Teaching youngsters to drive and associated hazards.
Discussion
BliarOut said:
he got it woefully wrong on the approach to a tight bend and didn't scrub off enough speed. The gf squealed around the time I decided to intervene.... I pulled the handbrake on and pushed the wheel to help us get round but I could feel the rears trying to lock 
Not being keen on trying to control a skid from the passenger seat I eased the handbrake a bit and we *just* got round.
Not being keen on trying to control a skid from the passenger seat I eased the handbrake a bit and we *just* got round. I'm imagining quite a frightening situation there. On public roads he should never have been close enough to the performance limits of the car to be in danger of falling off the road, and as an inexperienced driver he should have been even more cautious. I wonder whether he felt he was being encouraged to try to find the limits of the car, although clearly he was not remotely ready for that. Putting the handbrake on for him is probably not a very good way to slow him down. It destabilises the car in a situation where he is presumably already too fast and in danger of losing control. If you had put the handbrake on enough to shed a significant amount of speed you would have been off the road backwards before he knew what happened. I'd suggest if you find yourself in that situation again it might be better to start giving him feedback if you think he is misjudging the situation - tell him the corner looks relatively sharp, suggest that he needs to slow down, tell him it's time to brake, if all else fails tell him in no uncertain terms to
BRAKE NOW. If he's getting carried away some calming down and attitude adjustment might be in order, but you could help by explaining the techniques you used to judge the road. Trying to take control of the car seems at best a very risky response under the circumstances and at worst it could cause the accident.
However it didn't, which possibly vindicates my choice of car control methods. 
I fully agree it's less than ideal, but I had a surprising amount of feel and I've used the "emergency brake" to give it's correct name on many occasions while driving myself. I'm accomplished at handbrake turns so it's not too difficult to feather the brake and slow things down without overly upsetting the car. I was very conscious of rear end grip and not invoking a slide that would have been bordering on uncorrectable from the passenger side.
It's not easy to describe a situation on t'internet so it may appear at cross purposes but bringing it to a dead stop wasn't really an option plus I don't know how good his reactions are. You're faced with a set of circumstances and you do your best to minimise the impact of a learners error. We had a fair margin for error but I'd say we used nearly every inch of it to recover
Fortunately I've discovered a weakness in his driving that we can work with and hopefully correct before he's on his own. As I mentioned, he's nearly up to test standard yet had he been on this road on his own he would have definitely gone off the road. I'll be taking him out a lot on difficult roads from now on and leave the DSA type stuff to the instructor. I'm hoping we get some really shitty weather at night before he passes as I think we should give that a go too.
If I achieve nothing more than demonstrating that he will make mistakes perhaps it'll keep him relatively safe until he can build his own experience.
I fully agree it's less than ideal, but I had a surprising amount of feel and I've used the "emergency brake" to give it's correct name on many occasions while driving myself. I'm accomplished at handbrake turns so it's not too difficult to feather the brake and slow things down without overly upsetting the car. I was very conscious of rear end grip and not invoking a slide that would have been bordering on uncorrectable from the passenger side.
It's not easy to describe a situation on t'internet so it may appear at cross purposes but bringing it to a dead stop wasn't really an option plus I don't know how good his reactions are. You're faced with a set of circumstances and you do your best to minimise the impact of a learners error. We had a fair margin for error but I'd say we used nearly every inch of it to recover
Fortunately I've discovered a weakness in his driving that we can work with and hopefully correct before he's on his own. As I mentioned, he's nearly up to test standard yet had he been on this road on his own he would have definitely gone off the road. I'll be taking him out a lot on difficult roads from now on and leave the DSA type stuff to the instructor. I'm hoping we get some really shitty weather at night before he passes as I think we should give that a go too.
If I achieve nothing more than demonstrating that he will make mistakes perhaps it'll keep him relatively safe until he can build his own experience.
FWIW, and please take this as honest and positive feedback given your description and my experience with young people learning to drive*. I think you are perhaps going too far too soon. It's very easy to take a competent learner and try to push their skills. However, when you teach new things, the old things tend to fall apart until they have got them. That's fine of itself, but, the more the 'old things' have become easy, learned and natural, the less they fall apart when more advanced techniques are introduced.
So an example. You do not need to make use of the whole width of your side of the road, or the whole width of the road ("positioning", unless you want to push the speed up. That is for maximising the distance you can see to be clear and reasonably remain clear. That allows you to use more speed. The other approach is to be slower, ie the right speed for what you can see. It is better with a less experienced driver to remain slower rather than faster.
So with a learner, getting them working well at the slower speed is a better approach. It has a bigger safety margin for one. This of course falls apart when they pass, get on their own and hoof it about. The best answer to that is driving ethos...teaching them by example and education that pushing the envelope will get them into trouble and that there are times to push. One stage at a time, pass, pass plus, airfield track day, skid pan, IAM (vaguely in some kind of order).
So there's some considered thoughts...now for a value judgement, I think that if you have put a learner in a position that you had to take over with handbrake and steering, then that is a mistake. The wrong place, the wrong time, the wrong message...sorry, just what I think.
Hope that's not too impertinent or judgemental (I'll save that for SP&L!).
Graham
*qualifications, none really, have been involved in teaching 12-17 yr olds (mins and many others) for about 4 years on a voluntary basis - just seen a lot!
So an example. You do not need to make use of the whole width of your side of the road, or the whole width of the road ("positioning"
, unless you want to push the speed up. That is for maximising the distance you can see to be clear and reasonably remain clear. That allows you to use more speed. The other approach is to be slower, ie the right speed for what you can see. It is better with a less experienced driver to remain slower rather than faster. So with a learner, getting them working well at the slower speed is a better approach. It has a bigger safety margin for one. This of course falls apart when they pass, get on their own and hoof it about. The best answer to that is driving ethos...teaching them by example and education that pushing the envelope will get them into trouble and that there are times to push. One stage at a time, pass, pass plus, airfield track day, skid pan, IAM (vaguely in some kind of order).
So there's some considered thoughts...now for a value judgement, I think that if you have put a learner in a position that you had to take over with handbrake and steering, then that is a mistake. The wrong place, the wrong time, the wrong message...sorry, just what I think.
Hope that's not too impertinent or judgemental (I'll save that for SP&L!).
Graham
*qualifications, none really, have been involved in teaching 12-17 yr olds (mins and many others) for about 4 years on a voluntary basis - just seen a lot!
BliarOut said:
However it didn't, which possibly vindicates my choice of car control methods.
Possibly, but if you'd done nothing you might well still be alive - does that mean you should have done nothing? If you are not capable of detecting a potentially dangerous situation developing and giving the learner clear instructions to avoid it, then I would question whether you should be trying to teach him. If the learner is not capable of following your clear instructions then they should be removed from the driving seat promptly and only allowed to drive again once the instructor/learner relationship has been firmly reestablished. What you did *may* have been what saved the day but it strikes me as a desperate measure that would probably have done more harm than good in many situations. The fact that you apparently let the situation develop without making any other attempt to avoid the danger before things become this desperate, is rather worrying.
We can turn this into a debate about me if you like, but as I was there and you weren't I'm always going to win as I am the only one in possession of the facts. Anything you wish to speculate about will be merely that, speculation. What would have happened if I told him to brake? I know the answer, but do you?
See, you don't know, do you? I made a decision while in possession of the full facts and acted in the way that my twenty five years of driving and advanced motorcycling instinctively told me was the best way to correct a mistake. It worked.
Now, we can get back on track of how unprepared youngsters are when they reach test standard, or we can have an internet fight. You choose, I've got all day here.
See, you don't know, do you? I made a decision while in possession of the full facts and acted in the way that my twenty five years of driving and advanced motorcycling instinctively told me was the best way to correct a mistake. It worked.
Now, we can get back on track of how unprepared youngsters are when they reach test standard, or we can have an internet fight. You choose, I've got all day here.
BliarOut said:
See, you don't know, do you?
Of course I wasn't there, I only know what you have told us about the situation.
BliarOut said:
I ... acted in the way that my twenty five years of driving and advanced motorcycling instinctively told me was the best way to correct a mistake. It worked.
Judging by your response it seems that you still think that what you did was the best thing under the circumstances. Hopefully it's obvious to you by now that I don't think it was, based on the situation I am imagining from your description. You might choose to respond by correcting my understanding of the situation. Or you might choose to discuss what you could/should have done, maybe you were right and I'm wrong. What you seem to have done is get on your high horse, tell us how experienced you are and reject the perceived criticism.
You say you know what the driver would have done if you told him to slow down or brake. Are you trying to imply that he would have ignored you? Massively over-reacted? Done something else at random? If any of these are true then with all due respect you and he are not a safe combination. But that's just my opinion, feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
There wasn't sufficient distance to come to a halt at the point when it became apparent he had misjudged the corner. Ahead was a dyke, we would have gone into it had he tried to stop. The car didn't have ABS, would he have locked up and/or panicked if I had shouted at him to stop? I don't know and you certainly don't.
The emergency brake is there to use, I used it and helped him correct the steering at the same time. The only difference between my actions and those of an instructor is that I didn't have dual controls available so I used what was there.
Feel free to make this a debate about me if you want, but it was the best course of action under the circumstances.
So, are we going to get back on track about what the DSA test leaves uncovered or not?
The emergency brake is there to use, I used it and helped him correct the steering at the same time. The only difference between my actions and those of an instructor is that I didn't have dual controls available so I used what was there.
Feel free to make this a debate about me if you want, but it was the best course of action under the circumstances.
So, are we going to get back on track about what the DSA test leaves uncovered or not?
I think you are on a hiding to nothing and could, with the very best of intentions, give him increased confidence in his ability at a time when he needs to jump through the hoops of the DSA test.
If I were in your shoes, I would:
1. Stop giving him any sort of tuition, but leave it to the instructor.
2. Once he has passed his test, get him throug Passplus.
3. Then get him through IAM.
4. Then restart your training with him.
If I were in your shoes, I would:
1. Stop giving him any sort of tuition, but leave it to the instructor.
2. Once he has passed his test, get him throug Passplus.
3. Then get him through IAM.
4. Then restart your training with him.
I do take your points, but, and it's a big but, he's almost at test standard now. Had he been on that road on his own he would have crashed into a dyke.
As I said in the initial posts, Lincolnshire has some very bad roads and I don't think it makes sense to let him loose when we can currently tutor him in techniques that may just save his bacon. Sure he may use them to push the performance envelope but I honestly don't think that's his style. Far better to teach him how to read the road from day one and how to maximise his chances of spotting potential hazards early.
Hazard perception is the one area young drivers fare badly on, while I have the opportunity I would rather work with him to improve his awareness.
The other thing is if we travel the majority of difficult roads with him driving supervised he has a far better chance of surviving until he can complete some additional third party training.
For the record I always insisted people didn't use "baby speak" when I bought my kids up. I see no point in learning something only to have to forget what you've just learned and learn it all anew.
As I said in the initial posts, Lincolnshire has some very bad roads and I don't think it makes sense to let him loose when we can currently tutor him in techniques that may just save his bacon. Sure he may use them to push the performance envelope but I honestly don't think that's his style. Far better to teach him how to read the road from day one and how to maximise his chances of spotting potential hazards early.
Hazard perception is the one area young drivers fare badly on, while I have the opportunity I would rather work with him to improve his awareness.
The other thing is if we travel the majority of difficult roads with him driving supervised he has a far better chance of surviving until he can complete some additional third party training.
For the record I always insisted people didn't use "baby speak" when I bought my kids up. I see no point in learning something only to have to forget what you've just learned and learn it all anew.
it's hard for us to comment as we don't have the whole story as we of course weren't there. Apologies for commenting on your actions rather than your main point in posting.
However, and maybe wrongly I had inferred from your "teach to use the whole width" comment that you were teaching a new technique. With a new technique you have to allow for the old techniques to become poorer as the new is learned. So it may be that rather then vindicating your view that without you he would have crashed (corner entry speed too fast) you have in fact created the circumstances for the accident. Just a thought.
Maybe a couple of things to try would be to encourage a commentary and introduce the "limit point" technique. Both will have the same effect on the other aspects of the driving, but will be ok if you practice them. The commentary is very good as it gives a great insight into the thought processes and the limit point stuff might give a better mechanism for (not mis-) judging entry speeds.
I would however be very careful not to disrupt what is being taught by the driving instructor. I taught my daughter to drive from the age of 13, but once she got on the road with an instructor for a brief period before her test, I left her well alone as the once I went out with her was a complete disaster!
HTH
Graham
However, and maybe wrongly I had inferred from your "teach to use the whole width" comment that you were teaching a new technique. With a new technique you have to allow for the old techniques to become poorer as the new is learned. So it may be that rather then vindicating your view that without you he would have crashed (corner entry speed too fast) you have in fact created the circumstances for the accident. Just a thought.
Maybe a couple of things to try would be to encourage a commentary and introduce the "limit point" technique. Both will have the same effect on the other aspects of the driving, but will be ok if you practice them. The commentary is very good as it gives a great insight into the thought processes and the limit point stuff might give a better mechanism for (not mis-) judging entry speeds.
I would however be very careful not to disrupt what is being taught by the driving instructor. I taught my daughter to drive from the age of 13, but once she got on the road with an instructor for a brief period before her test, I left her well alone as the once I went out with her was a complete disaster!
HTH
Graham
I think that most people underestimate the capacity of the brain to absorb information.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
EmmaP said:
I think that most people underestimate the capacity of the brain to absorb information.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
Thanks Emma, cheque or cash again? I bet it's cash
EmmaP said:
I think that most people underestimate the capacity of the brain to absorb information.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
EmmaP
I agree 100% with every word except that he should not try to overload the young lad. If he does too much advanced stuff too early, the youngster might get confused. I'd hate to see him fail his DSA test because on an overtake he went out for a look first.
ipsg.glf said:
EmmaP said:
I think that most people underestimate the capacity of the brain to absorb information.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
EmmaP
I agree 100% with every word except that he should not try to overload the young lad. If he does too much advanced stuff too early, the youngster might get confused. I'd hate to see him fail his DSA test because on an overtake he went out for a look first.
Conversely I'd hate to see him crash because he didn't know how to overtake safely. Perhaps a bit more background would help.
Friend from his school last year. Dead. His cousin went in a dyke with three friends in the car. Fortunately the crash took out the windows and they all got out alive from a submerged car but the outcome could have been very different.
I would feel irresponsible if I didn't take him out to face the sort of roads he's likely to travel on his own when he actually passes his test and do my best to equip him to spot the hazards and deal with them safely. Passing the test doesn't do that.
of course (and we all face it as parents) there are two problems. Skills and attitudes. How do you get both right so that the unfortunate events you describe dont happen? I would work in conjunction with the instructor on the skills bit so you are both happy. On the attitude, that's a difficult one...needs to be based in a good father/son relationship and an ongoing interest, programme, set of events etc.
I stand by my point though on not overloading with "advanced" skills. The only one I would really focus on is observation and hazard perception.
Graham
I stand by my point though on not overloading with "advanced" skills. The only one I would really focus on is observation and hazard perception.
Graham
ipsg.glf said:
EmmaP said:
I think that most people underestimate the capacity of the brain to absorb information.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
EmmaP
I agree 100% with every word except that he should not try to overload the young lad. If he does too much advanced stuff too early, the youngster might get confused. I'd hate to see him fail his DSA test because on an overtake he went out for a look first.
Eh, if you had a look before overtaking (roadcraft style) you'd fail your DSA test ???
BliarOut said:
ipsg.glf said:
EmmaP said:
I think that most people underestimate the capacity of the brain to absorb information.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
EmmaP
I agree 100% with every word except that he should not try to overload the young lad. If he does too much advanced stuff too early, the youngster might get confused. I'd hate to see him fail his DSA test because on an overtake he went out for a look first.
Conversely I'd hate to see him crash because he didn't know how to overtake safely. Perhaps a bit more background would help.
Friend from his school last year. Dead. His cousin went in a dyke with three friends in the car. Fortunately the crash took out the windows and they all got out alive from a submerged car but the outcome could have been very different.
I would feel irresponsible if I didn't take him out to face the sort of roads he's likely to travel on his own when he actually passes his test and do my best to equip him to spot the hazards and deal with them safely. Passing the test doesn't do that.
Think you should have a
... nice to see someone actually teaching someone to drive, as opposed to pass the test.
Others have made a fair point, not too much at a time, if you only taught him one thing, it should be the limit point.
M
ipsg.glf said:
...he should not try to overload the young lad. If he does too much advanced stuff too early, the youngster might get confused.
If it is delivered in bite-sized chunks - as advanced lessons are - I think it would be ok. Say, one or two hours on a weekend afternoon. Nothing to intense or pressurized. I guess it all depends on the lad really. Some people are naturals at this driving lark, others not.
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