Poor paint colour match by main dealer - any advice?
Discussion
Mrs JS light metalic blue Pug recently had some body and paint repairs at the guilty parties insurance companys chosen repairer. Were assured it would be done to approved standards when I asked about quality of work.
Came back with a noticable paint miss match - it's significantly too purple in artificial light and even in daylight does not look quite right when viewed at an angle. The bodyshop concerned has admitted it's not right and has willingly taken it back to paint it again. So far so good.
Question though for any paint experts on here - should it be possible for a bodyshop to get a perfect match? I thought it should be easy to achieve with modern paint technology and I'm a bit concerened as the Bodyshop manager told me there was only one shade of that Peugeot paint available so if that's the case how will they be able to get a satisfactory match?
Any advice so I can challenge them if it's still not right when we go to collect it?
Cheers Chaps
Came back with a noticable paint miss match - it's significantly too purple in artificial light and even in daylight does not look quite right when viewed at an angle. The bodyshop concerned has admitted it's not right and has willingly taken it back to paint it again. So far so good.
Question though for any paint experts on here - should it be possible for a bodyshop to get a perfect match? I thought it should be easy to achieve with modern paint technology and I'm a bit concerened as the Bodyshop manager told me there was only one shade of that Peugeot paint available so if that's the case how will they be able to get a satisfactory match?
Any advice so I can challenge them if it's still not right when we go to collect it?
Cheers Chaps
Jaguar steve said:
should it be possible for a bodyshop to get a perfect match?
As a matter of strict science, no.Too many factors affect the look of sprayed paint. Even if the same paint from the exact same batch used to paint the car at the factory could be sourced (almost impossible - virtually all repairs are made up from base tinters to the closest match that the refinish paint system can supply), the nozzle setup on the spray equipment, spray technique used, ambient temp and humidity, even the electrostatic conditions can have an effect.
Add to that the fact that colour perception is *not* absolute, and metamerism (how we perceive colour is different depending on what wavelength of light we view the object), and it becomes very clear that "perfect" colour matching is a scientific impossibility.
If a car has previously had any refinish work, or suffered from UV breakdown of the original pigments, it becomes more complicated still. Some cars have their plastic parts painted with different batches of paint to the metalwork...
A skilled operator may be able to tint an approximate paint recipe to a better match. Even really quite rough matches can be made to look seamless to the eye by fading the refinish paint into the original finish - but this gets you a better colour-match at the expense of painting essentially undamaged panels.
The more a refinisher has spent on their paint system(s) the more they should have in the way of multiple recipes for different batches of OEM paint, and colour-support tools. Operations that concentrate on smaller repairs have to have very precise colour matches, and will often invest in a deck of colour chips with sprayed paint samples of every version of every paint in their database. A bulk, cheap paint system may not offer this.
If your refinisher has access to a decent system, or a supplier with a spectrophotometer, they could try getting the original paint scanned and a custom recipe put together?
So there may be ways your finish can be improved. But anyone promising a truly perfect match is either ignorant of the science behind painting, or trying to mislead you...
Tol
Edited for typo
Edited by Anatol on Tuesday 8th December 10:48
To mess with your head:
The central X in the middle of these two crosses are *the same colour*. Not one blue/grey and one yellow.
The squares marked A and B in this image are *the same colour*. Not two completely different grey tones.
You won't believe me. You'll load them into photoshop to check. And you'll be utterly boggled.
Colour perception is not a straightforward thing!
Tol
The central X in the middle of these two crosses are *the same colour*. Not one blue/grey and one yellow.
The squares marked A and B in this image are *the same colour*. Not two completely different grey tones.
You won't believe me. You'll load them into photoshop to check. And you'll be utterly boggled.
Colour perception is not a straightforward thing!
Tol
Are they blending through the adjacent panel?
It is supposed to be quite hard to get a good match without blending with some colours.
When the bodyshop submits a quote for the work they may include to blend into the next panel, a number of insurance companies will instruct the bodyshop not to do this as it's cheaper and can be acceptable.
It is supposed to be quite hard to get a good match without blending with some colours.
When the bodyshop submits a quote for the work they may include to blend into the next panel, a number of insurance companies will instruct the bodyshop not to do this as it's cheaper and can be acceptable.
andye30m3 said:
Are they blending through the adjacent panel?
It is supposed to be quite hard to get a good match without blending with some colours.
When the bodyshop submits a quote for the work they may include to blend into the next panel, a number of insurance companies will instruct the bodyshop not to do this as it's cheaper and can be acceptable.
Yes, it was the ns front wing and and bumper that got hit. It's had a new wing and the paint has been blended into half way down the ns door. The miss match is most obvious where the top of the wing meets the bonnet and the bottom where it meets the sill. It really is obvious too, even at a quick glance you can see it's not right. Ringing the bodyshop tomorrow to see when it'll be done. To be fair they have agreed to do it again so they must (hopefully) know they can do better, but it's got to be right - before the accident that car was immaculate. It is supposed to be quite hard to get a good match without blending with some colours.
When the bodyshop submits a quote for the work they may include to blend into the next panel, a number of insurance companies will instruct the bodyshop not to do this as it's cheaper and can be acceptable.
What's the paint code? Might be able to give you an idea if there are any variants.
Most colours have at least one variant, but not necessarily all paint manufacturers have formulations.
As an example one car I did recently - also a Peugeot coincidentally - in solid red had two shades in Nexa, neither of which were anything like the car. Both were too orange. Spies Hecker listed a formulation variant which was bluer & was an excellent match.
You will also find that insurance companies usually refuse to pay for other than the damage to be repaired which leads to mismatch problems as you can't then blend out onto adjacent panels. They keep their 'prefered repairers' on VERY tight leashes & as said this is why some have gone bust.
With some colours the only real option is to paint the whole side of the car and in the DuPont system 'overall repair' is sometimes advise by them!
Having the paint eyematched is another option as is the use of a spectrometer but even then I have seen poor results with both.
Having said all that, if the match is that bad, then refer it back to the insurers as not acceptable.
Most colours have at least one variant, but not necessarily all paint manufacturers have formulations.
As an example one car I did recently - also a Peugeot coincidentally - in solid red had two shades in Nexa, neither of which were anything like the car. Both were too orange. Spies Hecker listed a formulation variant which was bluer & was an excellent match.
You will also find that insurance companies usually refuse to pay for other than the damage to be repaired which leads to mismatch problems as you can't then blend out onto adjacent panels. They keep their 'prefered repairers' on VERY tight leashes & as said this is why some have gone bust.
With some colours the only real option is to paint the whole side of the car and in the DuPont system 'overall repair' is sometimes advise by them!
Having the paint eyematched is another option as is the use of a spectrometer but even then I have seen poor results with both.
Having said all that, if the match is that bad, then refer it back to the insurers as not acceptable.
paintman said:
What's the paint code? Might be able to give you an idea if there are any variants.
Most colours have at least one variant, but not necessarily all paint manufacturers have formulations.
As an example one car I did recently - also a Peugeot coincidentally - in solid red had two shades in Nexa, neither of which were anything like the car. Both were too orange. Spies Hecker listed a formulation variant which was bluer & was an excellent match.
You will also find that insurance companies usually refuse to pay for other than the damage to be repaired which leads to mismatch problems as you can't then blend out onto adjacent panels. They keep their 'prefered repairers' on VERY tight leashes & as said this is why some have gone bust.
With some colours the only real option is to paint the whole side of the car and in the DuPont system 'overall repair' is sometimes advise by them!
Having the paint eyematched is another option as is the use of a spectrometer but even then I have seen poor results with both.
Having said all that, if the match is that bad, then refer it back to the insurers as not acceptable.
Cheers Paintman Most colours have at least one variant, but not necessarily all paint manufacturers have formulations.
As an example one car I did recently - also a Peugeot coincidentally - in solid red had two shades in Nexa, neither of which were anything like the car. Both were too orange. Spies Hecker listed a formulation variant which was bluer & was an excellent match.
You will also find that insurance companies usually refuse to pay for other than the damage to be repaired which leads to mismatch problems as you can't then blend out onto adjacent panels. They keep their 'prefered repairers' on VERY tight leashes & as said this is why some have gone bust.
With some colours the only real option is to paint the whole side of the car and in the DuPont system 'overall repair' is sometimes advise by them!
Having the paint eyematched is another option as is the use of a spectrometer but even then I have seen poor results with both.
Having said all that, if the match is that bad, then refer it back to the insurers as not acceptable.
, it's a mid metalic blue on a 2004 car. I think the code is KMF - that's what is on the touch up stick so I'm guessing that's right. If you've got any info on alternatives I'd really appreciate it. Already told the insurance co I'm not happy and asked them to delay payment - but I guess the insurers and their "approved" bodyshops are so far up each other's arses they will do anything to save some cash. I'm happy with the blend in on the door - you'd never know that's what they had done, so if the paint is right hopefully they'll have done the same to the bonnet and sill this time too.
Our colour-match system has 4 main variants and a further 14 field formulas listed on the database for Peugeot KMF (that's the Nexa Aquabase Plus tinter system).
So your bodyshop shouldn't have difficulty getting paint in with more flexibility on match, even if their own system only lists one recipe.
HTH
Tol
So your bodyshop shouldn't have difficulty getting paint in with more flexibility on match, even if their own system only lists one recipe.
HTH
Tol
Peugeot KMF comes up as Bleu Recife.(God knows what that is in English
)
DuPont Cromax (waterbased) shows 7 different formulations.
Spies Hecker Permahyd (waterbased) also shows 7 different formulations, of which 3 are formulations they've done in response to queries/problems.
Spies Hecker ones are:
1. Original
2. Darker
3. Greener
4. Greener and Lighter
5. Service formulation Bluer
6. Service formulation Darker (this will differ from 2 above)
7. Service formulation Lighter
You may also find the variants by one paint maker are nothing like those of another paint maker (even though PPG own most of them!)
I feel the best approach would be to ask the garage to get the paint eye-matched by someone who knows what they are doing. For anyone in the Leicester area I can highly recommend Hex Holdings, their eyematcher has been doing it for over 30 years.
Who'd be a car painter!
)DuPont Cromax (waterbased) shows 7 different formulations.
Spies Hecker Permahyd (waterbased) also shows 7 different formulations, of which 3 are formulations they've done in response to queries/problems.
Spies Hecker ones are:
1. Original
2. Darker
3. Greener
4. Greener and Lighter
5. Service formulation Bluer
6. Service formulation Darker (this will differ from 2 above)
7. Service formulation Lighter
You may also find the variants by one paint maker are nothing like those of another paint maker (even though PPG own most of them!)
I feel the best approach would be to ask the garage to get the paint eye-matched by someone who knows what they are doing. For anyone in the Leicester area I can highly recommend Hex Holdings, their eyematcher has been doing it for over 30 years.
Who'd be a car painter!
Edited by paintman on Thursday 10th December 17:59
Slight thread hijack - here's an alleged solution:
http://www.smartexpress.co.uk/colour-corrector-vid...
Though I'm somewhat nervous about long-term durability without testing it. Might be a wonderful development for the industry, might be a horrible bodge to try and fix what is already an avoidable mistake...
Tol
http://www.smartexpress.co.uk/colour-corrector-vid...
Though I'm somewhat nervous about long-term durability without testing it. Might be a wonderful development for the industry, might be a horrible bodge to try and fix what is already an avoidable mistake...
Tol
Smart ABC use an isocyanate-cured lacquer (hence their air-fed RPE and exclusion zone), so they should be ok unless the stuff is ridiculously high-solvent.
Given that it comes in bottles to be applied through a spraygun, so it can't be taking advantage of the aerosol loophole, it must be VOC compliant? So presumably low-solvent enough to be compatible with most stuff?
It must be the ultimate nightmare for a detailer though. The build must be very low - put a rotary over the panel and suddenly find you've torn back what is essentially the fade-out edge on a tinted clear? Ouch...
Tol
Given that it comes in bottles to be applied through a spraygun, so it can't be taking advantage of the aerosol loophole, it must be VOC compliant? So presumably low-solvent enough to be compatible with most stuff?
It must be the ultimate nightmare for a detailer though. The build must be very low - put a rotary over the panel and suddenly find you've torn back what is essentially the fade-out edge on a tinted clear? Ouch...
Tol
paintman said:
Jaguar steve said:
Should be ready tomorrow morning.. fingers crossed and thanks for all your info. Cheers Chaps Will post once we've got it back
Well?Will post once we've got it backEdited by paintman on Saturday 12th December 11:55
Actually looks like a new car
Cheers for all responses Chaps I think they knew they'd done a crap job, probrably because the insurance co had them by the b
ks on costs. No arguement or disagreement when we took it back, instead we got an apology and an immaculately repaired car second time round.
Baby JS had her Fiesta Zetec smashed up in a single vehicle accident - conveneiently without any witnesses - whilst out on a road test by a Ford main dealer a couple of years ago - yes really. PH name and shame rules won't let me say who but the dealer is named after a small town beginning with D near Harwich in north Essex. The repairs they did the first time were laughably bad - even their QA technician admitted they were horrible.
The second repair 'tho was immaculate. It can be done, but I guess they'll only do what they need to keep most people happy and make as much cash for themselves in the meantime.
ks on costs. No arguement or disagreement when we took it back, instead we got an apology and an immaculately repaired car second time round.Baby JS had her Fiesta Zetec smashed up in a single vehicle accident - conveneiently without any witnesses - whilst out on a road test by a Ford main dealer a couple of years ago - yes really. PH name and shame rules won't let me say who but the dealer is named after a small town beginning with D near Harwich in north Essex. The repairs they did the first time were laughably bad - even their QA technician admitted they were horrible.
The second repair 'tho was immaculate. It can be done, but I guess they'll only do what they need to keep most people happy and make as much cash for themselves in the meantime.
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