pin would cause brake judder and odd sensations when braking and coming to a stop, wouldn't it? The inside brake pad had very slightly started the wear unevenly where the caliper clearly was not moving properly
As far as I can tell the rear (that I was suspicious of as it is an original caliper) seems fine, it is just the front driver side that I can find a fault with. Hoping that once I sort that issue, it *should* sort it...
As far as I can tell the rear (that I was suspicious of as it is an original caliper) seems fine, it is just the front driver side that I can find a fault with. Hoping that once I sort that issue, it *should* sort it...
Yes it would cause those symptoms.
But also check the pistons are free moving in their bores, what i do is work on one corner at a time, remove at least one pad (preferably the side opposite the piston if doing this on your own, with pad in place you'll be able to push the piston back easier) and get wifey to press .the brake pedal gently and observe the piston sliding out, then lever it back in, gently, rinse and repeat a few times.
With opposed or multiple piston calipers its easier because as you push one pad in the other should slide out, if one is sticking you may have to put something in place to prevent the sliding one from well, sliding, and force the other to move with pedal pressure.
It's permissable to peel back the piston dust cover to have a look see at its condition when it's half out and wipe some of the correct red rubber brake grease on the piston itself if necessary, i use a cotton bud for this when needed.
Purists say you shouldn't push pistons back because of danger of flipping master cylinder seals,and should instead open the bleed valve, whilst this is strictly true but in well over 40 years this hasn't happened to me and my own ocd would kick in that once i'd opened the bleed valve possibility of air getting in would mean i would have to bleed the brakes anyway.
I do sometimes just crack the bleed nipples and retighten so they arn't seized solid when it is time to flush the system.
If i recall right CRV has the decent drum inside disc park brake design, Civic style park brakes which operate the rear pads via self adjusters inside the caliper don't lend themselves to easy exercising of the pistons, never liked that design to be honest, much prefer drum inside disc which almost never give any trouble.
But also check the pistons are free moving in their bores, what i do is work on one corner at a time, remove at least one pad (preferably the side opposite the piston if doing this on your own, with pad in place you'll be able to push the piston back easier) and get wifey to press .the brake pedal gently and observe the piston sliding out, then lever it back in, gently, rinse and repeat a few times.
With opposed or multiple piston calipers its easier because as you push one pad in the other should slide out, if one is sticking you may have to put something in place to prevent the sliding one from well, sliding, and force the other to move with pedal pressure.
It's permissable to peel back the piston dust cover to have a look see at its condition when it's half out and wipe some of the correct red rubber brake grease on the piston itself if necessary, i use a cotton bud for this when needed.
Purists say you shouldn't push pistons back because of danger of flipping master cylinder seals,and should instead open the bleed valve, whilst this is strictly true but in well over 40 years this hasn't happened to me and my own ocd would kick in that once i'd opened the bleed valve possibility of air getting in would mean i would have to bleed the brakes anyway.
I do sometimes just crack the bleed nipples and retighten so they arn't seized solid when it is time to flush the system.
If i recall right CRV has the decent drum inside disc park brake design, Civic style park brakes which operate the rear pads via self adjusters inside the caliper don't lend themselves to easy exercising of the pistons, never liked that design to be honest, much prefer drum inside disc which almost never give any trouble.
Edited by Smint on Monday 28th February 08:30
Smint said:
Yes it would cause those symptoms.
But also check the pistons are free moving in their bores, what i do is work on one corner at a time, remove at least one pad (preferably the side opposite the piston if doing this on your own, with pad in place you'll be able to push the piston back easier) and get wifey to press .the brake pedal gently and observe the piston sliding out, then lever it back in, gently, rinse and repeat a few times.
With opposed or multiple piston calipers its easier because as you push one pad in the other should slide out, if one is sticking you may have to put something in place to prevent the sliding one from well, sliding, and force the other to move with pedal pressure.
It's permissable to peel back the piston dust cover to have a look see at its condition when it's half out and wipe some of the correct red rubber brake grease on the piston itself if necessary, i use a cotton bud for this when needed.
Purists say you shouldn't push pistons back because of danger of flipping master cylinder seals,and should instead open the bleed valve, whilst this is strictly true but in well over 40 years this hasn't happened to me and my own ocd would kick in that once i'd opened the bleed valve possibility of air getting in would mean i would have to bleed the brakes anyway.
I do sometimes just crack the bleed nipples and retighten so they arn't seized solid when it is time to flush the system.
If i recall right CRV has the decent drum inside disc park brake design, Civic style park brakes which operate the rear pads via self adjusters inside the caliper don't lend themselves to easy exercising of the pistons, never liked that design to be honest, much prefer drum inside disc which almost never give any trouble.
The piston of the caliper with the stuck guide pin moves in and out freely. It just seems to be the guide pin that is the issue. The rubber boot has split, so all of the grease has obviously leaked out and it is rusted around the top and is just a mess.But also check the pistons are free moving in their bores, what i do is work on one corner at a time, remove at least one pad (preferably the side opposite the piston if doing this on your own, with pad in place you'll be able to push the piston back easier) and get wifey to press .the brake pedal gently and observe the piston sliding out, then lever it back in, gently, rinse and repeat a few times.
With opposed or multiple piston calipers its easier because as you push one pad in the other should slide out, if one is sticking you may have to put something in place to prevent the sliding one from well, sliding, and force the other to move with pedal pressure.
It's permissable to peel back the piston dust cover to have a look see at its condition when it's half out and wipe some of the correct red rubber brake grease on the piston itself if necessary, i use a cotton bud for this when needed.
Purists say you shouldn't push pistons back because of danger of flipping master cylinder seals,and should instead open the bleed valve, whilst this is strictly true but in well over 40 years this hasn't happened to me and my own ocd would kick in that once i'd opened the bleed valve possibility of air getting in would mean i would have to bleed the brakes anyway.
I do sometimes just crack the bleed nipples and retighten so they arn't seized solid when it is time to flush the system.
If i recall right CRV has the decent drum inside disc park brake design, Civic style park brakes which operate the rear pads via self adjusters inside the caliper don't lend themselves to easy exercising of the pistons, never liked that design to be honest, much prefer drum inside disc which almost never give any trouble.
Edited by Smint on Monday 28th February 08:30
New guide pins and pad fitting kit arriving tomorrow!
Smint said:
Purists say you shouldn't push pistons back because of danger of flipping master cylinder seals,and should instead open the bleed valve, whilst this is strictly true but in well over 40 years this hasn't happened to me and my own ocd would kick in that once i'd opened the bleed valve possibility of air getting in would mean i would have to bleed the brakes anyway.
Interesting. Most brake systems, I assume are still by evacuate and fill, so seals are capable of two way movement. We had to change the seals to accept this when I introduced one of the first evacuate and fill systems in Europe - and that was back in 1980 ! Someone will no doubt update if brake filling in production has changed drastically.Edited by Smint on Monday 28th February 08:30
Update on this, new discs and pads fitted + new guide pin kit on the driver side...
The new discs and pads have fixed the judder completely. The issue I now have is, the new bottom guide pin (on Honda's it is the one with the flat bottom and a rubber bushing that slots on) was really stiff to get into the caliper, even when very lubed up. Once in, it does move, but nowhere near as freely as the top pin. The same pin on the passenger side moves very freely.
I will note, the old pin did not have this rubber bushing on, is it necessary? Without that, the pin moves freely as expected. Is the rubber bushing actually needed?
If so, what can I do? The hole for the guide pin is clean, I used a lot of brake cleaner and it looks shiny and perfectly fine in there. To me, it feels like the rubber bushing is too wide and is causing the pin to drag inside the chamber.
The wheel on that side does feel ever so slightly warmer after driving, but not exactly hot.
A bit of research online suggests it is just an anti-rattle bushing, which to me, doesn't seem necessary...
Alternatively, could it just be that since the guide pin is still moving freely, albeit slightly less easily that the top pin, that the system is all okay and the rubber bushing is in fact doing it's job? Perhaps I'm making a problem out of nothing?
Any help would be appreciated!
The new discs and pads have fixed the judder completely. The issue I now have is, the new bottom guide pin (on Honda's it is the one with the flat bottom and a rubber bushing that slots on) was really stiff to get into the caliper, even when very lubed up. Once in, it does move, but nowhere near as freely as the top pin. The same pin on the passenger side moves very freely.
I will note, the old pin did not have this rubber bushing on, is it necessary? Without that, the pin moves freely as expected. Is the rubber bushing actually needed?
If so, what can I do? The hole for the guide pin is clean, I used a lot of brake cleaner and it looks shiny and perfectly fine in there. To me, it feels like the rubber bushing is too wide and is causing the pin to drag inside the chamber.
The wheel on that side does feel ever so slightly warmer after driving, but not exactly hot.
A bit of research online suggests it is just an anti-rattle bushing, which to me, doesn't seem necessary...
Alternatively, could it just be that since the guide pin is still moving freely, albeit slightly less easily that the top pin, that the system is all okay and the rubber bushing is in fact doing it's job? Perhaps I'm making a problem out of nothing?
Any help would be appreciated!
Edited by gman88667733 on Thursday 10th March 16:00
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