Advanced / Police Driver Training
Discussion
Bigends said:
Nice example of the modern response driver- sloppy or what?? Clearly no longer have time to keep two hands on the wheel - or watcw where theyre going
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTo8VAoieEM
You didn't see (or don't think) that ever happen in prior decades?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTo8VAoieEM
Of course this clearly isnt the norm - I never said it was. ..and no, in my 30 odd years of Police driving (25yrs response -last drove on blues 2 months before retiring in '05) I was never in a car with anyone driving as poorly as matey boy on this video though of course there would have been equally poor drivers in 'my day' I'd have been mortified if i'd hit another car in the manner that he did - and quite what he was doing moving the cars afterwards??
Edited by Bigends on Thursday 7th December 15:23
Nice one Bigends, so true and you only have to accidentally switch on one of these rubbish Police camera action programmes to see how poor Police driving usually, not always is. Someone said that I was bitter and have probably been done for a trivial traffic offence! Quite the opposite, since leaving the job I have never been prosecuted for any traffic offences, of course driving a 911GT3 I never commit any!! I am certainly not bitter and still have the upmost respect for the Police in every way whether driving or fighting crime. I have stated a few facts that are true, I still have friends in the job of various different ranks all of whom are sadly counting the days to retirement for the reasons I have mentioned, lack of training due to financial constraints, being surrounded by several, not all officers who have been employed since minimum height and various other criteria were removed for recruitment, enough said!
They also laugh and joke regularly about the standard of driving and I think I heard that the category Class 1 was stopped as it made them too elitist and made the lesser drivers feel insecure and that they were failures, 125MPH someone says on a basic response course nowadays, yeah dream on!
They also laugh and joke regularly about the standard of driving and I think I heard that the category Class 1 was stopped as it made them too elitist and made the lesser drivers feel insecure and that they were failures, 125MPH someone says on a basic response course nowadays, yeah dream on!
Bigends said:
Nice example of the modern response driver- sloppy or what?? Clearly no longer have time to keep two hands on the wheel - or watcw where theyre going
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTo8VAoieEM
Maybe there was something to be said for the metal ruler system! Hope he was prosecuted. Both driving and attitude stinks.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTo8VAoieEM
Edited by Bigends on Thursday 7th December 14:12
waremark said:
Maybe there was something to be said for the metal ruler system! Hope he was prosecuted. Both driving and attitude stinks.
That didn't/doesn't stop it, plenty who were trained that way do/did the same.You can't force people to do something once they've left you, they've got to want to do it for themselves & for that they have do adopt it within their own personal value system.
That's why the (historically overlooked) way they are trained is every bit as important as what they are trained in.
You've got maximise the time to address their values if you want them to exhibit the desirable values.
The ruler might work with some but the delivery system needs to be flexible enough to deal with individuals styles of learning. One doesn't fit all.
Being double crewed (on Area cars) with drivers of a similar or higher grade certainly meant I for one kept an eye on my driving standards as criticism was quick to come from the observers seat. Driving with one hand on the gear lever would result in a whack across the knuckles or knee with the radio handset.
My old force driving school (county) had its own classrooms and lecture hall with cutaway engines, gearboxes etc for mechanical instruction. Whilst away on a course we were totally immersed in driving from arriving in the morning till home time. First session of the day was all courses from learners to advanced into one room for ten minutes where instructors would fire questions from the highway code or roadcraft at individuals. Youd get stopped at any time by the driving school inspector who would also want a correct answer for any questions he cared to fire at you. There were no interruptions from area other than the odd court warning. Uneccessary bullshi*? - maybe - maybe not. Then out to the cars - first driver nominated - car checked over from top to bottom - all pile in - cockpit drill - then off for the day. Regular check tests by other instructors throughout the course. Instruction was relaxed but firm. We also had our own skid pan
Back to HQ - wash and garage the cars and home.
I was fortunate enough to have been taught from scratch as a Cadet, followed by my standard course a few months later - I was out driving alone - on blues - as we could then - less than four months after leaving training school as well as being van qualified at 19.
Response course came 6 - 7 years later when I had sufficient experience to handle whatever was likely to arise at the end of the journey - not point arriving first if you dont have a clue what to do when you get there is there?
I never had a knock in my whole time driving at work or private - so they obviously got something right. I'm not sure what else the modern officer could want in training.
My old force driving school (county) had its own classrooms and lecture hall with cutaway engines, gearboxes etc for mechanical instruction. Whilst away on a course we were totally immersed in driving from arriving in the morning till home time. First session of the day was all courses from learners to advanced into one room for ten minutes where instructors would fire questions from the highway code or roadcraft at individuals. Youd get stopped at any time by the driving school inspector who would also want a correct answer for any questions he cared to fire at you. There were no interruptions from area other than the odd court warning. Uneccessary bullshi*? - maybe - maybe not. Then out to the cars - first driver nominated - car checked over from top to bottom - all pile in - cockpit drill - then off for the day. Regular check tests by other instructors throughout the course. Instruction was relaxed but firm. We also had our own skid pan
Back to HQ - wash and garage the cars and home.
I was fortunate enough to have been taught from scratch as a Cadet, followed by my standard course a few months later - I was out driving alone - on blues - as we could then - less than four months after leaving training school as well as being van qualified at 19.
Response course came 6 - 7 years later when I had sufficient experience to handle whatever was likely to arise at the end of the journey - not point arriving first if you dont have a clue what to do when you get there is there?
I never had a knock in my whole time driving at work or private - so they obviously got something right. I'm not sure what else the modern officer could want in training.
M Barret said:
Blimey VH, I would guess that you are now a politician coming out with such drivel!!
No I just had an open enough mind to consider that I didn't know it all or automatically knew best. I listened to the criticism of others, in particular those who were most important - That is the honest feedback from candidates who now had nothing to lose - both those who had been successful & the unsuccessful. Not a case of keep the evidence of praise & bin the evidence of criticism scenario. Looked at the research/evidence & consulted with (sought out) experts from a far wider field, then armed with it all I also honestly reflected on my own past training/experiences including the behaviours I both witnessed in others & committed to myself. There's a lot of resistance to change, protectionism, it's insular & self appreciating, doing it this way because it's always been done that way, enormous egos, contempt for & lack of recognition for outside experts (they can't know, they've never done) & intransigence. All that leads to the training becoming less relevant, not more relevant. At the heart of it should be the well being, needs & development of the candidate & for that you need to ask the right questions & employ active listening to their voice, rather than liking the sound of your own so much that it becomes the only voice/opinion in the car.
Thankfully it's not all like that, but there was a lot of old guard protectionism to be eroded.
The DVSA saw the light quicker & started moving quicker. It's a long process but worth the effort.
Mahatma Gandhi said:
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Exactly Bigends and if you turned up on parade improperly dressed, ie the wrong or un polished foot wear or unpressed trousers etc you didn’t even start the day! You only have to look at the majority of policemen or women nowadays and the state of their dress to see that any discipline of this type is well and truly a thing of the past, when was the last time you saw a cap being worn by car crew dealing with accidents or incidents, I can’t remember! And before someone chirps in with a comment like nowadays a cap is not a priority if getting out of a Ford Mondeo having just chased a bandit car at 160 MPH for 40 miles then chasing a suspect on foot at 40 MPH across busy roads and jumping ten foot fences as I’m sure happens nowadays, I am referring to when they are out of the car dealing with non urgent matters.
Edited by M Barrett on Thursday 7th December 19:57
For about 20 years from 1993 I was very involved in (civilian) advanced driving. I had the huge privilege of being coached by some great drivers, police and not, in some lovely cars on road and track. Sometimes we drove quickly, sometimes not.
Driving well is just as important to me now as it was then. But reading this thread is a salutary reminder of why I don't now spend much time in the "advanced driving" world. The key thing all the best drivers I sat next to had in common was mindset. Specifically, they were very humble. I'm absolutely delighted that, on the occasions I went for a gear a fraction too early, no-one hit me with a ruler. Your mileage may vary.
But please don't let me get in the way of a really good flame war about who went faster on their advanced course. As you were.
Driving well is just as important to me now as it was then. But reading this thread is a salutary reminder of why I don't now spend much time in the "advanced driving" world. The key thing all the best drivers I sat next to had in common was mindset. Specifically, they were very humble. I'm absolutely delighted that, on the occasions I went for a gear a fraction too early, no-one hit me with a ruler. Your mileage may vary.
But please don't let me get in the way of a really good flame war about who went faster on their advanced course. As you were.
M Barrett said:
Blimey VH, I would guess that you are now a politician coming out with such drivel!!
That is not drivel, it's simply recognising human nature.What he's doing is recognising that people don't always continue to do what they were trained to do when the training ends. When they 'escape' from the detailed supervision they'll tend to do what they truly believe in, and if they're not fully sold on what they've been taught, the quality of driving produced during training will not be sustained, and they'll simply do what they feel to be adequate, which may or may not be satisfactory in relation to the work for which they were trained.
jamesallport said:
For about 20 years from 1993 I was very involved in (civilian) advanced driving. I had the huge privilege of being coached by some great drivers, police and not, in some lovely cars on road and track. Sometimes we drove quickly, sometimes not.
Driving well is just as important to me now as it was then. But reading this thread is a salutary reminder of why I don't now spend much time in the "advanced driving" world. The key thing all the best drivers I sat next to had in common was mindset. Specifically, they were very humble. I'm absolutely delighted that, on the occasions I went for a gear a fraction too early, no-one hit me with a ruler. Your mileage may vary.
But please don't let me get in the way of a really good flame war about who went faster on their advanced course. As you were.
Hello James, not heard from you for a while. I hope you are well.Driving well is just as important to me now as it was then. But reading this thread is a salutary reminder of why I don't now spend much time in the "advanced driving" world. The key thing all the best drivers I sat next to had in common was mindset. Specifically, they were very humble. I'm absolutely delighted that, on the occasions I went for a gear a fraction too early, no-one hit me with a ruler. Your mileage may vary.
But please don't let me get in the way of a really good flame war about who went faster on their advanced course. As you were.
You may remember meeting my infamous friend TripleS on the very first ADUK driving day.
There were only four of us that day; yourself, Nick Fearn, StressedDave and the hooligan from up North - who really didn't know what advanced driving was all about, and still doesn't!
M Barrett said:
VH definitely a Politician zzzzzzzz
Wow, I wouldn't normally post on here and having had my debates with VH over the years, we have often disagreed. I think you should grab your pipe and slippers and go back to the "that's the way we've always done it" brigade. You truly are a dinosaur!I joined 25 years ago and aways had shiny shoes and a smart tunic, spent 40 minutes in parade, stood for the gaffa and then spent an hour playing table tennis to determine on a daily basis the station champ. On nights we'd have a blast around the local racing track in the Maestro as we had the key for it in case there were intruders.
Now parade might last 5-10 minutes but by the end the majority of officers have already gone to a job, often turning out 20 minutes before parade. Am I bothered that they don't stand when I walk in, Nope. Standards now are under far more scrutiny then they ever were when you guys got away with the Dover run on nights.
1980 there were 2.5 million crimes compared to over 5 million today. We have the same number of officers now as we did in 1982 only we're twice as busy. So standards of dress may have dropped in your eyes but its more practical than back in the day when you seldom got out the Jag, even to smoke your pipe! But you did always wash the car before handing it over to the next crew.
I reckon since they got rid of those height restrictions, its all gone down hill. How could a 5ft 8" officer possibly drive as well as a 6ft 2" one?
VH is spot on!
Edited by playtent on Saturday 16th December 12:06
ADUK Advance driving day, absolutely says it all!! What ridiculously ignorant pathetic posts which show that you are probably about as good at Policing as you are at driving. You’ve said it yourself, yeah there are twice as many crimes now as in the 80’s and the reason is because the detection rate is so poor that committing crime these days is a fairly safe bet with little to no chance of getting caught! I have a friend who did his thirty in the Met and now has a very successful legal company with a team of Solicitors visiting Police stations throughout Southern England. He regularly relays most entertaining stories to me well actually very sad stories where very very regularly people have been arrested with NO evidence and on him pointing this out in the custody suite the suspect is released with NFA. On some of these occasions compensation has been awarded and the idiot uniform carrier concerned has kept his job! Frightening!
You are clearly bitter and insecure too to suggest that I am a troll because you don’t like my opinions. Yes I agree I have wound you up but you have probably been an easy wind up throughout your service, every relief or team as they call them now has someone that is good play value and clearly I have got one on the hook good and proper! Calm down, chill out and just admit that I’m right!
You are clearly bitter and insecure too to suggest that I am a troll because you don’t like my opinions. Yes I agree I have wound you up but you have probably been an easy wind up throughout your service, every relief or team as they call them now has someone that is good play value and clearly I have got one on the hook good and proper! Calm down, chill out and just admit that I’m right!
Edited by M Barrett on Sunday 17th December 18:29
Oh one more thing that maybe playtent would comment on. He seems to forgive the Police for looking like sacks of Sh.. nowadays as they are so busy, ha ha. How about our armed services, Royal Marines, RAF, Paras etc who really do have a more difficult job today a fact that I don’t think anyone can disput with more cut backs but their dress and appearance is as it always was, impeccable!
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