Why the obsession with originality of classics?

[swisstoni]

There are those who like originality above all else and others who 'improve' cars to their own requirements.

I really can't see any great issue one way or the other.
It's really not for adherents of either approach to criticise the other.

[a8hex]

Yertis said:

Presumably the people who bang on about originality in old cars take the same attitude with their houses, and live in draughty old places with no heating, no running water and an outside bog, because "that's how it was built".

One significant difference between my house and what I want out of a classic car is that I wouldn't have a modern house to use most of the time and just have a classic house when I want to play. But then there are plenty of people who own nice modern houses which keep them warm and dry but also own a tent.

[mph]

swisstoni said:

There are those who like originality above all else and others who 'improve' cars to their own requirements.

I really can't see any great issue one way or the other.
It's really not for adherents of either approach to criticise the other.

Couldn't agree more.

There are enough challenges facing our hobby without criticising fellow enthusiasts for not presenting their car to our taste. Ridiculous.

[AW111]

a8hex said:

Yertis said:

Presumably the people who bang on about originality in old cars take the same attitude with their houses, and live in draughty old places with no heating, no running water and an outside bog, because "that's how it was built".

One significant difference between my house and what I want out of a classic car is that I wouldn't have a modern house to use most of the time and just have a classic house when I want to play. But then there are plenty of people who own nice modern houses which keep them warm and dry but also own a tent.

While this is true for many, a few of us who modify "classics" do so because we drive them every day.

[Equus]

DonkeyApple said:

Many old cars have been modified over their life by owners who adapted them for their needs and each of these changes is the true history of that car. Eradicating that living history to turn it into a clone of something that only existed for a brief moment of time before it was bought seems a folly.

That's a very reasonable argument, particularly when applied to race cars or something like a Landy.

But modifying a car to make it fit for purpose during its working life (whilst still a daily driver/competitive race car/active workhorse) is somewhat different to modifying after it has achieved 'classic' status and is really nothing more than a collector's piece.

I think that - again with race cars in particular - the market does recognise that modifications during a car's active working life are acceptable, and even desirable to retain.

We've reached page seven of this thread, and without checking every post, I'm not sure we've heard the phrase 'period modification', yet? Period mods are generally accepted and even welcomed; out-of-period mods are not.

[swisstoni]

Here we go again ...

I agree with a lot of what you say but 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' are only for the concours ring.

[Equus]

swisstoni said:

'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' are only for the concours ring.

Or for the purposes of valuation.... which is where this thread originated.

[DonkeyApple]

swisstoni said:

There are those who like originality above all else and others who 'improve' cars to their own requirements.

I really can't see any great issue one way or the other.
It's really not for adherents of either approach to criticise the other.

Exactly. But it is a rather lopsided fence. Those who are happy to change an old car to be what they want it to be usually don't bang on about the vitality of their work or pour scorn on those who aren't as brilliant as them. Conversely, the rabid fanatics of the 'your windscreen wiper blade is 0.5 degrees different from when it rolled off the production line and therefore you are an inferior human and your car is junk' tend to be the ones doing all the gobbing off.

I have a few old cars, one which I keep original as I feel inclined to do so as there are only three of them and it is a bit of history of the marque and another. I don't believe modding it would change its value though. One car that I know I will be selling later this year and always knew I would be so I have done nothing to it and kept it original to preserve its commercial value and another which they built thousands of, there are hundreds of returned to new examples and plenty of 'still as original' ones and that car I am turning into the classic that I precisely want for me which will decimate it's value.

Ultimately, I am a classic car liberal and have no real issue with how people wish to obtain personal pleasure from their personal chattels but I have no time for the fascists at either end who actually think they or their chattels are superior due to some fanatical belief. They are just life's choppers. Luckily many will offer advance warning by either wearing high viz or if their parents were wealthy, driving an E Type.

[Equus]

DonkeyApple said:

...or if their parents were wealthy, driving an E Type.

Unless it's an Eagle one?

[RBH58]

I'm so in two minds about this, I don't have problem with fettling them to make them liveable classics. Like putting modern electrics and brakes and suspension that work on a DB5 or an E-Type. But when I see classics like this that have been "stanced", I think a public flogging is called for...

[lowdrag]

DonkeyApple said:

Ultimately, I am a classic car liberal and have no real issue with how people wish to obtain personal pleasure from their personal chattels but I have no time for the fascists at either end who actually think they or their chattels are superior due to some fanatical belief. They are just life's choppers. Luckily many will offer advance warning by either wearing high viz or if their parents were wealthy, driving an E Type.

I take exception to that. There are still, though the number is naturally declining due to anno domini, a number of us who owned and still own E-types and were, in the day, derided for having such an antiquated rust bucket. Through thick and thin we have stuck by our passion, driving all over Europe, no high viz jackets, no back-up white van man mechanic with spares, just cameraderie, fun and a considerable amount of wine and beer. It is not our fault that the market has decided our cars were too cheap, and we too dislike the increased cost of insurance, the requirements to secure our garages, et al. I'd give all that up to go back to where we were. It isn't I who is trying to be superior here.

[DonkeyApple]

Equus said:

swisstoni said:

'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' are only for the concours ring.

Or for the purposes of valuation.... which is where this thread originated.

Which suggests a link between the fixation on valuation and the levels of indebtedness of the market? Maybe burst the bubble, clear out the leveraged speculators etc and some of the extremism will evaporate?

I have very unfond memories of my childhood and being bored witless by countless EType and MG owners who were being avidly avoided by the adults and would corner me to tell me how important their car was and how much they knew about the model. I was far too polite and hadn't learnt yet the skill of being able to politely swerve them (it didn't help that my father and his chums were clearly taking great delight in my predicament!). They ruined many a wonderful dinner event for me. But just as I reached the tipping point of knowing I was going to just punch the next old twit who tried to tell me that even Enzo said their car was the most beautiful car in the world the '87 crash made them all disappear overnight.

[DonkeyApple]

Equus said:

DonkeyApple said:

...or if their parents were wealthy, driving an E Type.

Unless it's an Eagle one?

True. . But mostly they are bought after the parents have finally had the good grace to drop dead. PPPP. Prime Post Probate Purchase.

[Equus]

DonkeyApple said:

Which suggests a link between the fixation on valuation and the levels of indebtedness of the market? Maybe burst the bubble, clear out the leveraged speculators etc and some of the extremism will evaporate?

Well, I can only say that it didn't happen like that the last time(s).

The last couple of times the classic car bubble has burst, it did the opposite: quality and originality became even more sensitive, and the poorly restored or non-original tat became virtually worthless.

In a buyers market, the buyers become more picky, not less.

[aeropilot]

Equus said:

We've reached page seven of this thread, and without checking every post, I'm not sure we've heard the phrase 'period modification', yet? Period mods are generally accepted and even welcomed; out-of-period mods are not.

I only fitted in-period mods to my Sunbeam-Lotus. The only exception was a Quaife ATB diff rather than a clutch type LSD. This was out of neccessity more than any other reason, as at the time (late 1980's) you could no longer get a proper clutch type LSD for them, and only the Quaife was available. Some years later, the LSD's were remade again, but I wasn't going to do that job again.

All other mods I did were using correct factory Peugeot-Talbot Sport parts, as used/supplied by the Humber Road Competitions Dept.

[e21Mark]

That's the kind of thing I've done with my E30. It had already been partially stripped and prepared for track work anyway, so all I have done is re do things with a bit more care. My car was actually modified from new by Hamann Motorsport where it had been on their show stand and they had done a subtle flair on the rear wheel arch. Apart from that, pretty much everything done was available in period, apart from the standalone maybe?

[mph]

DonkeyApple said:

Exactly. But it is a rather lopsided fence. Those who are happy to change an old car to be what they want it to be usually don't bang on about the vitality of their work or pour scorn on those who aren't as brilliant as them. Conversely, the rabid fanatics of the 'your windscreen wiper blade is 0.5 degrees different from when it rolled off the production line and therefore you are an inferior human and your car is junk' tend to be the ones doing all the gobbing off.

I must be fortunate in that although I attend numerous car shows and rallies and regularly tour my classic car overseas I've generally found almost everyone involved with classic cars to be friendly and inclusive.

In fact it's only on this forum that I've seen ridiculous stereotyping, animosity and sarcasm directed towards various factions involved in our hobby.

[Riley Blue]

mph said:

DonkeyApple said:

Exactly. But it is a rather lopsided fence. Those who are happy to change an old car to be what they want it to be usually don't bang on about the vitality of their work or pour scorn on those who aren't as brilliant as them. Conversely, the rabid fanatics of the 'your windscreen wiper blade is 0.5 degrees different from when it rolled off the production line and therefore you are an inferior human and your car is junk' tend to be the ones doing all the gobbing off.

I must be fortunate in that although I attend numerous car shows and rallies and regularly tour my classic car overseas I've generally found almost everyone involved with classic cars to be friendly and inclusive.

In fact it's only on this forum that I've seen ridiculous stereotyping, animosity and sarcasm directed towards various factions involved in our hobby.

I've seen, heard and suffered it in in many other places including amongst classic club members who can be most vociferous about cars, people and attitudes they don't approve of. It's one of the reasons I was happy to resign from a one-marque club after many years of being a member, sitting on its committee and becoming its chairman. I'm now enjoying my hobby far more than I ever did now that I'm able to 'do my thing' without being castigated by old codgers with entrenched views and outdated ideas.

[sim16v]

Come on then Equus, show us some photos of your classics.

What classics do you have and cherish?

Or are you one of the vociferous rivet counters that attends classic car shows in their Picasso?

[DonkeyApple]

Equus said:

DonkeyApple said:

Which suggests a link between the fixation on valuation and the levels of indebtedness of the market? Maybe burst the bubble, clear out the leveraged speculators etc and some of the extremism will evaporate?

Well, I can only say that it didn't happen like that the last time(s).

The last couple of times the classic car bubble has burst, it did the opposite: quality and originality became even more sensitive, and the poorly restored or non-original tat became virtually worthless.

In a buyers market, the buyers become more picky, not less.

There will simply be far fewer of them as the majority will have left the market. And in addition, common sense tends to return and as you say, the selection process becomes more honed and generally more worthy.