A question of good progress

[Big Fat F'er]

Fat Audi 80 said:

BFF - You are wrong. Advanced driving involves breaking the speed limit, that is why it is called advanced.

As discussed to death on here, advanced driving means don't speed. You may wish to break the speed limit. That's your choice. Don't claim the advanced high ground though.

Fat Audi 80 said:

Everyone else - You are wasting your time getting into semantics. The first four pages were great, now it is getting pedantic.

You've extended the discussion, and it's a bit like "I've had the last word, now no-one else say anything". Tsk Tsk, you ought to know better. I was happy to leave the last word with Green. I disagree with him, and he wid me, but that's fine.

Fat Audi 80 said:

FWIW, IMHO , having driven for 15 years and only had two accidents, both over 7 years ago and broken the speed limit every day since I passed my test feel i am qualified to comment. Having recently had some advanced driver training from a Class 1 Police driver I can catagorically (sp) say that advanced driving involves breaking the speed limit where required.

Wow. 15 years. Thats a tremendously long time, and only 2 accidents as well. Well done. Your parents must be so proud of you. Just so it's clear, many on here have driven a LOT longer than you, with NO accidents, and the answer is "so what"!!!

15 years. Ya gotta laugh.

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Tuesday 13th June 17:20

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Tuesday 13th June 17:21

[vonhosen]

Fat Audi 80 said:

BFF - You are wrong. Advanced driving involves breaking the speed limit, that is why it is called advanced.

Advanced driving is about accuracy.
Of the 4 S's Speed is the least important element.

[TripleS]

Fat Audi 80 said:

Thread Summary for those that are getting bogged down.

BFF - You are wrong. Advanced driving involves breaking the speed limit, that is why it is called advanced (Seriously)

Everyone else - You are wasting your time getting into semantics. The first four pages were great, now it is getting pedantic.

FWIW, IMHO , having driven for 15 years and only had two accidents, both over 7 years ago and broken the speed limit every day since I passed my test feel i am qualified to comment. Having recently had some advanced driver training from a Class 1 Police driver I can catagorically (sp) say that advanced driving involves breaking the speed limit where required.



End of

Cheers,

Steve.

Good man Steve. Life's too short to keep getting bogged down in this sort of discussion.

FWIW I don't reckon all these 'advanced drivers' that insist on always obeying all the rules all the time are particularly advanced at all, but it doesn't really matter. They're happy with their position and I'm happy with mine. So long as we all keep out of trouble, who cares? Funny thing is, some of these 'advanced' folk seem to be having more bother than I am.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Big Fat F'er said:

As discussed to death on here, advanced driving means don't speed. You may wish to break the speed limit. That's your choice. Don't claim the advanced high ground though.

Er, respectively:

No it doesn't.
Yes we do.
Yes it is.
We're not doing, and you're not having it either unchallenged.

HTH.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Fat Audi 80]

Big Fat F'er said:

Fat Audi 80 said:

BFF - You are wrong. Advanced driving involves breaking the speed limit, that is why it is called advanced.

As discussed to death on here, advanced driving means don't speed. You may wish to break the speed limit. That's your choice. Don't claim the advanced high ground though.

Fat Audi 80 said:

Everyone else - You are wasting your time getting into semantics. The first four pages were great, now it is getting pedantic.

You've extended the discussion, and it's a bit like "I've had the last word, now no-one else say anything". Tsk Tsk, you ought to know better. I was happy to leave the last word with Green. I disagree with him, and he wid me, but that's fine.

Fat Audi 80 said:

FWIW, IMHO , having driven for 15 years and only had two accidents, both over 7 years ago and broken the speed limit every day since I passed my test feel i am qualified to comment. Having recently had some advanced driver training from a Class 1 Police driver I can catagorically (sp) say that advanced driving involves breaking the speed limit where required.

Wow. 15 years. Thats a tremendously long time, and only 2 accidents as well. Well done. Your parents must be so proud of you. Just so it's clear, many on here have driven a LOT longer than you, with NO accidents, and the answer is "so what"!!!

15 years. Ya gotta laugh.

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Tuesday 13th June 17:20

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Tuesday 13th June 17:21

Fair points ( sort of )

I am not saying I am the greatest driver that ever lived, just giving some background to my views. The point I was making was I believe is perfectly safe to break the speed limit when advanced driving and actually PART of advanced driving!

I disagree that I can't claim to be an advanced driver just because I break the speed limit- that is ridiculous!

Still fast & advanced

Yes my parents are proud of me, but not for my driving - No need to get personal and sarcastic!

(I know I said I wouldn't get involved and that was the end of it but you just had to get personal didn't you)

Cheers,

Steve

Edited by Fat Audi 80 on Wednesday 14th June 11:41

[Big Fat F'er]

TripleS said:

Big Fat F'er said:

As discussed to death on here, advanced driving means don't speed. You may wish to break the speed limit. That's your choice. Don't claim the advanced high ground though.

Er, respectively:

No it doesn't.
Yes we do.
Yes it is.
We're not doing, and you're not having it either unchallenged.

HTH.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Triple - The point I am making is that 'Advanced Driving' (i.e. IAM. ROADA, etc) carries with it a set of rules and personal responsibilities. One of those is that Advanced Drivers dont speed. Its printed in bold on the bottom of one of the sites you frequent. Why do you think it's there. They didn't have to write it, but they did.

Just so that it's clear, let me state that I don't think that every transgression is dangerous. I've never said that. That is why any discussion that tries to link 'absolute safety' to 'breaking the limit' per se is doomed to failure. That is not the issue.

Someone earlier claimed that no Advanced institution can be seen to condone breaking the limit. Well it is even clearer than that. They explicitly state that you shouldn't break the speed limits. If they just wanted to avoid condoning breaking the law, they would avoid mentioning it at all. Or perhaps they would imply it, without being too factual. But ALL of the Advanced groups, and also the Old Bill, state that you should not speed. You choose to ignore that, but it doesn't affect the rules. Your ignorance, deliberate or otherwise, of the Advanced code doesn't change that code.

That is why it is always a moral decision, based on your principles. Yes, it will sometimes be inconvenient for you to obey the law. But if you claim to be Advanced, don't speed, and don't try and argue that it is okay to do so. I agree with your earlier comment when you say you have never claimed to be Advanced. Okay then, thats fine, so this doesn't apply to you.

If you are a formally trained civilian Advanced Driver, you shouldn't break the limit (not PC1, they have different rules). That's not me claiming the advanced high ground. That is the published rules. Go out there and read them. ask the oprganisations for copies. go to meetings and discuss it with them. It won't change your attitude to speeding, but it may just stop you trying to re-write the rules and codes to suit your own driving styles.

[Big Fat F'er]

Fat Audi 80 said:

I am not saying I am the greatest driver that ever lived....

Obviously you're not. Thats TripleS!

Fat Audi 80 said:

.....just giving some background to my views. The point I was making was I believe is perfectly safe to break the speed limit when advanced driving and actually PART of advanced driving!

Depends on your definition of Advanced, and whether you believe Advanced carries responsibilities, even those that may be inconvenient.

Fat Audi 80 said:

I disagree that I can't claim to be an advanced driver just because I break the speed limit- that is ridiculous! !

As above.

Fat Audi 80 said:

Still fast & advanced

Absolutely, no problem with fast.

Fat Audi 80 said:

Yes my parents are proud of me, but not for my driving - No need to get personal and sarcastic!

Course there is. The sarcasm is there to emphasis that 15 years is genuinely not that long. Come on, you know you are big enough to take it.

Fat Audi 80 said:

(I know I said I wouldn't get involved and that was the end of it but you just had to get personal didn't you)

Nay, not personal. Passionate yes, but not personal.

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Wednesday 14th June 12:33

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Wednesday 14th June 12:34

[Fat Audi 80]

Big Fat F'er said:

TripleS said:

Big Fat F'er said:

As discussed to death on here, advanced driving means don't speed. You may wish to break the speed limit. That's your choice. Don't claim the advanced high ground though.

Er, respectively:

No it doesn't.
Yes we do.
Yes it is.
We're not doing, and you're not having it either unchallenged.

HTH.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Triple - The point I am making is that 'Advanced Driving' (i.e. IAM. ROADA, etc) carries with it a set of rules and personal responsibilities. One of those is that Advanced Drivers dont speed. Its printed in bold on the bottom of one of the sites you frequent. Why do you think it's there. They didn't have to write it, but they did.

Just so that it's clear, let me state that I don't think that every transgression is dangerous. I've never said that. That is why any discussion that tries to link 'absolute safety' to 'breaking the limit' per se is doomed to failure. That is not the issue.

Someone earlier claimed that no Advanced institution can be seen to condone breaking the limit. Well it is even clearer than that. They explicitly state that you shouldn't break the speed limits. If they just wanted to avoid condoning breaking the law, they would avoid mentioning it at all. Or perhaps they would imply it, without being too factual. But ALL of the Advanced groups, and also the Old Bill, state that you should not speed. You choose to ignore that, but it doesn't affect the rules. Your ignorance, deliberate or otherwise, of the Advanced code doesn't change that code.

That is why it is always a moral decision, based on your principles. Yes, it will sometimes be inconvenient for you to obey the law. But if you claim to be Advanced, don't speed, and don't try and argue that it is okay to do so. I agree with your earlier comment when you say you have never claimed to be Advanced. Okay then, thats fine, so this doesn't apply to you.

If you are a formally trained civilian Advanced Driver, you shouldn't break the limit (not PC1, they have different rules). That's not me claiming the advanced high ground. That is the published rules. Go out there and read them. ask the oprganisations for copies. go to meetings and discuss it with them. It won't change your attitude to speeding, but it may just stop you trying to re-write the rules and codes to suit your own driving styles.

And just one more thing.

I have had Advanced lessons where I have been "Given full remit to explore speeds above the NSL" (In NSL areas only). So either I didn't have "Advanced Lessons" or you are full of ****!

I won't tell you where or with whom I had said lessons but they were conducted by a qualified and serving class 1 police car and motorcyclist. QED

Cheers,

Steve

[Fat Audi 80]

Big Fat F'er said:

Fat Audi 80 said:

Yes my parents are proud of me, but not for my driving - No need to get personal and sarcastic!

Course there is. The sarcasm is there to emphasis that 15 years is genuinely not that long. Come on, you know you are big enough to take it.

IMO 15 years IS long enough to have a large enough experience of roadcraft and driving to give a valid opinion.
Do I need to do forty years to satisfy your own criteria/
Is Micheal Schumacher not experienced enough at Forumla 1 after 12 - 15 years... FFS (I give up like the others...) BYE!

[Big Fat F'er]

Fat Audi 80 said:

IMO 15 years IS long enough to have a large enough experience of roadcraft and driving to give a valid opinion.

I didn't' say it wasn't. I just pointed out that 15 years is not that long, and an accident rate of 1 every 7.5 years aint anything to be proud of. I know drivers with far less experience than you who are (probably) so far above you they are unbelievable. I know other drivers who have been on the road longer than you've been born (probably) who are so bad they should be banned. 15 years in itself is not that long, and does not support any claims you may make about your skills.

Fat Audi 80 said:

Do I need to do forty years to satisfy your own criteria.

No. You just need long enough to grasp the concept that it isn't time per se that gives you skill. And the maturity to realise that 15 years isn't anything special.

Fat Audi 80 said:

Is Micheal Schumacher not experienced enough at Forumla 1 after 12 - 15 years.

Yes. And your point is. you ain't michael Schumaker. What makes him so qualified to talk about driving is his proven experience. Proven. Not just lengthy. There's a difference.

Fat Audi 80 said:

FFS (I give up like the others...).

That's a shame, 'cos you had some good points worth thinking about and debating. You may not like my style. That's fair enough. I don't like you breaking the law. You stuck to your guns, etc, etc, etc. Evens stevens. Its the difference that makes it worthwhile. so don't take your bat home....FFS

Fat Audi 80 said:

BYE!

See ya.

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Wednesday 14th June 17:25

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Wednesday 14th June 17:26

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Wednesday 14th June 17:26

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Wednesday 14th June 17:27

[7db]

vonhosen said:

Advanced driving is about accuracy.
Of the 4 S's Speed is the least important element.

It's a consequence of the other three. Wish I'd remembered to tell myself that last night!

[vonhosen]

Fat Audi 80 said:

I have had Advanced lessons where I have been "Given full remit to explore speeds above the NSL" (In NSL areas only). So either I didn't have "Advanced Lessons" or you are full of ****!

I won't tell you where or with whom I had said lessons but they were conducted by a qualified and serving class 1 police car and motorcyclist. QED

Cheers,

Steve

Were they qualified to teach you to do that though ?
Why don't you want to say who by or where ?
Is it because you know that it isn't recognised by any advancved driving body that you can ?

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 14th June 19:28

[vonhosen]

7db said:

vonhosen said:

Advanced driving is about accuracy.
Of the 4 S's Speed is the least important element.

It's a consequence of the other three. Wish I'd remembered to tell myself that last night!

Ah but it's the correct speed that is more accurately the consequence of the other three & where not using a lawful exemption that speed should be within posted limits.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 14th June 19:30

[TripleS]

Big Fat F'er said:

Fat Audi 80 said:

I am not saying I am the greatest driver that ever lived....

Obviously you're not. Thats TripleS!

Oh really BFF you are seriously adrift there. I have made no such claims or ever sought to give that impression. I simply do not think in those terms. The whole idea is ridiculous. You have sufficient good grounds on which to criticise me, but please do not represent me.

Best wishes all,
Dave - at best a mediocre driver.

[7db]

vonhosen said:

7db said:

vonhosen said:

Advanced driving is about accuracy.
Of the 4 S's Speed is the least important element.

It's a consequence of the other three. Wish I'd remembered to tell myself that last night!

Ah but it's the correct speed that is more accurately the consequence of the other three & where not using a lawful exemption that speed should be within posted limits.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 14th June 19:30

Quite. Absolutely.

The signage was deficient in places, however, so I may have taken the opportunity to press on a little there where there was no chance of conviction.

[TripleS]

Big Fat F'er said:

Triple - Someone earlier claimed that no Advanced institution can be seen to condone breaking the limit. Well it is even clearer than that. They explicitly state that you shouldn't break the speed limits. If they just wanted to avoid condoning breaking the law, they would avoid mentioning it at all. Or perhaps they would imply it, without being too factual. But ALL of the Advanced groups, and also the Old Bill, state that you should not speed. You choose to ignore that, but it doesn't affect the rules. Your ignorance, deliberate or otherwise, of the Advanced code doesn't change that code.

That is why it is always a moral decision, based on your principles. Yes, it will sometimes be inconvenient for you to obey the law. But if you claim to be Advanced, don't speed, and don't try and argue that it is okay to do so. I agree with your earlier comment when you say you have never claimed to be Advanced. Okay then, thats fine, so this doesn't apply to you.

I can not recall whether it was earlier in this topic or in another topic on PH, but very recently there was some debate about the rights and wrongs of speeding. Well I see it like this:

Speeding is undeniably wrong in so far as it contravenes the law, but beyond that it is arguable, and in moral terms I do not regard it as wrong when I break that particular law.

The law is made by politicians for whom, as a group, I - and perhaps many of you - do not have a particularly high regard. In many cases these are people whose behavioural and moral standards are by no means superior to mine, and yours, and I therefore do not necessarily place a high value on some of the laws they create. Where I support their general objective - such as a decent level of road safety - I will try to behave in a manner that is compatible with that, but rigid compliance with speed limits is, for my purposes, not an important ingredient.

I have previously made various references to my attitude to other road users, namely that it is essentially one of goodwill, tolerance, accommodation, promoting harmony and co-operation, and being mindful of their interests, not just my own. That is how I prefer things to be, it is in no way a tiresome restriction.

You, on the other hand, recently announced quite clearly that you had no interest in the thoughts and (in effect) feelings of other road users. In my opinion that was not a good stance to take, and I'm not inclined to feel that my attitude and approach, and indeed moral stance is inferior to that.

That's about all I can say. This is perhaps an unusual way of looking at it, but there you go.

Oh, and you do not need to tell me to cool it etc.

Enjoy your driving, and take care,
Dave.

[ipsg.glf]

With all due respect BFF you sound like a typical IAM member. Are you?

Droaning on and on about not exceeding the speed limit is exactly why the IAM is a total irrelevance to the vast majority of young drivers.

We need to get them onside and one of the best ways of trying to do this is, IMHO, to teach them the principle of being "able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear "rather than slavish adherance to a limit on a bit of tin.

Let's not forget that IAM standard, in the scheme of things, is not a very high standard at all and just because people have passed the test does not mean they suddenly know everything there is to know about driving.

Remember that rules are for the observance of fools and the guidance of wise men. Which one are you?

Edited by ipsg.glf on Thursday 15th June 09:49

[Fat Audi 80]

vonhosen said:

Fat Audi 80 said:

I have had Advanced lessons where I have been "Given full remit to explore speeds above the NSL" (In NSL areas only). So either I didn't have "Advanced Lessons" or you are full of ****!

I won't tell you where or with whom I had said lessons but they were conducted by a qualified and serving class 1 police car and motorcyclist. QED

Cheers,

Steve

Were they qualified to teach you to do that though ?
Why don't you want to say who by or where ?
Is it because you know that it isn't recognised by any advancved driving body that you can ?

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 14th June 19:28

Vanhosen - YHM

[Fat Audi 80]

Big Fat F'er said:

Fat Audi 80 said:

IMO 15 years IS long enough to have a large enough experience of roadcraft and driving to give a valid opinion.

I didn't' say it wasn't. I just pointed out that 15 years is not that long, and an accident rate of 1 every 7.5 years aint anything to be proud of. I know drivers with far less experience than you who are (probably) so far above you they are unbelievable. I know other drivers who have been on the road longer than you've been born (probably) who are so bad they should be banned. 15 years in itself is not that long, and does not support any claims you may make about your skills.

Fat Audi 80 said:

Do I need to do forty years to satisfy your own criteria.

No. You just need long enough to grasp the concept that it isn't time per se that gives you skill. And the maturity to realise that 15 years isn't anything special.

Fat Audi 80 said:

Is Micheal Schumacher not experienced enough at Forumla 1 after 12 - 15 years.

Yes. And your point is. you ain't michael Schumaker. What makes him so qualified to talk about driving is his proven experience. Proven. Not just lengthy. There's a difference.

Fat Audi 80 said:

FFS (I give up like the others...).

That's a shame, 'cos you had some good points worth thinking about and debating. You may not like my style. That's fair enough. I don't like you breaking the law. You stuck to your guns, etc, etc, etc. Evens stevens. Its the difference that makes it worthwhile. so don't take your bat home....FFS

Fat Audi 80 said:

BYE!

See ya.

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Wednesday 14th June 17:25

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Wednesday 14th June 17:26

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Wednesday 14th June 17:26

Edited by Big Fat F'er on Wednesday 14th June 17:27

How the hell can you judge how good a driver I am from your armchair

You, don't know me, so don't try and judge me either.

You are possibly one of the most arrogant trolls we have seen for a while on here. I understand you like a good debate (read argument) but your style does you no favours. You obviously didn't come on here to win friends and influence people, congratulations, you have succeded.

I will give you a wide berth from now on

P.S. If you are the fountain of all that is great about driving perhaps you could explain your qualifications and experience that make you so well positioned in your ivory tower?

Cheers,

Steve.

[7db]

ipsg.glf said:

Remember that rules are for the observance of fools and the guidance of wise men. Which one are you?

Notice - as any sportsman will - the difference between Rules and Laws.