Is overtaking a lost art?
Discussion
911hope said:
Why should even be possible, if the overtake was done properly, where it was properly planned and the acceleration was done prior to passing the overtake?
Hmm, depending what you mean by that,that’s debatable. You usually want to be offside with a good view before you commit to the overtake and accelerate, not trying to get a run up.Like most of these;
https://youtu.be/iilcpg9RQe4
otolith said:
Hmm, depending what you mean by that,that’s debatable. You usually want to be offside with a good view before you commit to the overtake and accelerate, not trying to get a run up.
Like most of these;
https://youtu.be/iilcpg9RQe4
Of course you are right, I agree. Not charge at the back of the overtakee, accelerate from a good distance with clear sightlineLike most of these;
https://youtu.be/iilcpg9RQe4
Exact example in this video.
Sighted, good gap between him and the overtakee. Pulled out, accelerated and was much faster by the the time the actual pass was made.
Had the overtakee decided to accelerate, 2 cases are possible.
Done early as the overtakee pulled out...abort the overtake. The space exists to pull back in.
Done late as he passed, too late to create a problem as the speed differential too great.
Edited by 911hope on Tuesday 15th November 09:50
I have been to court for speeding recently - 2 years ago I think or maybe 3. I was found to be innocent.
Anyway the point is this. If you do end up in court and you need to explain your actions there is no good reason for executing an overtake. All roads lead to you wanting to go quicker than someone else which is basically frowned upon and implies guilt. It does not matter how you phrase it. The other road user was going too slow or you wanted to go quicker etc etc etc. There is no easy way to say this without implied guilt. No one likes speed. It is unacceptable these days. We now have queues of people driving at fixed 70mph on motorways and using which ever lane they choose. Cars are so much safer than they used to be 30 years ago. Travelling at 70mph today in a 30 year old Fiat Panda is definitely risking your life. Travelling at 70mph in a modern car is definitely not.
Anyway the point is this. If you do end up in court and you need to explain your actions there is no good reason for executing an overtake. All roads lead to you wanting to go quicker than someone else which is basically frowned upon and implies guilt. It does not matter how you phrase it. The other road user was going too slow or you wanted to go quicker etc etc etc. There is no easy way to say this without implied guilt. No one likes speed. It is unacceptable these days. We now have queues of people driving at fixed 70mph on motorways and using which ever lane they choose. Cars are so much safer than they used to be 30 years ago. Travelling at 70mph today in a 30 year old Fiat Panda is definitely risking your life. Travelling at 70mph in a modern car is definitely not.
waremark said:
How does knowing the roads well help safe overtaking?
imagine following a car or few on a windy road, the lead car being unsure/slow/useless. If I know there's no safe overtakes coming up I'll join the train. however, if I know there's a decent straight in a couple of bends time, especially after a few tighter turns, I can plan an overtake in advance, rather than waiting for the straight and making a decision. For example: hang back a bit, then on the last bend accelerate to get decent speed through the corner so my exit is 5-10-20mph more than their exit speed, emerge from the bend, asses the straight and I'm past, the acceleration already having been done so less time exposed on wrong side of the road.
I do or dont overtake depending on many factors. If I have 5 mins of my journey left why bother chances are both me and the car I overtake will arrive within seconds of each other. If the car is a couple of mph under the limit I just happily follow, if its well under then sure I will look for an overtake.
Overtaking is not an art I would say, unless you are on a track. Just check a few sensible things and overtake. However be aware that even the best driver over taking can still have an accident not cause by their own actions, you cant account for other things out there out of your control, all you can do is minimise the risk with your own actions. But definitely the risk to yourself increases if you overtake, you are on the other side of the road usually well above the speed limit for that road, it has to be worth the risk to overtake hence my view above...
Overtaking is not an art I would say, unless you are on a track. Just check a few sensible things and overtake. However be aware that even the best driver over taking can still have an accident not cause by their own actions, you cant account for other things out there out of your control, all you can do is minimise the risk with your own actions. But definitely the risk to yourself increases if you overtake, you are on the other side of the road usually well above the speed limit for that road, it has to be worth the risk to overtake hence my view above...
RedAndy said:
waremark said:
How does knowing the roads well help safe overtaking?
imagine following a car or few on a windy road, the lead car being unsure/slow/useless. If I know there's no safe overtakes coming up I'll join the train. however, if I know there's a decent straight in a couple of bends time, especially after a few tighter turns, I can plan an overtake in advance, rather than waiting for the straight and making a decision. For example: hang back a bit, then on the last bend accelerate to get decent speed through the corner so my exit is 5-10-20mph more than their exit speed, emerge from the bend, asses the straight and I'm past, the acceleration already having been done so less time exposed on wrong side of the road.
911hope said:
This is subject that has many anecdotes on behaviour that I have never seen.
People seeking to prevent an overtake, by speeding up! I have never experienced this in decades of driving. So why do some say it often happens?
I have to say I agree with most of this, it does happen but not nearly as common as people like to make out. I suspect this is partly psychological ("this overtake isn't as safe as I thought it was, so it must be because they're speeding up"). However, the most usual spot for an overtake would be exiting a bend and onto a straight...in other words, exactly when most people would naturally speed up, it's to be expected, not necessarily trying to shut out the overtake.People seeking to prevent an overtake, by speeding up! I have never experienced this in decades of driving. So why do some say it often happens?
My theory is that there is a group of drivers that either like having a clear view in front of them with no traffic, or simply like holding up cars, I think that one can be explained away as not knowing the speed limit or not having the confidence to drive at that limit, you have to remember speed limits are not just there for safety, they have been approved by all sorts of people for that speed limit at that location, dependent on accidents, issues etc. A NSA sign is not a target, but there is no reason why most modern cars for decades can drive at that speed in most areas of a NSA road, the road has been approved as safe to drive on that speed. However that does not mean most drivers believe this is possible. A grey area clearly and also not one you can prove.
But this accelerating while being passed is a thing, it happens a lot, and is a sort of speed limit vigilante type deal. A lot of people do it, and hate being passed, as they either think they are or want to be the HOLY protector of speed limits, you know what I mean, no matter where you pass them, it is likely if you pass them safely, you might have been closer to them than they liked at various times, hence this attitude. Some people are just like that.
if someone is clearly wanting to overtake me, I will let them past when I can, not speed up if they overtake, then flash and wave fingers at them as if they have done something horribly wrong.
But this accelerating while being passed is a thing, it happens a lot, and is a sort of speed limit vigilante type deal. A lot of people do it, and hate being passed, as they either think they are or want to be the HOLY protector of speed limits, you know what I mean, no matter where you pass them, it is likely if you pass them safely, you might have been closer to them than they liked at various times, hence this attitude. Some people are just like that.
if someone is clearly wanting to overtake me, I will let them past when I can, not speed up if they overtake, then flash and wave fingers at them as if they have done something horribly wrong.
RedAndy said:
waremark said:
How does knowing the roads well help safe overtaking?
imagine following a car or few on a windy road, the lead car being unsure/slow/useless. If I know there's no safe overtakes coming up I'll join the train. however, if I know there's a decent straight in a couple of bends time, especially after a few tighter turns, I can plan an overtake in advance, rather than waiting for the straight and making a decision. For example: hang back a bit, then on the last bend accelerate to get decent speed through the corner so my exit is 5-10-20mph more than their exit speed, emerge from the bend, asses the straight and I'm past, the acceleration already having been done so less time exposed on wrong side of the road.
This I used to have to do, a LOT, in the mid 1980s when I first started doing a lot more miles. The M40 hadn't even been built then.
whimsical ninja said:
911hope said:
This is subject that has many anecdotes on behaviour that I have never seen.
People seeking to prevent an overtake, by speeding up! I have never experienced this in decades of driving. So why do some say it often happens?
I have to say I agree with most of this, it does happen but not nearly as common as people like to make out. I suspect this is partly psychological ("this overtake isn't as safe as I thought it was, so it must be because they're speeding up"). However, the most usual spot for an overtake would be exiting a bend and onto a straight...in other words, exactly when most people would naturally speed up, it's to be expected, not necessarily trying to shut out the overtake.People seeking to prevent an overtake, by speeding up! I have never experienced this in decades of driving. So why do some say it often happens?
I wonder if it explains why only some people perceive it happening so often!
911hope said:
whimsical ninja said:
911hope said:
This is subject that has many anecdotes on behaviour that I have never seen.
People seeking to prevent an overtake, by speeding up! I have never experienced this in decades of driving. So why do some say it often happens?
I have to say I agree with most of this, it does happen but not nearly as common as people like to make out. I suspect this is partly psychological ("this overtake isn't as safe as I thought it was, so it must be because they're speeding up"). However, the most usual spot for an overtake would be exiting a bend and onto a straight...in other words, exactly when most people would naturally speed up, it's to be expected, not necessarily trying to shut out the overtake.People seeking to prevent an overtake, by speeding up! I have never experienced this in decades of driving. So why do some say it often happens?
I wonder if it explains why only some people perceive it happening so often!
Pica-Pica said:
Yes, I have stuck to a 30 limits, then having tailgated me, some people attempt to overtake, just when I am speeding up.
context is everything, i don't think anyone is referring to trying to overtake someone coming out of a 30/40 into NSL. The cases have been people bumbling along 10-20 mph under on NSL roads for long stretches of road/timeI think we have all been in your position where adhering to the 30/40 limit some throbber up our tail pushing us, and we then accelerate out of the limit once it's gone up, and invariably leave said tailgater in the distance as they do 40 everywhere, till they catch up speeding in the next village. I suspect a correlation with those who take umbrage at overtakes!
To another point that some try to excuse the behavior by, the issue highlighted on this thread is also not about people accelerating due to road layout being more conducive, thats nonsense and willful deflection.
The scenario of someone speeding up is experienced during an overtake as the overtakee registers what's happening, they then speed up either out of spite, recklessness, or occasionally being woken from their day dream - regardless a massively dangerous action.
It makes no sense to excuse that behavior due the 'road straightening' 'coming out of bends' etc thus safer for them to increase their speed, as they are not speeding up until they are aware of being overtaken, only at that point, and the overtaker would not execute the overtake before it was possible to, so would not be in a situation where they are suddenly parallel with their intended target and the overtakee just coincidentally speeds up due to the road layout improving...nonsense!
theplayingmantis said:
context is everything, i don't think anyone is referring to trying to overtake someone coming out of a 30/40 into NSL. The cases have been people bumbling along 10-20 mph under on NSL roads for long stretches of road/time
I think we have all been in your position where adhering to the 30/40 limit some throbber up our tail pushing us, and we then accelerate out of the limit once it's gone up, and invariably leave said tailgater in the distance as they do 40 everywhere, till they catch up speeding in the next village. I suspect a correlation with those who take umbrage at overtakes!
To another point that some try to excuse the behavior by, the issue highlighted on this thread is also not about people accelerating due to road layout being more conducive, thats nonsense and willful deflection.
The scenario of someone speeding up is experienced during an overtake as the overtakee registers what's happening, they then speed up either out of spite, recklessness, or occasionally being woken from their day dream - regardless a massively dangerous action.
It makes no sense to excuse that behavior due the 'road straightening' 'coming out of bends' etc thus safer for them to increase their speed, as they are not speeding up until they are aware of being overtaken, only at that point, and the overtaker would not execute the overtake before it was possible to, so would not be in a situation where they are suddenly parallel with their intended target and the overtakee just coincidentally speeds up due to the road layout improving...nonsense!
How is it possible for someone to speed up and hamper an overtake, if the cars are already parallel. You, executing the planned and well executed overtake should have been accelerating for a second or two already and should have about 10 m/s speed differential, so should be parallel for less than a second.I think we have all been in your position where adhering to the 30/40 limit some throbber up our tail pushing us, and we then accelerate out of the limit once it's gone up, and invariably leave said tailgater in the distance as they do 40 everywhere, till they catch up speeding in the next village. I suspect a correlation with those who take umbrage at overtakes!
To another point that some try to excuse the behavior by, the issue highlighted on this thread is also not about people accelerating due to road layout being more conducive, thats nonsense and willful deflection.
The scenario of someone speeding up is experienced during an overtake as the overtakee registers what's happening, they then speed up either out of spite, recklessness, or occasionally being woken from their day dream - regardless a massively dangerous action.
It makes no sense to excuse that behavior due the 'road straightening' 'coming out of bends' etc thus safer for them to increase their speed, as they are not speeding up until they are aware of being overtaken, only at that point, and the overtaker would not execute the overtake before it was possible to, so would not be in a situation where they are suddenly parallel with their intended target and the overtakee just coincidentally speeds up due to the road layout improving...nonsense!
Unless they have lightning reactions and a significantly faster car, it isn't possible.
911hope said:
How is it possible for someone to speed up and hamper an overtake, if the cars are already parallel. You, executing the planned and well executed overtake should have been accelerating for a second or two already and should have about 10 m/s speed differential, so should be parallel for less than a second.
Unless they have lightning reactions and a significantly faster car, it isn't possible.
Do you actually drive?Unless they have lightning reactions and a significantly faster car, it isn't possible.
Actually please don't answer. I'm not going to engage with you again as you are here for one purpose evidenced in multiple threads, and shame on me for playing your game. Pigeon chess. Have fun with it.
911hope said:
How is it possible for someone to speed up and hamper an overtake, if the cars are already parallel. You, executing the planned and well executed overtake should have been accelerating for a second or two already and should have about 10 m/s speed differential, so should be parallel for less than a second.
Unless they have lightning reactions and a significantly faster car, it isn't possible.
Quite simple, and should be obvious to any petrolhead... Unless they have lightning reactions and a significantly faster car, it isn't possible.
A huge performance deficit on the part of the overtaking car - and an attitude of "yea if you think you've got the power" on the part of the car attempting to be overtaken.
Having (a good few years back) gotten stuck behind a Bentley continental that dithered through a modestly twisty section of road at a good 15-20mph slower than I'd have driven it at that time of the evening... Went to overtake it on the straight despite being in a smallish hatch with <100hp.
No amount of realistic run-up matters with that kind of power delta - if the ATGNI (all the gear, no idea) driver in the Bentley doesn't want to let you past, it's simply not happening... And of course, it didn't.... And of course the modestly twisty section not much further along the road I was (again) held up by driving that can only be described as pathetic.
Most of the time it's simply clearly cars speeding up and making it harder for you to get back over...
And for the sake of the thread, that's more than relevant enough.
Sadly, it's far more common than it should be, too - straight up dangerous driving.
RedAndy said:
imagine following a car or few on a windy road, the lead car being unsure/slow/useless. If I know there's no safe overtakes coming up I'll join the train. however, if I know there's a decent straight in a couple of bends time, especially after a few tighter turns, I can plan an overtake in advance, rather than waiting for the straight and making a decision.
When I am looking for an overtake I plan the overtake whether or not I know the road, ready for any opportunity which may arise, for example closing up on the appoach to a right hand bend with a suitable gear engaged. I aim to be ready for the overtake anywhere there might be an opportunity. I would be wary of having a significant closing speed because I have to be ready for the target vehicle to come upon an obstruction and have to brake hard.LukeBrown66 said:
...... the road has been approved as safe to drive on that speed.
I'm sure you don't mean that an NSL road has been approved as safe to drive at the NSL - NSL just means that the authorities are allowing you to make your own judgement of what is a safe speed within the NSL. Note that most single track country lanes are NSL!The safe speed on an NSL road can be anything between 2 mph and 140 mph or more.
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