Discussion
hugoagogo said:
taking over all the pacific islands and controlling the whole of east asia without any sea or air resistance?
And protecting their new posessions, yes. But they surely didn't think that the US would go 'Ho hum' and do nothing?
'Waking the sleeping tiger' as the Admiral (Yamamoto?)said.
If I was a computer programmer, I'd like to run a mathmatical model of WW2 without Pearl Harbor, ie without US in the war, and see what happens...
simpo two said:
Just watched this drama/doc on BBC2.
What did Japan hope to achieve by destroying the US Pacific Fleet? If they had sunk the carriers as well, did they have a 'next step'?
The Japanese made a big error attacking Pearl when they did, because some of the large American aircraft Carriers were out at sea at the time, this proved decisive during the Japanese rout at the "Battle of Midway".........
simpo two said:
If I was a computer programmer, I'd like to run a mathmatical model of WW2 without Pearl Harbor, ie without US in the war, and see what happens...
Easy...
Without the Yanks coming into the war, and the help of "lend lease" in 40/41 we would have been under the jackboot by 1944, or the "Red flag", take your pick.....
simpo two said:
What did Japan hope to achieve by destroying the US Pacific Fleet? If they had sunk the carriers as well, did they have a 'next step'?
This is pretty good account of why.
www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm
Mainly a US oil embargo on Japan kicked it off, since they had no natural reserves and had a little spat with China, the Dutch and Britain to deal with....suprising huh?
Wacky Racer said:
Without the Yanks coming into the war, and the help of "lend lease" in 40/41 we would have been under the jackboot by 1944, or the "Red flag", take your pick.....
I'm not an expert historian but without D-Day and the subsequent second front, Germany's chances of holding/defeating Russia would have been significantly greater.
I think today we might have had a German/Russian border much further east, and Europe as a more pacific Third Reich. I'm not convinced that Hitler would have bothered to invade us: he was not at idealistic odds with us, like he was with Russia.
The other scenario is to consider: what if he hadn't invaded Russia? Without the Russians to fight, Germany probably could have repelled the D-Day invasion. Would Stalin have been content to let Hitler take and keep Europe, or attacked anyway?
FourWheelDrift said:
www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm
'The imposition of higher taxes undermined the economic stability and vitality of the Empire. Taxes were raised to pay for deficit government spending, to pay for food for all in society and to pay for government-sponsored activities of diversion, such as circuses and sports. Interestingly, as the time of the final collapse drew closer, greater emphasis was placed on sports, to divert the attention of the public from the distressing news of massive trouble within the Empire.'
Wooo! Put into writing what I've been feeling for some time.
simpo two said:
Without the Yanks coming into the war, and the help of "lend lease" in 40/41 we would have been under the jackboot by 1944, or the "Red flag", take your pick.....
I'm not an expert historian but without D-Day and the subsequent second front, Germany's chances of holding/defeating Russia would have been significantly greater.
I think today we might have had a German/Russian border much further east, and Europe as a more pacific Third Reich. I'm not convinced that Hitler would have bothered to invade us: he was not at idealistic odds with us, like he was with Russia.
The other scenario is to consider: what if he hadn't invaded Russia? Without the Russians to fight, Germany probably could have repelled the D-Day invasion. Would Stalin have been content to let Hitler take and keep Europe, or attacked anyway?
Hitler's biggest mistake (imo) was opening up the second front when he did, he was literally a couple of miles from Stalingrad, when the Russian winter came to the rescue, German artillery and Tanks freezing up in the intense cold and getting bogged down in the mud when the thaw came......
Of course the Russkies also had the finest
in the war in the T34.......... Anybody who under estimates the American influence should look at UK aircraft production figures in 1943/4/5, compared to 40/41........
Also the use of the American P51 Mustang with long range underslung fuel tanks proved decisive in escorting our bombers over the Reich in the last few months of the war............
As a product of the Second World War, mother Dutch and father British Air Force serving in Holland ( pause for sighs from the romantic amongst us) I for one am glad that it took place as if it hadn't I wouldnt have been here. As I get older however, I find I take more and more interest in modern history esp WW2.
I, of course, am not happy about how the Dutch were starved into submission, my mother weighed 7 stone after the war, or any of the other countless atrocities.
Indeed I find myself taking satisfaction in the way my Dutch Grandfather nailed the local Nazi sympathiser to his garden gate to encourage him and everyone else maintain secrecy about the 60 forced labour escapees, including my uncle after whom I was named, hiding in the church catacombs not less than 6 feet below German anti aircraft batteries.
I often wonder how I would have reacted in the same circumstances. Extraordinary circumstances it seems brings forth equally amazing reactions from ordinary people, who when the situation is passed, go back to their normal life, simply grateful to have survived the awful situation alive and intact.
Reading through the history books, eg Winston Churchills History of the Second World War, once Pearl Harbour happened it was in reality a foregone conclusion that Germany and Japan were doomed, it was a simple matter of time. In fact the only time Germany could have won the war was if they had invaded Britain immediately following Dunkirk.
I think that Japan knew that their only chance was to sieze as much territory as possible, let Germany fight the Allies to a standstill and then both Germany and Japan negotiate for peace based on the lands they had already seized.
Unfortunately neither Germany nor Japan had realised just how the Russians could cope with modern warfare and how they would triumph in Stalingrad. What use is a mechanised infrantry division when the oil in the vehicle freezes and the most effective weapon in the house to house, floor to floor fighting in Stalingrad was a sharpenened spade !!
Cheers,
Tony
I, of course, am not happy about how the Dutch were starved into submission, my mother weighed 7 stone after the war, or any of the other countless atrocities.
Indeed I find myself taking satisfaction in the way my Dutch Grandfather nailed the local Nazi sympathiser to his garden gate to encourage him and everyone else maintain secrecy about the 60 forced labour escapees, including my uncle after whom I was named, hiding in the church catacombs not less than 6 feet below German anti aircraft batteries.
I often wonder how I would have reacted in the same circumstances. Extraordinary circumstances it seems brings forth equally amazing reactions from ordinary people, who when the situation is passed, go back to their normal life, simply grateful to have survived the awful situation alive and intact.
Reading through the history books, eg Winston Churchills History of the Second World War, once Pearl Harbour happened it was in reality a foregone conclusion that Germany and Japan were doomed, it was a simple matter of time. In fact the only time Germany could have won the war was if they had invaded Britain immediately following Dunkirk.
I think that Japan knew that their only chance was to sieze as much territory as possible, let Germany fight the Allies to a standstill and then both Germany and Japan negotiate for peace based on the lands they had already seized.
Unfortunately neither Germany nor Japan had realised just how the Russians could cope with modern warfare and how they would triumph in Stalingrad. What use is a mechanised infrantry division when the oil in the vehicle freezes and the most effective weapon in the house to house, floor to floor fighting in Stalingrad was a sharpenened spade !!
Cheers,
Tony
What is interesting is how the US were persuaded to take on as great a role in defeating Germany as they were Japsn. Even after 7 December, there was not a unanimous opinion in the US that they had to fight Germany. After all, a goodly number of US citizens were 1st or 2nd generation Germans.
Hitler helped things along by actually declaring war on the US (which was rather stupid) and Winston Churchill did a very good job in convincing Roosevelt that Germany was at least as important a target as Japan.
Hitler helped things along by actually declaring war on the US (which was rather stupid) and Winston Churchill did a very good job in convincing Roosevelt that Germany was at least as important a target as Japan.
RAF Fighter Command was put under severe strain by the Luftwaffe's bombing of the airfields and, probably more importantly, the bombing of the Chain Home radar stations. The other big worry for Dowding (the chief of Fighter Command) was the rate of loss of his pilots.
The situation would have been even worse if German intelligence hadn't been so poor. Firstly, they totally underestimated the importsnce of the radar system to Britain's air defence and they often bombed non-Fighter Command airfields.
There is no doubt that the biggest error the Germans made was their premature assumption that Fighter Command had been essentially wiped out as an effective force and their subsequent switch from bombing Fighter Command related targets to London and other British cities.
The situation would have been even worse if German intelligence hadn't been so poor. Firstly, they totally underestimated the importsnce of the radar system to Britain's air defence and they often bombed non-Fighter Command airfields.
There is no doubt that the biggest error the Germans made was their premature assumption that Fighter Command had been essentially wiped out as an effective force and their subsequent switch from bombing Fighter Command related targets to London and other British cities.
Eric Mc said:
What is interesting is how the US were persuaded to take on as great a role in defeating Germany as they were Japsn. Even after 7 December, there was not a unanimous opinion in the US that they had to fight Germany. After all, a goodly number of US citizens were 1st or 2nd generation Germans.
Hitler helped things along by actually declaring war on the US (which was rather stupid) and Winston Churchill did a very good job in convincing Roosevelt that Germany was at least as important a target as Japan.
i think US public opinion was turning at the time. if memory serves me correctly, the US public were totally against getting involved at the outset of war, however, because we (the limeys) were holding out for so long it gradually changed the US public opinion that they needed to get involved.
tinman0 said:
i think US public opinion was turning at the time. if memory serves me correctly, the US public were totally against getting involved at the outset of war, however, because we (the limeys) were holding out for so long it gradually changed the US public opinion that they needed to get involved.
One reason I dislike the current wave of anti-Americanism sweeping Europe and GB is that if we ever need their help again, they might tell us to bog off. And frankly, I wouldn't blame them. I don't know how many American servicemen left their homes to die trying to free Europe - it must be hundreds of thousands - but I can't imagine Europeans doing the same if the situation was reversed.
simpo two said:
If I was a computer programmer, I'd like to run a mathmatical model of WW2 without Pearl Harbor, ie without US in the war, and see what happens...
Then do the same thing but this time without Hitler taking on Russia. The amount of troups and resourses he used on the eastern front are staggering. He made a big mistake.
It might have been a mistake but it was inevitable. It was the whole purpose behind Hitler's decision to take Germany to war. The invasions of the countries west of Germany and the attacks on Britain were all "side shows" with a view to securing his western flanks prior to the big push east.
As Hitler did on lots of occasions, even though he had not quite achieved what he had originally set out to do, he still took a gamble and proeeded. On this occasion, the gamble failed.
As Hitler did on lots of occasions, even though he had not quite achieved what he had originally set out to do, he still took a gamble and proeeded. On this occasion, the gamble failed.
Wacky Racer said:
Of course the Russkies also had the finest
Not so sure about finest, but certainly easy to mass produce and fill in for the inevitable attrition when coming up against the various Panzers of the Third Reich.
A steady supply of replacement Shermans on the other front helped as well.
No I think I'd go along with Wacky - T34 better than the Tiger series. 1 - more reliable. 2 - faster. 3 - very well armoured. 4 - a reasonably good gun. Finally - cheap and easy to build in vast numbers, a factor even more important than technical competence and underlined by the fact that Sherman was "successful" in the west. The Sherman was technically crap, but there were infinate numbers available.
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