Stud wall - load bearing or partially load bearing?
Discussion
Any builders or engineers on here who could offer a bit of advice?
I'm about to start smashing a stud wall out between 2 bedrooms, it runs across the joists. There is no wall underneath it so I always assumed it couldn't be load-bearing so there would be no problem taking it out. But the plasterer I had in at the weekend said that there were such things as 'partial load bearing stud walls'. This has concerned me a bit, as the wall seems to have gone in at about the same time as the loft conversion upstairs. Again, I'd be surprised if it was carrying the load or any of it from up there, as underneath the wall is the middle of the living room - ie a blank space. Are there any clues we could look at, like the thickness of the struts, or how far apart they are, or any reinforcing to the joists underneath (unlikely as they run at 90 degrees to the floor joists.
Ideally, I know we should get a surveyor in, but my hunch was that with nothing underneath it, it couldn't be holding anything up, do you think I am just getting worried over nothing, or are there any obvious signs that could point to a warning that there is some load in this structure?
I'm about to start smashing a stud wall out between 2 bedrooms, it runs across the joists. There is no wall underneath it so I always assumed it couldn't be load-bearing so there would be no problem taking it out. But the plasterer I had in at the weekend said that there were such things as 'partial load bearing stud walls'. This has concerned me a bit, as the wall seems to have gone in at about the same time as the loft conversion upstairs. Again, I'd be surprised if it was carrying the load or any of it from up there, as underneath the wall is the middle of the living room - ie a blank space. Are there any clues we could look at, like the thickness of the struts, or how far apart they are, or any reinforcing to the joists underneath (unlikely as they run at 90 degrees to the floor joists.
Ideally, I know we should get a surveyor in, but my hunch was that with nothing underneath it, it couldn't be holding anything up, do you think I am just getting worried over nothing, or are there any obvious signs that could point to a warning that there is some load in this structure?
But it could be there as a brace for the loft conversion above and it's location might help spread the load to towards the edges where presumably load bearing walls are located on the floor below?
Best just knock the fecker out and see if the ceiling comes down. That way you'll know whether it was load bearing or not....
Best just knock the fecker out and see if the ceiling comes down. That way you'll know whether it was load bearing or not....
that is my fear - so it is engineer time after all. Dammit, he had better have good news. Presumably if it is partially load bearing, we'd have to strengthen the structure upstairs, which isn't something we had wanted to do - but as you say, its too big a risk if you don't have the nouse to work it out yourself.
I just assumed that if there was no wall underneath it, it couldn't be load-bearing, seems that was an assumption too far.
I just assumed that if there was no wall underneath it, it couldn't be load-bearing, seems that was an assumption too far.
On stud partitions you can just take the plasterboard off to see what is underneath. That should tell you if it is loadbearing or not without actually taking away any of the support should it turn out to be required.
If it is loadbearing I would expect to see some kind of "A" frame arrangements with diagonal struts running from top centre to bottom corners to transfer load from the top to the sides.
Removal of the skin will also show what is underneath. If it is in any way load bearing then it should have an RSJ under it.
It's always possible that it should have been load bearing and isn't but that would need an architect or engineer to look at it.
If it is loadbearing I would expect to see some kind of "A" frame arrangements with diagonal struts running from top centre to bottom corners to transfer load from the top to the sides.
Removal of the skin will also show what is underneath. If it is in any way load bearing then it should have an RSJ under it.
It's always possible that it should have been load bearing and isn't but that would need an architect or engineer to look at it.
Have you looked aove the partition wall, i'e from the room above? Lift the boards if you can, and see if any roof joists are resting on the wall. Seems strange to me and it is unlikely it is transferring any loads to any load bearing walls.
Can you tell how far aprt the studs are by knocking on the wall/removing a small bit of plasterboard? Sounds extremely unusual to me.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. The only thing the stud wall probably does, is to take the "spring" out of the floor above.
Worse case scenario will be to bolt a couple of 7"x2" together and fix them to the ceiling after you take the wall out. Not that big a problem.
An RSJ won't be required as it's not load bearing.
Worse case scenario will be to bolt a couple of 7"x2" together and fix them to the ceiling after you take the wall out. Not that big a problem.
An RSJ won't be required as it's not load bearing.
gtr-gaz said:
probably
That's a cover all.
gtr-gaz said:
Worse case scenario
is more like one of the orthagonal walls buckling due to the removal of lateral restraint and then collapsing with a few deaths thrown in.
IMHO it's worth getting someone to check it properly instead of guessing over the internet.
there is no a-frame, just 'standard' stud wall construction and it is nailed straight onto the floorboards. Not sure about the ceiling, but I guess if it just nailed through the plaster ceiling, that would be indication enough that it is not even partially load bearing, as you wouldn't want a layer of plasterboard in the structure, so maybe if I hack a bit more off and investigate there - if it extends above the ceiling, I'll be more worried
lifted a floorboard in the door opening in the stud wall last night - the stud wall isn't even built on a joist, or any 'outrigger' from a joist, so basically it is only the floorboards taking the weight of the wall, so I think it is a fair assumption that this wall is not loadbearing, as if it was, I'm sure we would have known about it by now (as the wall and roof would all be sitting in a heap together with the living room ceiling!
Decide wether or not after any strucutral damage to your or any adjoining property what you insurance company will say. As a qualified Civil Engineer I paid £100 pounds to a structural engineer with imdemnity insurance to write a report saying a wall that I was 100% positive wasn't load bearing wasn't load bearing. It just wasn't worth the greif from the old biddy downstairs or building control.
Just to say your wall doesn't appear to be LB from your comments.
Just to say your wall doesn't appear to be LB from your comments.
ALawson said:
Decide wether or not after any strucutral damage to your or any adjoining property what you insurance company will say. As a qualified Civil Engineer I paid £100 pounds to a structural engineer with imdemnity insurance to write a report saying a wall that I was 100% positive wasn't load bearing wasn't load bearing. It just wasn't worth the greif from the old biddy downstairs or building control.
Just to say your wall doesn't appear to be LB from your comments.
Yes, this is by far the best couse of action IMHO. Remember that it isn't just the load bearing/non-load bearing issue, the bracing requirement is potentially much more important.
but to do any bracing (as it doesn't contain A-frames) it would surely have to be tied into the outside walls of the property rather better than just a couple of screws through the plaster into the walls surely (and only one of the walls it butts up to is external). Together with the fact that is screwed through the pre-existing plaster ceiling and isn't even sitting on a joist, let-alone a reinforced one or a beam, is surely enough to conclude that is is just a bunch of wood and plasterboard separating two rooms?
Whilst I can appreciate you always have to be sure, I'm just going to get a surveying mate to give it the quick once over, but ultimately I wanted to do this work since I bought the house, so unless he is concerned, it is coming down
Whilst I can appreciate you always have to be sure, I'm just going to get a surveying mate to give it the quick once over, but ultimately I wanted to do this work since I bought the house, so unless he is concerned, it is coming down
zebedee said:
Whilst I can appreciate you always have to be sure, I'm just going to get a surveying mate to give it the quick once over, but ultimately I wanted to do this work since I bought the house, so unless he is concerned, it is coming down
That's just what I would do.
Presumably, it's a brick built house of relatively modern construction that we are talking about here and not some sort of wendy house?
A wall is designed to be either load bearing or not load bearing - a black and white answer with no shades of grey.
The real answer lies beneath the wall, where the beams are 2"x10" spaced 16" apart for a normal floor, they will be doubled up either side of the wall with pieces of 2x4 supported by 2x6s then supporting the subfloor then the wall itself.
The issue may then be that though the wall isn't supported below what is above it may have been designed to use that wall without being aware if the deficiencies below the wall.
The only way you are really going to know is to get an answer from a structural 'expert' who can verify that it is up to scratch.
The real answer lies beneath the wall, where the beams are 2"x10" spaced 16" apart for a normal floor, they will be doubled up either side of the wall with pieces of 2x4 supported by 2x6s then supporting the subfloor then the wall itself.
The issue may then be that though the wall isn't supported below what is above it may have been designed to use that wall without being aware if the deficiencies below the wall.
The only way you are really going to know is to get an answer from a structural 'expert' who can verify that it is up to scratch.
Ah 1890 build...that could alter things. timber was used as a load bearing material in those days, over doors, windows.
My daughter and boyfriend bought an old 2 bed cottage a couple of years ago which was built about that time. The previous owners decided to open up the staircase by removing the stud wall on one side. They did not realise that it was holding up the floor above. It was rather springy to say the least and was bowed in the middle by about 50mm!! We have since had to put a steel in take the weight.
My daughter and boyfriend bought an old 2 bed cottage a couple of years ago which was built about that time. The previous owners decided to open up the staircase by removing the stud wall on one side. They did not realise that it was holding up the floor above. It was rather springy to say the least and was bowed in the middle by about 50mm!! We have since had to put a steel in take the weight.
Gassing Station | The Pie & Piston Archive | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff