A short lived romance!
Discussion
Making gear changes while steering is a bit daft, but theres nothing wrong with making gear changes while the tyres aren't straight - so long as your hands are correctly positioned around the wheel.
I doubt you'll go out with the same observer again anyway, so I'd just suck it and see. Once you've learnt the basic system of car control, I think you'll find the rest of the course massively beneficial (observation, anticipation, etc).
As for mirrors, the only reason I can think of somebody mentioning this is if you were making manouveres without checking first. Thats what they're there for.
>> Edited by Parrot of Doom on Wednesday 22 February 23:09
I doubt you'll go out with the same observer again anyway, so I'd just suck it and see. Once you've learnt the basic system of car control, I think you'll find the rest of the course massively beneficial (observation, anticipation, etc).
As for mirrors, the only reason I can think of somebody mentioning this is if you were making manouveres without checking first. Thats what they're there for.
>> Edited by Parrot of Doom on Wednesday 22 February 23:09
Parrot of Doom said:
Making gear changes while steering is a bit daft, but theres nothing wrong with making gear changes while the tyres aren't straight - so long as your hands are correctly positioned around the wheel.
Usually you'll be looking for a bit of power to balance your corner whilst the tyres aren't straight, so changing gear takes that power away, and might unsettle the balance of the car. That's in addition to the ability-to-control-the-wheel point which you point out can be nullified by hand position on the wheel.
Can I just say that I do appreciate all your kind comments and helpful suggestions, and the elements of criticism directed at me. It was not all the Observer's fault, as I can be a tricky blighter somewhat set in my ways and very much inclined to question changes that I do not see as beneficial.
I will carefully review what has been said here, and I need to reply to some of your contributions, but apart from that I think it would be best if this topic were to be allowed to fade away now.
Very best wishes all,
Dave.
I will carefully review what has been said here, and I need to reply to some of your contributions, but apart from that I think it would be best if this topic were to be allowed to fade away now.
Very best wishes all,
Dave.
I've got to say I've spoken to several people recently & they have come back with similar feelings.
My point of view is the IAM & ilk should initially concentrate on hazard awareness, improvemnet of hazrad perecption, then & only then move onto driver control & etiquette (unless its blaringly obvious something needs to be done)
Quite how steering wheel hand position & use is more important than hazard perception I don't know.
My point of view is the IAM & ilk should initially concentrate on hazard awareness, improvemnet of hazrad perecption, then & only then move onto driver control & etiquette (unless its blaringly obvious something needs to be done)
Quite how steering wheel hand position & use is more important than hazard perception I don't know.
cptsideways said:
I've got to say I've spoken to several people recently & they have come back with similar feelings.
My point of view is the IAM & ilk should initially concentrate on hazard awareness, improvemnet of hazrad perecption, then & only then move onto driver control & etiquette (unless its blaringly obvious something needs to be done)
Quite how steering wheel hand position & use is more important than hazard perception I don't know.
I'm afraid I felt as if I was back in the era of my first driving lessons - and not showing much promise!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
cptsideways said:
Quite how steering wheel hand position & use is more important than hazard perception I don't know.
If you're driving around a corner or roundabout with your right hand at the bottom of the wheel and your left hand on the gearlever, its hardly going to help you if you need to swerve to the offside to avoid a car thats not seen you and is about to hit, no matter how good your anticipation is.
Feeding the wheel makes a lot of sense. I don't follow it 100% of the time, for instance when going from lock to lock while maneuvering I'll not be feeding the wheel through my hands. The rest of the time though I stick with the 10-2 position, even on long motorway drives (sometimes I'll mirror it on the lower half of the wheel though).
Parrot of Doom said:
Quite how steering wheel hand position & use is more important than hazard perception I don't know.
If you're driving around a corner or roundabout with your right hand at the bottom of the wheel and your left hand on the gearlever, its hardly going to help you if you need to swerve to the offside to avoid a car thats not seen you and is about to hit, no matter how good your anticipation is.
Feeding the wheel makes a lot of sense. I don't follow it 100% of the time, for instance when going from lock to lock while maneuvering I'll not be feeding the wheel through my hands. The rest of the time though I stick with the 10-2 position, even on long motorway drives (sometimes I'll mirror it on the lower half of the wheel though).
Most people can at least manage to turn a wheel competently without causing me too much stress as a passenger, few have hazard awareness skills I'd be comfortable with.
As for steering technique very very very few people can do it competently in a situation & get the end result right without practice. I teach this on a regular basis
If I may just offer the following update:
This evening I had a telephone call from the Training Officer of the IAM Scarborough Group. He expressed his concern about what happened on Tuesday afternoon, and suggested that we have a trip out together with him as Observer, to make a leisurely assessment of the situation.
After a suitable breathing space I shall be happy to co-operate with this attempt to get things back on the rails.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
This evening I had a telephone call from the Training Officer of the IAM Scarborough Group. He expressed his concern about what happened on Tuesday afternoon, and suggested that we have a trip out together with him as Observer, to make a leisurely assessment of the situation.
After a suitable breathing space I shall be happy to co-operate with this attempt to get things back on the rails.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
If I may just offer the following update:
This evening I had a telephone call from the Training Officer of the IAM Scarborough Group. He expressed his concern about what happened on Tuesday afternoon, and suggested that we have a trip out together with him as Observer, to make a leisurely assessment of the situation.
After a suitable breathing space I shall be happy to co-operate with this attempt to get things back on the rails.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Hi Dave,
Phil is a good observer and has a good style, I am sure you will take at least something from your drive with him. Sorry to hear your first drive with the group didn't go as planned.
I hope you can stick with it.
Mark
omegac said:
General handling of the steering wheel.
Steering wheel grip
Too much single handed steering.
Making gear changes while steering.
Inadequate use of mirrors.
Improper use of gears.
Unsatisfactory approach to roundabouts and junctions.
Dave...did he explain why those things were not correct or just criticise?
I joined my local group and was shocked by the standard of the observer I went out with. I am now getting into observing for Rospa, and so far have been much more impressed.
To me it felt pretty much like undiluted criticism, with not much explanation or willingness to discuss. It seemed to be a matter of...'Do it this way and don't argue!'
What made it worse was that there was really no encouragement of any kind to offset the (at least partly justified) criticism. It all felt a bit grim overall.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Don said:
General handling of the steering wheel.
Steering wheel grip
Too much single handed steering.
Making gear changes while steering.
Inadequate use of mirrors.
Improper use of gears.
Unsatisfactory approach to roundabouts and junctions.
Dave...did he explain why those things were not correct or just criticise?
And did you get a "demo" drive? Someone should *show* you how to do all those things right - or as right as they can make them on the day, anyway, no-one's perfect...
No, I had not had any demonstration drives prior to my first observed drive, but this morning I met up with an IAM/RoSPA/HPC gentleman and we spent above four hours together. I drove from Saltburn - Whitby - Scarborough - Pickering - Whitby - Saltburn, and then we repeated the process with the other car and driver.
This confirmed that I do not meet IAM standards at present, but at least I had the opportunity to see what their standard is supposed to look like. Again, faults were found with my driving, and the following points were mentioned:
1. I tend to go into some bends a bit too quickly in relation to the available vision. It was not a major thing, but the speed was judged to be a bit high in some cases.
2. My 'slingshot' overtaking technique was frowned on somewhat, but I maintain this is a natural response to the fact that I drive a fairly low powered car.
3. My driving is not considered to be progressive. Quite often I do not accelerate hard enough into NSL areas, and I tend to drive a bit below the NSL in cases where I could get on a little faster. Also I sometimes fail to be positive enough about looking for overtaking opportunities.
Point 1. I accept this and it is indeed something to think about and adjust, of course.
Point 2. Again I am aware there are potential dangers with this, but I have long been aware of that, and I believe the technique is valid so long as it is applied with due caution.
Point 3. Very disappointing this one. I have always taken the view that I can make very good progress when I wish to do so, but I do not see why I should be expected to drive like that all the time. If I feel like proceeding at a fairly leisurely pace, why should I not do that, so long as I do not cause any inconvemience to others who may wish to drive more quickly? For advanced driving purposes I can see the relevance of being required to demonstrate the ability to make good progress, but it ought not to be necessary to drive like that all the time.
Anyhow these are all matters to be worked on if I wish to pursue the matter of an IAM test.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
mefoster said:
Quite probably many of you will feel that the blame for the fiasco this afternoon lies entirely with me, in which by all means feel free to let me know - but I don’t think it is quite so clear cut as all that.
You're probably expecting me to say, "Nyeerr nyeerrr told ya so!". But I won't.
Whilst your description of the events does sound like you were averse to learning, the fact that you went there at all demonstrates otherwise. Unfortunately, it would appear that my worst fears have been confirmed and you got precisely the kind of obeserver that I hoped you wouldn't. It would appear that there is rather a lot of criticism, no explanation as to why, and most importantly, no demonstration. It is a real shame that your first encounter has only served to bolster your pre-conceptions as you have already won half the battle by seeking to improve.
If you weren't so far away, I would teach you myself.
Don't give up, just try to find someone that you can get on with. If you never listen to anything else I say, trust me on this; Once you have learned and made the switch to The System, you will NEVER look back.
I know we have had our differences Mark, and I expect we shall do so again, but I was not expecting you to say 'I told you so' - so thanks for not doing!
As for teaching me yourself - well obviously that's not on, but thank you for that thought. In any case I shall be happy to meet you should the opportunity arise sometime.
With regard to me switching to The System, well I thought I had incorporated The System into my driving, at least partially, though nobody seems to agree with me about that. To me there is a real mystery here.
You may recall from urd a chap named 'Silk' from South Gloucestershire. He once said that prior to his IAM training he was doing panic braking very frequently indeed, but after his IAM training the panic braking declined to only a few times a week, or something. A few times a week!!!!
Good grief, my need to take urgent action of any kind is probably no more frequent than maybe once a year, and that's about it. OK, so I'm not applying The System very well, but I must be doing something right. I hardly ever find myself being taken by surprise by anything while driving, so there is something odd about this entire business, and right now I don't know what it is.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Mr Beckerman said:
You've made the first step, so why not continue? A bad experience for 30 minutes shouldn't taint your continued enjoyment of improving your driving. You've been vocal in your opinions and how you wanted to get your opinions across, and where as I may not agree with a lot of your posts (I've lurked on Usenet and seen the threads) all credit to you for taking the bull by the horns and getting stuck in. If more people did, I'm sure our roads would be a better place.
It really is a worthwhile experience to learn and be able to correctly implement the system, it is also equally important to continue to use and implement the system after achieving the standard. To me,that's the most important point, maintaining the standard, unlike a colleague of mine (IAM member) who has an interesting interpretation of parts of the system.....
Give it another go. You've nothing to lose and an awful lot of satisfaction to gain.
I don't know about taking the bull by the horns. Right now it feels as if I've jumped starkers into the middle of a gorse bush. For some reason it seemed like a good idea at the time, but now....?
There might in due course be a degree of satisfaction to be felt, but at the moment I think I'm doing more harm than good. As for my continued enjoyment of driving, that was absolutely fine and always had been, but it isn't now and it remains to be seen if it ever does come back properly. Even if it does, I can't see it being better than it was a week ago.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
7db said:
TripleS - Good report back.
Can I ask why you want to learn advanced techniques, when you have a system of your own that works?
At the bottom of that question, I think, lies the answer to how and where you'll go from here.
Thanks for the compliment.
The answer to your question is this - I grumbled from the outside about what I thought was wrong with the IAM for so long, and then I thought it would be better to get in and try to help from the inside. At the moment it looks unlikely that I shall get in properly, and even if I do I won't be in a position to change anything. Other people, better qualified than I am, appear to have already tried that without much success.
As for the advanced techniques - this is where I'm going to sound complacent again, sorry. My style* will compare quite unfavourably with the textbook, that much is beyond dispute, but in reality, out on the road, in what way is my style inferior? That is what I am having difficulty in seeing. It is certainly different, but is it really less safe?
* I am trying to get away from referring to 'my system' in order to avoid confusion with The System, though there doesn't seem to be much comparison.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
xiphias said:
I can understand where TS is coming from.
My observer did nothing apart from give directions and a few bits of local knowledge. He then gave me a quick 5 minute debrief. Thumbs on wheel, too many slightly unnecessary gear changes and a few other bits. It wasn't a dressdown, more just observations. Following this, he took me along the same route with full commentary. This direct comparison, as my drive was fresh in my mind, pointed out the little differences between us two, and made me realise a few of the things I'd missed. The idea I believe was to teach by osmosis. It worked quite well, and helped prove it's not too difficult to get to a higher standard (The impression I had anyway, I hope it's the right one!). I think the IAM needs a lesson in teaching, as a few members seeem to teach by parrot fashion, which I hoped died out a long time ago.
Very nice. I am extremely envious of you having that type of Observer. Working with somebody like that I might have a bit better hope of some success. If that didn't work, then I would feel it was all my fault.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
ya55erm said:
With me being 23yrs old, the only thing i worry about when wanting to apply for the IAM is that i dont want some plonker aged 9 million, looking down his bifocals at the nike shox that i'm wearing, telling me that my aftershave is a bit to sweet to go with the road surface i am traveling on!
I understand where your coming from Dave, the observer should have know the fact that you are looking to improve your driving standard before being tested against it and it was unfair this has happened.
If i was in your situation and the observer did as he did with you id give him a piece of my mind regardless of how good a driver he might be!
No excuses!
Teach Dont Preach!
Well yes I've also had some pretty harsh thoughts about all this. On the other hand I'm also mindful of the fact that these Observers do what they do voluntarily and without payment. It therefore seems a shame if their unpaid efforts are being partially wasted, which they surely will be if the regime is like the one I encountered.
Incidentally, I don't know how good a driver he is...I had no opportunity to see!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Don said:
Dear oh dear.
[realitycheckmode=on]
Its not the Observer's job to convince you they're right. They don't have to. Its their job to show you how to drive using the Police System of Roadcraft. You can disagree with it. But this is like complaining to Trafpol that they should catch some real criminals instead of doing you for 95 on the M4...you can't win and all you'll do is make his day shit. Nice one, eh! Instead why not write to the Chief Examiner of the IAM to let him know he's wrong. Maybe if you have string of driving qualifications to your name and are, perhaps, at least nationally well known for your driving talents - like, say, Nigel Mansell, perhaps he'll listen, take what you're saying on-board and ensure that the next edition of Roadcraft gets updated with your sage wisdom.
[realitycheckmode=off]
Hmm. Nigel Mansell achieved success at the highest pinnacle of motor racing which delighted us all, but this does not, I suggest, relate very usefully to how he might be as a driver on public roads. He might be brilliant, but maybe not, I don't know. I don't think the Formula One successes help that much, do they?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
The only thing I'll add to this is something from so many years and years ago tis somewhat scary.
Too strong to say was having trouble with THE system, but let us say that I could apply it when the instructor was sat in the passenger seat but trundling about in my own car on my own business things were not so rigorously applied all the time.
Then a situation arose, or perhaps more correctly, could have arisen. Without going into detail let's just say that as it was all developing and being handled became conscious that the reason it was all being handled without fuss and drama, despite the liberal display of muppetry before my eyes, was by a rigorous application of the system and the lessons learned.
No it wasn't on the road to Damascus but could have been.
Personally I hate the type of instructors whose only method of teaching is to criticise, this wrong, that wrong, should be doing the other. I cringed at the thread the other day when someone said they went out and the observer said nowt. They should be talking you through it all the time, accentuating the positives, bringing in the negatives gradually, so you pick things up not because "I've been told this is the way" but because "Yes I can see the sense in that!"
OK the brutal way to do it is to pull your driving apart right down to basics, as in "you're holding the gearstick the wrong way" and it all gets worse before it gets better, that's a good way to turn someone off imho.
Also I bet no-one on here drives the same every day as you do when Himself/Herself with the examiner clipboard is sitting beside you, but you should be capable of showing it on the day amd on request. There are days when I don't hoon everywhere and trickle along. The key is, as you say, being aware and letting others get by if they can, or hustling along yourself until there is a place where they can get by.
Stick with it. Think about that less than 1% of licence holders have taken any advanced instruction since passing their basic DSA test. So stick with it and in a very short time the chances are that in any situation you are the one doing it right, because the other 99% are simply learning to drive by trial and error and that ain't right imho.
Understand your comment about overtaking in low powered vehicles though. For some years I had a VW Type 2 1600cc single port campervan, had to concentrate on keeping up momentum on that one.
2p
FiF
Too strong to say was having trouble with THE system, but let us say that I could apply it when the instructor was sat in the passenger seat but trundling about in my own car on my own business things were not so rigorously applied all the time.
Then a situation arose, or perhaps more correctly, could have arisen. Without going into detail let's just say that as it was all developing and being handled became conscious that the reason it was all being handled without fuss and drama, despite the liberal display of muppetry before my eyes, was by a rigorous application of the system and the lessons learned.
No it wasn't on the road to Damascus but could have been.
Personally I hate the type of instructors whose only method of teaching is to criticise, this wrong, that wrong, should be doing the other. I cringed at the thread the other day when someone said they went out and the observer said nowt. They should be talking you through it all the time, accentuating the positives, bringing in the negatives gradually, so you pick things up not because "I've been told this is the way" but because "Yes I can see the sense in that!"
OK the brutal way to do it is to pull your driving apart right down to basics, as in "you're holding the gearstick the wrong way" and it all gets worse before it gets better, that's a good way to turn someone off imho.
Also I bet no-one on here drives the same every day as you do when Himself/Herself with the examiner clipboard is sitting beside you, but you should be capable of showing it on the day amd on request. There are days when I don't hoon everywhere and trickle along. The key is, as you say, being aware and letting others get by if they can, or hustling along yourself until there is a place where they can get by.
Stick with it. Think about that less than 1% of licence holders have taken any advanced instruction since passing their basic DSA test. So stick with it and in a very short time the chances are that in any situation you are the one doing it right, because the other 99% are simply learning to drive by trial and error and that ain't right imho.
Understand your comment about overtaking in low powered vehicles though. For some years I had a VW Type 2 1600cc single port campervan, had to concentrate on keeping up momentum on that one.
2p
FiF
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