Emergency vehicles and traffic lights - reprise.

[Big Fat F'r]

CommanderJameson said:

Big Fat F'r said:

WilliBetz said:

vonhosen said:

I wonder.


If you were the sort of person who kept to speed limits, because you didn't wish to risk getting points, then perhaps not going through the red light is consistent behaviour & understandable.

If you were the sort of person who habitually broke speed limits (willing to risk points for progress or fun), claiming it was fine because it was safe when you did so, why would you also not safely assist an emergency by breaking the law if it were safe to do so ?

Or is it the case that those who don't speed would be more likely & willing to contravene the red light for an emergency (as an unselfish act for another's benefit), than the habitual speeder who would not (as a selfish act - because they only break the law for their own benefit) ?

It's an interesting question.

I try to drive legally, with the exception of making progress where the national speed limit applies and conditions allow.

In my case, I wouldn't knowingly speed in view of a traffic officer or camera. I would be conflicted when considering whether to run a red light, safely, in order to assist the emergency services if I knew I would be punished.

WilliBetz

'Tis indeed an interesting question. It has certainly been posed on here before (not by His Von'ness).

Bizarrely, the concensus then seemed to be that many drivers would definitely speed if they knew it was safe. But those same drivers would not break the red, even if they knew it was safe.

At one point they tried to excuse it by saying that they would not cross they red if they knew it was safe, because it may be unsafe, but I think that was straw clutching.

Ask the question in the Pub, it always gets them going. It seems that those who say they will break the law by speeding if it's safe also need to add "and I can get also away with it". If they admitted that it would perhaps explains some of the complaints on here.

BFF

Your argument appears to me to be grounded on an assumption of situational and consequential equivalence between jumping a red and exceeding a limit that some people, myself included, do not believe exists.

There were many who said they would speed if they knew it was perfectly safe to do so. But they wouldn't break a red if they knew it was perfectly safe to do so.

You cannot have it both ways. If you are prepared to break the law when it is safe (in your opinion) to do so, then break them all when it is safe to do so.

Picking and choosing the bits that apply makes you the same as those on here that object to speed limits and automatic enforcement, but who condemn any driver caught in excess of 100mph in motorway roadworks (as an example) without knowing all the facts. I would see him booked, but why them?

BFF

Edited by Big Fat F'r on Monday 26th November 12:51

[RT106]

Vipers said:

Personally, I wouldn't jump the lights, s'pose you hit a pedestrian or another vehicle coming across the Green, explain that to the Judge.

But you look before you move out of the way! I'd hardly think it was a good idea to pull out into a dual carriageway with cars hammering past at 70mph just to let an ambulance through, but if there was somewhere safe to position the car past the stop line I'd move there every time. I have eyes and a brain and am quite capable of making that judgement.

I speed when I think it's safe to do so. I don't believe for a second that on a clear motorway it's perfectly safe to do 69.99mph, but horendously dangerous to do 70.01mph. Similarly, driving past a primary school at 3:30pm you won't find me doing 30mph just because it says so on a sign; more often than not I'm the one doing 15mph with a queue of MPVs behind me. It's all about judgement. Similarly I'm more than happy to jump a red light if doing so will help the emergency services and I judge there's no risk involved, and I'll happily take that up with a judge if I'm asked to.

On a slightly different note... There's a signalised cross-roads near where I live. It's signalised because at peak times there's major congestion. But at 2am there's hardly any traffic. Usually at that time of night the signals are very good; as you approach a red light they change immediately. A couple of years ago the junction was re-surfaced, and unsurprisingly the contractor cut through the inductive loops in the road so the signals reverted back to their fail-safe timer mode. For six months before they were fixed it wasn't uncommon to sit at a red-light for three or four minutes waiting for them to change to green. But with perfect visibility along every arm of the junction, why wait? Who would jump the red in that situation?

[7db]

Big Fat F'r said:

It certainly was, 7, but I thought you would want to be kept out of it.
BFF

Edited by Big Fat F'r on Monday 26th November 12:45

I'm not sure you now me very well!

[Vipers]

RT106 said:

Vipers said:

Personally, I wouldn't jump the lights, s'pose you hit a pedestrian or another vehicle coming across the Green, explain that to the Judge.

But you look before you move out of the way!

I understand what you are saying, but I dont think its worth for all the agrevation of being caught on camera, and have to either attend court, or just pay up, either which I can do with out.

That is the single reason I would stay put I'm afraid.

[Graebob]

I have to say that I would definitely move out of the way, even if it resulted in me getting points. I'd be disappointed in the system for the blanket response of issuing said points, but it's got to be worth moving out of the way for an emergency.

In my experience, most traffic lights have a little bit of "wiggle room" that it would be possible to move into - if you were at the front of a queue of traffic - to get out of the way of blues and twos behind you. I would not expect being in this room to trigger the "safety" camera either, if all you did was move say 6-8ft out of the way diagonally, rather than straight forward (which ought to be more than enough). Generally even at traffic lights, oncoming traffic on a green will hear and see the approaching emergency vehicle too and would alter their behaviour accordingly (stopping despite the green) and I wouldn't move until I was satisfied that it was safe to do so.

It all really comes down to ensuring you have adequate space around you and are aware of what is going on, so you can safely and efficiently move in good time.

Just my 2p

[7db]

RT106 said:

For six months before they were fixed it wasn't uncommon to sit at a red-light for three or four minutes waiting for them to change to green. But with perfect visibility along every arm of the junction, why wait? Who would jump the red in that situation?

Or - perhaps more common - short sections of temporary lights where you can see the other light with no-one waiting there, and also that the photoelectric cell has been knocked out of position so it can't see you.

I wait.

[Vipers]

RT106 said:

Vipers said:

Personally, I wouldn't jump the lights, s'pose you hit a pedestrian or another vehicle coming across the Green, explain that to the Judge.

But you look before you move out of the way! I'd hardly think it was a good idea to pull out into a dual carriageway with cars hammering past at 70mph just to let an ambulance through, but if there was somewhere safe to position the car past the stop line I'd move there every time. I have eyes and a brain and am quite capable of making that judgement.

My bold

I know its an old post, just trawling around, re-reading your post, you are absolutely right of course, but I dont trust the judge to have a brain and capable of making a judgement in my favour that I moved past a red light to let an ambulance past, when there is no ambulance driver to back me up, sorry, wouldnt do it.

[Observer2]

7db said:

RT106 said:

For six months before they were fixed it wasn't uncommon to sit at a red-light for three or four minutes waiting for them to change to green. But with perfect visibility along every arm of the junction, why wait? Who would jump the red in that situation?

Or - perhaps more common - short sections of temporary lights where you can see the other light with no-one waiting there, and also that the photoelectric cell has been knocked out of position so it can't see you.

I wait.

How long?

And (in similar vein) what about:

1) short section of temporary lights where you have observed one or more vehicles enter from the other end then the next in line stops (so clearly the lights have turned red at the other end). Do you anticipate the change to green (assuming last oncoming vehicle has cleared, of course);

2) as above but vehicles at both ends have been waiting for (say) 30 seconds without change in lights (so almost certain malfunction).

[Rafferj]

I actually didn't know this law, and would have normally rolled out of the way to let an emergency vehicle through.

From now on however, they can sit behind me and wait their turn ! Not worth the risk of getting done for going through a red light (not a nice code for insurance policies I can assure you).

What a silly law! Common sense should appply, cant believe people have actually been done for moving out of the way!? As long as you'renot accelerating through the lights into other vehicles, to roll forward a few feet would seem common sense to me

[RT106]

Rafferj said:

What a silly law! Common sense should appply, cant believe people have actually been done for moving out of the way!? As long as you'renot accelerating through the lights into other vehicles, to roll forward a few feet would seem common sense to me

I'm assuming the people who've been convicted for this didn't just roll out of the way.

[Gromit37]

I think it would be fair to say, that if it is not safe for you to proceed through the lights, the emergency vehicle behind would not proceed either, so there is little point in taking the risk. However, simple observations will tell you if it is safe. Even if all you can do is make the vehicle behind aware that you have seen them, and move forward/over slightly, they will no doubt appreciate it.

[Tonsko]

I'm sure they will. But the traffic light camera will not care. Points and a fine.

[supermono]

RT106 said:

I'm assuming the people who've been convicted for this didn't just roll out of the way.

If I was running a scam like this I'd take 60 quid off everyone I could. After all everyone has a hard luck story, right? Plus I'd have the law on my side AND I can treat them as guilty unless they are prepared to face an increased penalty to attempt to weasel out of it. You go through that red light, buddy, and I'm charging you 60 quid!

Easy money!

SM

[Medic-one]

Tonsko said:

I'm sure they will. But the traffic light camera will not care. Points and a fine.

As said before :

1) The ambulance (or other Emergency vehicle) will be in 1 of the pictures as well.
2) If not, contact the local service you moved out of the way for and they will be able to give you details of which vehicle was at what point at what location and will be able to put that in writing for you, ive seen it happen before.

So, no points, no fine. You happy, we happy.

[WilliBetz]

Medic-one said:

Tonsko said:

I'm sure they will. But the traffic light camera will not care. Points and a fine.

As said before :

1) The ambulance (or other Emergency vehicle) will be in 1 of the pictures as well.
2) If not, contact the local service you moved out of the way for and they will be able to give you details of which vehicle was at what point at what location and will be able to put that in writing for you, ive seen it happen before.

So, no points, no fine. You happy, we happy.

Unfortunately, there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that it doesn't always work that way. Even a traffic officer gesticulating frantically does not, apparently, constitute an instruction and exemption to pass a red light. People have, allegedly, the points to prove it.

So, potential for points and a fine. You unaffected, we miserable.

[BOF]

Medic-one said:

Tonsko said:

I'm sure they will. But the traffic light camera will not care. Points and a fine.

As said before :

1) The ambulance (or other Emergency vehicle) will be in 1 of the pictures as well.
2) If not, contact the local service you moved out of the way for and they will be able to give you details of which vehicle was at what point at what location and will be able to put that in writing for you, ive seen it happen before.

So, no points, no fine. You happy, we happy.

As posted above...

Monday 26th November
As posted sometime before on the subject, I moved though a red light outside Chelmsford Police HQ to help an Ambulance pass..there was a Police car at the opposite red light...

Noted the time, e mailed Essex Police later and got a very courteous reply with a name and a reference to quote if I received a ticket...which I never did.

The 'system' is not always out to get us...

BOF.

[coopz7]

basically my opinion on this matter is that i am a firefighter in oxfordshire and like the icident that you explained about they should move to make way and a car can cross a red light to allow and emergency service vehicle through only if it is safe to do so