A question of good progress
Discussion
If I am following a flow of traffic at about 45-50mph in an NSL and I know the stretch of road isn't particularly long (before much lower limits) I'm becoming increasingly pragmatic and asking myself 'is it worth it overtaking?' to which I answer, no. At best, I might get past two or three cars and still be in the same flow of traffic.
On the bike I would endeavour to overtake the whole traffic queue but given the performance and size of the car, this isn't possible.
Does this constitute not making good progress and missing of overtakes?
On the bike I would endeavour to overtake the whole traffic queue but given the performance and size of the car, this isn't possible.
Does this constitute not making good progress and missing of overtakes?
thunderbelmont said:That pretty much sums it upl. If I judge there is anything to gain (and that might just be an unhindered fast drive through a set of corners I like) then I'll overtake. I just wondered if 'to make good progress' you should take every (safe) overtake.
If I am following a flow of traffic at about 45-50mph in an NSL and I know the stretch of road isn't particularly long (before much lower limits) I'm becoming increasingly pragmatic and asking myself 'is it worth it overtaking?' to which I answer, no. At best, I might get past two or three cars and still be in the same flow of traffic.
On the bike I would endeavour to overtake the whole traffic queue but given the performance and size of the car, this isn't possible.
Does this constitute not making good progress and missing of overtakes?
In your situation, you made the right choice. The answer is no. You are pressuring yourself to "be in front" a problem that has plagued the driving on our roads for far too long. To be one or two cars ahead, why bother. You will be making up just a couple of seconds, but stressing yourself in the process. Chill out, why bother.
thunderbelmont said:I daresay it doesn't take me any longer to pass; when I'm overtaking, the speed limit is a secondary consideration.
The safest way to overtake is as fast as possible, I was once told by a police instructor how many seconds is considered safe... something like 12, which is the time taken from Mirror/signal....... to pulling in fully. When I used to run my old Nova Sport race car on the road, following a car at 50, I could pass it in about 6 seconds from indicate/tread on gas, to pull back in (and lift off to resume NSL).
Rob
Big Fat F'er said:
Couple of quick points, if I may be so bold, since this in the Advnaced section.
1) To make good progress, you should make the overtake, where it is safe to do so (working to point 2 below). That way you are always in a position to make even more progress, where the circumstances allow. So, you should overtake, then reduce speed where appropriate to the limits, then speed up when NSL, overtaking where appropriate. That makes good progress. So if you don't do it, it's not the end of the world, you are just not making the progress you should make.
2) You shouldn't break the limit when overtaking. There isn't a "ha ha, what about..." exception. You shouldn't do it. So if you are at 50mph, in the NSL, and there isn't sufficient space to safely overtake without going above 60mph, then you shouldn't overtake. Same on the motorway, at 70mph limit. Etc., etc., etc. All the Advanced Systems are very clear on this. You dont break the limit to overtake. You may decide to do so. Then you are in the wrong.BFF
Can't argue with anything you've said. You are technically 100% correct. Any flexibility I exercise with the speed limit is my choice. I'll always look to minimise TED and complete overtakes as quickly as possible as that is safer - just not necessarily legal.
GreenV8S said:In about 1990 a friend of mine bought an Uno Turbo - a car that was substantially faster than the average car back then. Even given my inexperience at the time I could see that full chat overtaking meant he passed the queue TOO FAST - not that a 19 year old will listen too much to criticism!
There's something else that goes wrong with multiple overtakes. If you accelerate during the whole overtake, you end up with potentially very high closing speeds, eveything happens much quicker (less time for them to notice you, less time for you to avoid them if they don't), you have to commit much further back, you need much longer to slow down and fit back into a gap, all the risks are increased.
In the car or on the bike, I try to keep my passing speed proportional to the queue.
Big Fat F'er said:Tell that to the Class 1s when they're on a call
If you can only get past the car in front by speeding, then you shouldn't do it. You may decide to do so, and it doesn't make you an evil person. But it does mean you are not 'Advanced'.
Failure to comply with a traffic law doesn't necessarily preclude you from being Advanced. I presume it would mean you wouldn't pass your IAM test but the term Advanced has a much broader meaning than that. For example, there are slightly different approaches taken by IAM and ROSPA aren't there?
(Incidentally, I've been out riding with Class Ones and they do make effortless progress)
GreenV8S said:
What's worth discussing IMO is whether the law is a useful one, what is the best way for it to be enforced, and what is the best way for drivers to respond to it.
Just to say that the law should be obeyed scrupulously regardless of circumstances may give a warm fuzzy feeling of being on the moral high ground but I think is unrealistic and actually undesirable. Based on the behaviour of the people I see on the roads, most people don't bother sticking to the speed limit most of the time. And they're right not to, because there's no reason to except to the extent that it is enforced, and there's no reason it should be enforce d and various reasons why it shouldn't.
Speed limits have their uses but are not *particularly* valuable IMO. Enforcement of speed limits does harm as well as good, and it is important to maximise the good and minimise the harm. Simply saying that everyone must obey the law doesn't get us anywhere interesting.
Just to say that the law should be obeyed scrupulously regardless of circumstances may give a warm fuzzy feeling of being on the moral high ground but I think is unrealistic and actually undesirable. Based on the behaviour of the people I see on the roads, most people don't bother sticking to the speed limit most of the time. And they're right not to, because there's no reason to except to the extent that it is enforced, and there's no reason it should be enforce d and various reasons why it shouldn't.
Speed limits have their uses but are not *particularly* valuable IMO. Enforcement of speed limits does harm as well as good, and it is important to maximise the good and minimise the harm. Simply saying that everyone must obey the law doesn't get us anywhere interesting.
They should be SPEED GUIDES instead of LIMITS but then I'm sure we all appreciate that would introduce too much OPINION into speed prosecutions. Crikey. My longest ever thread - not that I've been in it much!
It is unfair for everybody to jump on BFF (metaphorically) as he has his opinion and he hasn't been overly heavy handed in his proferring of it. IAM and THE SYSTEM are rigidly set out with firm rules and guidelines. If you want to be Advanced in their definition then you have to stick to their rules - and that includes their rules on speeding.
My opening question was whether I should take every overtaking opportunity within the confines of the speed limit. To fit in with the IAM's rules, I should. This means I should not drive at 55mph if I could drive at 60 (in an NSL). By their rules, I should also not drive at 65, but keep to 60.
It all seems a bit rigid to me. No allowance is made for personal judgement.
I'll get off the fence and repeat what I said earlier - that I don't see any harm in speed in appropriate places. I have done advanced motorcycle tuition (I even have an NVQ* in it) and I can say with some certainty that my instructors are from the same company as Mr Audis. I have taken valuable tools from that training and put them into practice but I don't follow every rule slavishly. So I am not Advanced - merely an enthusiastic amateur who seeks self improvement.
Interesting discussion though, chaps.
* Given out with 5 litres of oil?
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