BMW E46 M3 Engine Failure Archive
Discussion
If you read the link to the BMW engine problems it appears that the BMW policy for the first year or so was to blame the customers for over revving and not running the cars in properly. How does that differ from TVRs response. Doesn't sound like they dealt with it very well at all initially 
bjwoods said:
As, I'm afraid i know of personally of one tuscan owner (2002), where the owner IS trying to sell/pass it on to an unsuspecting punter, knowing full where his engine is on the way out, Tvr dealers/specialist have confirmed this, so it just sits on his drive waiting test drives. 
Don't you feel a bit aukward about that morally?
he is NOT a friend, just an aquantaince, and what can you do?
Except perhaps post on here, buyer beware, to the obviou annoyance of tuscan owners with new cars (but they are all covered by good 3 year warranties, so i don'y know why 'some' feel so knowledgabe about older, non warrantied cars in private hands.
ie big difference between buying an 02 griff vs a 92 griff, as well
B
Except perhaps post on here, buyer beware, to the obviou annoyance of tuscan owners with new cars (but they are all covered by good 3 year warranties, so i don'y know why 'some' feel so knowledgabe about older, non warrantied cars in private hands.
ie big difference between buying an 02 griff vs a 92 griff, as well
B
stone said:
If you read the link to the BMW engine problems it appears that the BMW policy for the first year or so was to blame the customers for over revving and not running the cars in properly. How does that differ from TVRs response. Doesn't sound like they dealt with it very well at all initially
Good point-it seems that neither company were genuinely alert to the mistakes in manufacture and component quality untill the volume of complaints made the conclusion inevitable.Human nature I suppose.As recorded in this forum Porche have had engine problems as well. It suggests to me that TVR are no better or worse in terms of manufature but could help themselves on the communication front.
justinp1 said:
My 2000 Tuscan had a 'good will' rebuild in Jan 2003. (2.5 years old and 10000 miles)
Work was carried out by TVR Power and was charged £2500.
No problems since, thank God. (now upto 25000 miles).
My paper work lists the engine warranty as 1 year.
I thought so. I had a horrible feeling that I was losing my mind as people were saying I was making up rubbish...
Justin,
I spoke with a well respected dealer to obtain my information (and one that’s been around for more than 5 minutes). TVR paperwork is not something I would hang my hat on.
I stand by what my original response to your posting because I believe very strongly that your post in reference to TVR’s attitude to rebuild out of warranty misrepresented the actual situation at the time. My second posting on the matter was possibly more aggressive than it should have been and I apologise for the tone and inference.
John
BMW are obviously struggling to deal with the cost of problems on the M3 and M5s though, hence the recent doubling in annual warranty renewal cost to £2k, and ceasing to cover cars over 100k miles. Porsche initially refused to cover the RMS issues on their warranty but have had to change their stance due to volumes of failures.
I thought the original warranty on Tuscans was 24 months on the engine, 12 months rest of vehicle, with the S models getting 24 months engine and vehicle. Post rebuild warranties were normally 6 months IIRC.
My July 2000 had 2 rebuilds, 1 inside the warranty period and then another just outside in late '02. Both were done totally FOC and the second included a heavily discounted new clutch as a goodwill gesture.
I thought the original warranty on Tuscans was 24 months on the engine, 12 months rest of vehicle, with the S models getting 24 months engine and vehicle. Post rebuild warranties were normally 6 months IIRC.
My July 2000 had 2 rebuilds, 1 inside the warranty period and then another just outside in late '02. Both were done totally FOC and the second included a heavily discounted new clutch as a goodwill gesture.
basil brush said:
...My July 2000 had 2 rebuilds, 1 inside the warranty period and then another just outside in late '02. Both were done totally FOC and the second included a heavily discounted new clutch as a goodwill gesture.
Informative post. What I dont understand is why the attitude changed around over time, and seemed to change from car to car!?
I realise that the attitude of the customer may have something to do with it, but it just seems more than that?
Similarly, if they were doing free of charge rebuild work out of warranty they would have been far better publicising that fact so that current and potential customers could benefit of for the information. Still dont understand why some rebuilds were FOC, some were at half cost and some were at full cost!?
justinp1 said:
...My July 2000 had 2 rebuilds, 1 inside the warranty period and then another just outside in late '02. Both were done totally FOC and the second included a heavily discounted new clutch as a goodwill gesture.
What I dont understand is why the attitude changed around over time, and seemed to change from car to car!?
Like I asked on P1 - how many original owners of cars have had to pay for rebuilds?
Is this thread similar to those ones where all those none TVR Speed 6 owners give their sage like advice about the 'issues' with the Speed 6?
There is no question that E46 M3 owners were worried about the early batch of engine failiures, I know that well, as I was (and still am) one of them. The failiure archive was a constant point of reference for many of us, but there is a very clear reason for the vast majority of those early failures, well documented if people wish to read about it. There have also been 3 or 4 recalls to rectify other suspected problems, most of which were precautions, but something a major car manufacturer is able to afford to do. My first E46 M3 is currently at around 120,000 miles, is used for track days and has had no engine issues, but then why would it as its a June02 car and the engine issues highlighted in the engine failure website do not effect June02 cars, though it has had 2 recalls since then, all under warranty and all at no cost, though not under my ownership anymore.
My current M3 is an April 04 car and has not been effected by engine recalls and is running sweet and well at 30K. I do not ever concern myself with engine issues today as it WILL be sorted by BMW should it go bang, and I am pretty confident it wont. It may be of interest, though is of little relevence, that I am also a TVR owner, having run a Griff 500, and both cars are very different.
The M3 is a mass produced performance saloon from one of the worlds richest car manufacturers and a TVR, in any of its forms is not. To compare BMW's approach to the issues around the M3 and TVR's approach to those around the Speed 6 is of little value. TVR has neither the resources or the same type of owners, in the main, that drive their cars. TVR owners are a hardy bunch, will put up with owning a TVR and its little foibles where as your average BMW owner wont.
The real problem for TVR is that people who buy M3's and M5's are often the same type of people who buy TVR's, and if the perception of their cars is they go bang all the time they will never be succesful in the numbers they need to make they profit they need to support their cars to the same extent as BMW.
BMW did play stupid games, mostly in the US with a few owners early days of the problems, but in the UK it was a no quible replacement unless their was obvious proof of abuse (such as a chip mod). The only thing BMW is ever worried about is damage to the brand, which is why its warranties are so strong and why its owners won't put up with the challenges of owning some TVR's. I adore TVR's, its why I owned them and why I still lust after a Sag, having driven it at length (Peter Smith Cars if your wondering) but their is still that risk that it wont support me for 30K miles per year and its why I wont take the risk. It may only be a perception, but a perception that is yet to be cleary shown as totally tosh.
Long live TVR, performance motoring needs them. Just please get the quality right and deal with the perception and brand issues you face then people like me who SO want another will flock to you. And by people like me I mean those who want to use their high performance car day after day on real journies of long distance, not 10K per year like most.
>> Edited by housemaster on Saturday 21st January 15:06
There is no question that E46 M3 owners were worried about the early batch of engine failiures, I know that well, as I was (and still am) one of them. The failiure archive was a constant point of reference for many of us, but there is a very clear reason for the vast majority of those early failures, well documented if people wish to read about it. There have also been 3 or 4 recalls to rectify other suspected problems, most of which were precautions, but something a major car manufacturer is able to afford to do. My first E46 M3 is currently at around 120,000 miles, is used for track days and has had no engine issues, but then why would it as its a June02 car and the engine issues highlighted in the engine failure website do not effect June02 cars, though it has had 2 recalls since then, all under warranty and all at no cost, though not under my ownership anymore.
My current M3 is an April 04 car and has not been effected by engine recalls and is running sweet and well at 30K. I do not ever concern myself with engine issues today as it WILL be sorted by BMW should it go bang, and I am pretty confident it wont. It may be of interest, though is of little relevence, that I am also a TVR owner, having run a Griff 500, and both cars are very different.
The M3 is a mass produced performance saloon from one of the worlds richest car manufacturers and a TVR, in any of its forms is not. To compare BMW's approach to the issues around the M3 and TVR's approach to those around the Speed 6 is of little value. TVR has neither the resources or the same type of owners, in the main, that drive their cars. TVR owners are a hardy bunch, will put up with owning a TVR and its little foibles where as your average BMW owner wont.
The real problem for TVR is that people who buy M3's and M5's are often the same type of people who buy TVR's, and if the perception of their cars is they go bang all the time they will never be succesful in the numbers they need to make they profit they need to support their cars to the same extent as BMW.
BMW did play stupid games, mostly in the US with a few owners early days of the problems, but in the UK it was a no quible replacement unless their was obvious proof of abuse (such as a chip mod). The only thing BMW is ever worried about is damage to the brand, which is why its warranties are so strong and why its owners won't put up with the challenges of owning some TVR's. I adore TVR's, its why I owned them and why I still lust after a Sag, having driven it at length (Peter Smith Cars if your wondering) but their is still that risk that it wont support me for 30K miles per year and its why I wont take the risk. It may only be a perception, but a perception that is yet to be cleary shown as totally tosh.
Long live TVR, performance motoring needs them. Just please get the quality right and deal with the perception and brand issues you face then people like me who SO want another will flock to you. And by people like me I mean those who want to use their high performance car day after day on real journies of long distance, not 10K per year like most.
>> Edited by housemaster on Saturday 21st January 15:06
housemaster said:
Said a lot of very well thought out stuff with which I agree
>> Edited by housemaster on Saturday 21st January 15:06
....to which all I would want to add is 3 year warranty extendible to many more years ( £1,500 a year I think)including wear and tear if you pay an additional £700 a year...... and I average 12k per year everyday use mostly in London and fairly frequent trips to Liverpool,Nottingham,Darwen,and middle of France.
>> Edited by sideways mostly on Saturday 21st January 17:16
justinp1 said:
I feel that the arguments now revolve around new owners quite rightly pointing out that the new Tuscan with a three year warranty is a cracking buy. The 'burned' owners recount what has happened to them. The potential owners wonder whether they should risk it. Then we all argue about what actually imporved in the SP6 and if it makes a difference, whether someone else rebuilds them better etc.
Do you not feel its up to the manufacturer to defend its cars rather than its owners?
Adding a 3 year warranty is a start, no question, but don't you think if TVR came out with an acknowledgement and clear and concise explanation of those 'early' problems, together with a clear and concise list of the actions they had undertaken to rectify them, they may well garner the confidence of prospective owners who are not currently 'risking' a TVR?
Lack of communication or acknowledgement of the problems experienced by many owners simply leads to the perception many have today and the lack of sales that perception brings. To miss that is to miss the fundemental point around the whole Speed 6 discussion. The fact you have your own section demonstrates its a big point for discussion and debate, TVR should answer it, put it to bed and move on if you ask me.
The fact they have yet to clearly answer the questions being asked (those being why and whats changed in their simplist form) is why people still contine to question its sorted, and no matter how much owners and fans of the brand argue it ain't so, the damage will continue to impact on the brand. If I want to see how the E46 M3 engine has changed I can, its documented, clear and obvious. Everyone makes mistakes or gets it wrong. Its how they put it right and how they regain confidence that allows them to live or die. Sort your image out TVR, the Russian money will dry up if no one buys your cars and now Peter Wheeler has left there are no excuses for poor communication in this modern and highly competive world. Times have changed...
Well put - and I think you are right that communication has not helped TVR at all.
I think Ted opened up this thread after a lot of requests from happy TVR owners who were getting tee'd of with the argument over the speed six spoiling the other threads.Matbe one day it will end up being a technical forum but as its such a political topic and open to abuse to by people with axes to grind that isn't going to happen soon. IMHO
I think Ted opened up this thread after a lot of requests from happy TVR owners who were getting tee'd of with the argument over the speed six spoiling the other threads.Matbe one day it will end up being a technical forum but as its such a political topic and open to abuse to by people with axes to grind that isn't going to happen soon. IMHO
unrepentant said:
Like I asked on P1 - how many original owners of cars have had to pay for rebuilds?
Sorry, in case my earlier post was confusing. To clarify, the original owner of my 2000 Tuscan 4.0 (not 's') had to contribute £2500 (inc VAT) towards the cars first (and only) rebuild at 2.5 years and 10000 miles. This, at the time, (Jan 03) was called a 'good will' rebuild and he was told that this was roughly half price. He believed that it was 1.5 years out of warranty and therfore represented a good deal.
basil brush said:
My July 2000 had 2 rebuilds, 1 inside the warranty period and then another just outside in late '02. Both were done totally FOC and the second included a heavily discounted new clutch as a goodwill gesture.
This seems to show that they were quoting different prices to different people probably depending on who was shouting the loudest. The problem to my mind is that the policy has never been consistant. Whether you are in the 'design flaw they should put it right' camp or the 'its a cheap very fast car with a stressed race engine thats bound to go wrong at some point' camp would have made no difference if they had treated every owner the same. IMHO.
unrepentant said:
BUT, self acknowledged design flaw,
TVR have admitted to a design flaw? That's news to me. (And to them I expect).
Well tvr1 said as much
And speak to any dealer, and they say they are better now, 2002 was the worst year,etc,etc,etc.
So yes, it is acknowledged.
B
Tuska said:
My July 2000 had 2 rebuilds, 1 inside the warranty period and then another just outside in late '02. Both were done totally FOC and the second included a heavily discounted new clutch as a goodwill gesture.
This seems to show that they were quoting different prices to different people probably depending on who was shouting the loudest. The problem to my mind is that the policy has never been consistant. Whether you are in the 'design flaw they should put it right' camp or the 'its a cheap very fast car with a stressed race engine thats bound to go wrong at some point' camp would have made no difference if they had treated every owner the same. IMHO.
I think it was late '02 when they stopped doing totally FOC rebuilds (except for repeat customers) and started doing the so-called goodwill rebuilds at around £2.5k a go. This was then stopped soon after the change of ownership took place.
Re the fact that TVR have not made an announcement on the causes of failures and the subsequent changes, how can they? If they made such a statement it would be an admission that an inherent design flaw existed and anyone who had paid for a rebuild would be immediately speaking to a solicitor. It would be the more expensive than if they'd done a proper recall.
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