Teaching youngsters to drive and associated hazards.
Discussion
So, the gf's son is taking driving lessons. I taught him the basics of car control before he started his lessons and he's now approaching test standard according to his instructor. Last night he wanted to show me how he had improved so we went out for a drive. His car control is very good so I suggested we go on some moderately tricky back roads so I could show him how to use the whole road and get clues to how to read the road from headlights, signage etc.
Now this is where it all started to go a bit pete tong.... He was reluctant to use the right side of the road on left handers but with a bit of help he started to get the hang of it. What he hadn't been taught (and I may just be encouraging him too soon) is adjusting his speed for bends. They come in three varieties it seems, slow medium and fast. That's it.
We were on roads I had never travelled before on purpose so he had to "read" the road. Before too long the inevitable happened, he got it woefully wrong on the approach to a tight bend and didn't scrub off enough speed. The gf squealed around the time I decided to intervene.... I pulled the handbrake on and pushed the wheel to help us get round but I could feel the rears trying to lock
Not being keen on trying to control a skid from the passenger seat I eased the handbrake a bit and we *just* got round. He seemed blissfully unaware of just how close we came to ending up in one of Lincolnshire's many dikes 
So we turn round and I drive the same series of bends with him passengering, exaggerating the car moving around, the apex etc and then get him to try the bend again himself. The next time he did much better and we carried on with me encouraging him to use as much of the road as possible when it was appropriate and look for clues as to where he should be going.
What shocked me is how close he is to test standard yet how little he actually has been taught about reading the road. That's not criticising the instructor whose job it is to get him through the test more realising why so many new drivers end up going off the road.
Now we've uncovered this we'll definitely be going out again frequently on the most awkward dark and plain nasty roads I can find before he passes his test
Any other areas that are often overlooked when youngsters are learning? I want to make the most of the time we can mould/improve his driving before he's unleashed on the world.
Now this is where it all started to go a bit pete tong.... He was reluctant to use the right side of the road on left handers but with a bit of help he started to get the hang of it. What he hadn't been taught (and I may just be encouraging him too soon) is adjusting his speed for bends. They come in three varieties it seems, slow medium and fast. That's it.
We were on roads I had never travelled before on purpose so he had to "read" the road. Before too long the inevitable happened, he got it woefully wrong on the approach to a tight bend and didn't scrub off enough speed. The gf squealed around the time I decided to intervene.... I pulled the handbrake on and pushed the wheel to help us get round but I could feel the rears trying to lock
Not being keen on trying to control a skid from the passenger seat I eased the handbrake a bit and we *just* got round. He seemed blissfully unaware of just how close we came to ending up in one of Lincolnshire's many dikes So we turn round and I drive the same series of bends with him passengering, exaggerating the car moving around, the apex etc and then get him to try the bend again himself. The next time he did much better and we carried on with me encouraging him to use as much of the road as possible when it was appropriate and look for clues as to where he should be going.
What shocked me is how close he is to test standard yet how little he actually has been taught about reading the road. That's not criticising the instructor whose job it is to get him through the test more realising why so many new drivers end up going off the road.
Now we've uncovered this we'll definitely be going out again frequently on the most awkward dark and plain nasty roads I can find before he passes his test
Any other areas that are often overlooked when youngsters are learning? I want to make the most of the time we can mould/improve his driving before he's unleashed on the world.
I'm trying teach him the techniques I covered in advanced motorcycling.... Overtaking is a good idea, but perhaps not yet after last nights little adventure He was also getting sucked along by quicker vehicles from time to time but I explained why it's not a good idea to follow and to try to set his own pace. I also suggested he use a single flick of the indicator when people were being held up a little and to ease off the accelerator if they were trying to get past.
I have taken him out in my car and demonstrated overtaking and planning how to minimise TED but I don't think he's ready just yet.
They *seem* to focus on setting a speed rather than constant micro adjustments for parked cars, curves etc. I know you can't teach experience but it bought it home to me how much they haven't covered when they pass the test.
I've also suggested he does a pass plus for insurance reasons and so as not to insult his ego too much.
I've probably got a couple of months but I'm glad we have the dark nights so I can at least get him some experience before he's on his own.
He was also getting sucked along by quicker vehicles from time to time but I explained why it's not a good idea to follow and to try to set his own pace. I also suggested he use a single flick of the indicator when people were being held up a little and to ease off the accelerator if they were trying to get past. I have taken him out in my car and demonstrated overtaking and planning how to minimise TED but I don't think he's ready just yet.
They *seem* to focus on setting a speed rather than constant micro adjustments for parked cars, curves etc. I know you can't teach experience but it bought it home to me how much they haven't covered when they pass the test.
I've also suggested he does a pass plus for insurance reasons and so as not to insult his ego too much.
I've probably got a couple of months but I'm glad we have the dark nights so I can at least get him some experience before he's on his own.
ipsg.glf said:
Do you not think there is the danger of overloading him with too much info and possibly compromising his DSA training?
Personally, I would wait until he has passed his test, get him through PassPlus and then through IAM.
Personally, I would wait until he has passed his test, get him through PassPlus and then through IAM.
Honestly? No, I think its better if he fails his test until he can handle the hazards the real world will throw at him. Why learn incorrectly and then have to unlearn bad habits? If he can pass the test but not spot a tightening apex he's not ready to be out on his own IMO.
SamHH said:
BliarOut said:
I also suggested he use a single flick of the indicator when people were being held up a little...
I assume you mean indicate left to show he is willing to be overtaken? Personally, I don't think that is a good idea. Even if it is not your intention, you are effectively saying "overtake me", thereby suggesting that it is safe to overtake. I would rather leave it entirely up to the person behind to decide whether it is safe to overtake.
Edited by SamHH on Tuesday 30th January 16:59
I'm a biker too, old habits die hard
TonyHetherington said:
It's interesting, Bliar, that going to the right hand side of the lane on left hand bends is my big "difficulty" thing...and I am an observer for the IAM and just embarking on HPC 
Don't get me wrong, I do it, but I always worry about someone cutting a lot of the corner coming towards!
Anyway, I am faced with a similar problem. My girlfriend (25) is just learning to drive and she has asked if I accompany her so she can get practice in. I, initially, said no as I thought there is no better way to have an argument than trying to teach your girlfriend to drive However we spoke about it at length and I agreed, (is this the right thing or not? 
).
So, how much do I teach?! Do we go full on IAM? Well my thoughts (not started yet, she's getting a car in a couple of weeks) is that - as you have done Bliar - hazard perception, good road positioning, and reading of hazards (be they bends, roundabouts etc). That will only be after she is confident behind the wheel though.
I think those skills will help somebody be alot smoother in their driving (forget whether it's to IAM standard or not!) and will help them to pass their test. Much more and I think it could confuse rather than help.
AFTER they've passed though, PassPlus and IAM all the way - invaluable!
Don't get me wrong, I do it, but I always worry about someone cutting a lot of the corner coming towards!
Anyway, I am faced with a similar problem. My girlfriend (25) is just learning to drive and she has asked if I accompany her so she can get practice in. I, initially, said no as I thought there is no better way to have an argument than trying to teach your girlfriend to drive
However we spoke about it at length and I agreed, (is this the right thing or not? ). So, how much do I teach?! Do we go full on IAM? Well my thoughts (not started yet, she's getting a car in a couple of weeks) is that - as you have done Bliar - hazard perception, good road positioning, and reading of hazards (be they bends, roundabouts etc). That will only be after she is confident behind the wheel though.
I think those skills will help somebody be alot smoother in their driving (forget whether it's to IAM standard or not!) and will help them to pass their test. Much more and I think it could confuse rather than help.
AFTER they've passed though, PassPlus and IAM all the way - invaluable!
Right side of the left lane? I use the right hand gutter if it's appropriate on left handers
I'm not trying to conflict with the DSA stuff but to tutor him in spotting hazards and generally equipping him to deal with the "gaps" in tuition and give him the best chance of avoiding a major cockup while he's in his early driving days. PassPlus is a definite as it'll help him with insurance (the "sell" if you like) and I've heard good things about it.
Lincolnshire has it's own set of problems on the backroads. They nearly all run alongside dikes and due to the fen soil frequently subside and try to throw the car straight in the dyke. If he hasn't been taught to drive down the centre and watch the undulations sooner or later he'll end up taking a bath and that's not a good sort of crash to have.
Fortunately he doesn't argue with my advice, one of the perks of being mums Porsche owning boyfriend I suppose
I agree IAM style is overkill for now, but when he's in the car I do it to show him how to make progress safely and smoothly.
However it didn't, which possibly vindicates my choice of car control methods.
I fully agree it's less than ideal, but I had a surprising amount of feel and I've used the "emergency brake" to give it's correct name on many occasions while driving myself. I'm accomplished at handbrake turns so it's not too difficult to feather the brake and slow things down without overly upsetting the car. I was very conscious of rear end grip and not invoking a slide that would have been bordering on uncorrectable from the passenger side.
It's not easy to describe a situation on t'internet so it may appear at cross purposes but bringing it to a dead stop wasn't really an option plus I don't know how good his reactions are. You're faced with a set of circumstances and you do your best to minimise the impact of a learners error. We had a fair margin for error but I'd say we used nearly every inch of it to recover
Fortunately I've discovered a weakness in his driving that we can work with and hopefully correct before he's on his own. As I mentioned, he's nearly up to test standard yet had he been on this road on his own he would have definitely gone off the road. I'll be taking him out a lot on difficult roads from now on and leave the DSA type stuff to the instructor. I'm hoping we get some really shitty weather at night before he passes as I think we should give that a go too.
If I achieve nothing more than demonstrating that he will make mistakes perhaps it'll keep him relatively safe until he can build his own experience.
I fully agree it's less than ideal, but I had a surprising amount of feel and I've used the "emergency brake" to give it's correct name on many occasions while driving myself. I'm accomplished at handbrake turns so it's not too difficult to feather the brake and slow things down without overly upsetting the car. I was very conscious of rear end grip and not invoking a slide that would have been bordering on uncorrectable from the passenger side.
It's not easy to describe a situation on t'internet so it may appear at cross purposes but bringing it to a dead stop wasn't really an option plus I don't know how good his reactions are. You're faced with a set of circumstances and you do your best to minimise the impact of a learners error. We had a fair margin for error but I'd say we used nearly every inch of it to recover
Fortunately I've discovered a weakness in his driving that we can work with and hopefully correct before he's on his own. As I mentioned, he's nearly up to test standard yet had he been on this road on his own he would have definitely gone off the road. I'll be taking him out a lot on difficult roads from now on and leave the DSA type stuff to the instructor. I'm hoping we get some really shitty weather at night before he passes as I think we should give that a go too.
If I achieve nothing more than demonstrating that he will make mistakes perhaps it'll keep him relatively safe until he can build his own experience.
We can turn this into a debate about me if you like, but as I was there and you weren't I'm always going to win as I am the only one in possession of the facts. Anything you wish to speculate about will be merely that, speculation. What would have happened if I told him to brake? I know the answer, but do you?
See, you don't know, do you? I made a decision while in possession of the full facts and acted in the way that my twenty five years of driving and advanced motorcycling instinctively told me was the best way to correct a mistake. It worked.
Now, we can get back on track of how unprepared youngsters are when they reach test standard, or we can have an internet fight. You choose, I've got all day here.
See, you don't know, do you? I made a decision while in possession of the full facts and acted in the way that my twenty five years of driving and advanced motorcycling instinctively told me was the best way to correct a mistake. It worked.
Now, we can get back on track of how unprepared youngsters are when they reach test standard, or we can have an internet fight. You choose, I've got all day here.
There wasn't sufficient distance to come to a halt at the point when it became apparent he had misjudged the corner. Ahead was a dyke, we would have gone into it had he tried to stop. The car didn't have ABS, would he have locked up and/or panicked if I had shouted at him to stop? I don't know and you certainly don't.
The emergency brake is there to use, I used it and helped him correct the steering at the same time. The only difference between my actions and those of an instructor is that I didn't have dual controls available so I used what was there.
Feel free to make this a debate about me if you want, but it was the best course of action under the circumstances.
So, are we going to get back on track about what the DSA test leaves uncovered or not?
The emergency brake is there to use, I used it and helped him correct the steering at the same time. The only difference between my actions and those of an instructor is that I didn't have dual controls available so I used what was there.
Feel free to make this a debate about me if you want, but it was the best course of action under the circumstances.
So, are we going to get back on track about what the DSA test leaves uncovered or not?
I do take your points, but, and it's a big but, he's almost at test standard now. Had he been on that road on his own he would have crashed into a dyke.
As I said in the initial posts, Lincolnshire has some very bad roads and I don't think it makes sense to let him loose when we can currently tutor him in techniques that may just save his bacon. Sure he may use them to push the performance envelope but I honestly don't think that's his style. Far better to teach him how to read the road from day one and how to maximise his chances of spotting potential hazards early.
Hazard perception is the one area young drivers fare badly on, while I have the opportunity I would rather work with him to improve his awareness.
The other thing is if we travel the majority of difficult roads with him driving supervised he has a far better chance of surviving until he can complete some additional third party training.
For the record I always insisted people didn't use "baby speak" when I bought my kids up. I see no point in learning something only to have to forget what you've just learned and learn it all anew.
As I said in the initial posts, Lincolnshire has some very bad roads and I don't think it makes sense to let him loose when we can currently tutor him in techniques that may just save his bacon. Sure he may use them to push the performance envelope but I honestly don't think that's his style. Far better to teach him how to read the road from day one and how to maximise his chances of spotting potential hazards early.
Hazard perception is the one area young drivers fare badly on, while I have the opportunity I would rather work with him to improve his awareness.
The other thing is if we travel the majority of difficult roads with him driving supervised he has a far better chance of surviving until he can complete some additional third party training.
For the record I always insisted people didn't use "baby speak" when I bought my kids up. I see no point in learning something only to have to forget what you've just learned and learn it all anew.
EmmaP said:
I think that most people underestimate the capacity of the brain to absorb information.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
Thanks Emma, cheque or cash again? I bet it's cash
ipsg.glf said:
EmmaP said:
I think that most people underestimate the capacity of the brain to absorb information.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
I had an excellent driving instructor that incorporated many advanced driving principles concerning observation. I think that Blairout's plan to teach hazard perception is an excellent idea as an add on to the lad's basic driving tuition. I would recommend that any new driver gets additional tuition on car handling and vehicle dynamics in order to prepare them for loss of car control. (I am certain that if I had not had my father in the car with me when I lost control of my car I would have caused a terrible accident with catastrophic effects.)
I think that the basic test is poor in terms of teaching vehicle control. I was only discussing with a friend last week - also an advanced driver - about how treacherous Lincolnshire roads were because of the dykes.
EmmaP
I agree 100% with every word except that he should not try to overload the young lad. If he does too much advanced stuff too early, the youngster might get confused. I'd hate to see him fail his DSA test because on an overtake he went out for a look first.
Conversely I'd hate to see him crash because he didn't know how to overtake safely. Perhaps a bit more background would help.
Friend from his school last year. Dead. His cousin went in a dyke with three friends in the car. Fortunately the crash took out the windows and they all got out alive from a submerged car but the outcome could have been very different.
I would feel irresponsible if I didn't take him out to face the sort of roads he's likely to travel on his own when he actually passes his test and do my best to equip him to spot the hazards and deal with them safely. Passing the test doesn't do that.
I'm not trying to get him driving to IAM standards (this thread started out in General Gassing) I'm trying to teach him sufficient skills so that he can stay alive. Giving a young man a car and telling him he can drive won't teach him that he's full of vulnerabilities or that he will make mistakes.
Roads where he lives can run dead straight alongside dykes for miles and then suddenly turn without warning. Where there are trees the road can undulate violently and literally push a car into the water if you're not prepared for it. They don't teach that on the test, they teach how to drive at the speed limit and basic machine control. Remember the driver I mentioned, he had passed his test but no-one took him out on the back roads before.
If what I teach him slows him down and it means he's more experienced when he is eventually allowed out on his own is that really a bad thing? Surely one of the things we all believe here on PH is better training, not rigid compliance with the rules?
PS. I passed my advanced motorcycling way back in 1982
Roads where he lives can run dead straight alongside dykes for miles and then suddenly turn without warning. Where there are trees the road can undulate violently and literally push a car into the water if you're not prepared for it. They don't teach that on the test, they teach how to drive at the speed limit and basic machine control. Remember the driver I mentioned, he had passed his test but no-one took him out on the back roads before.
If what I teach him slows him down and it means he's more experienced when he is eventually allowed out on his own is that really a bad thing? Surely one of the things we all believe here on PH is better training, not rigid compliance with the rules?
PS. I passed my advanced motorcycling way back in 1982
All of it, a couple of times.
Not crashing into dykes is more important than passing the test IMO. If it takes him longer to pass (which I doubt) so what?
You go in a dyke you have 30 seconds to evacuate the car in potentially freezing water however smashed up you are. No if's no but's and no waiting for the fire brigade to extricate you. 30 seconds. Failure to follow this simple rule and it's game over and no second chances.
What if he doesn't live long enough to take the IAM instruction? What then?
Not crashing into dykes is more important than passing the test IMO. If it takes him longer to pass (which I doubt) so what?
You go in a dyke you have 30 seconds to evacuate the car in potentially freezing water however smashed up you are. No if's no but's and no waiting for the fire brigade to extricate you. 30 seconds. Failure to follow this simple rule and it's game over and no second chances.
What if he doesn't live long enough to take the IAM instruction? What then?
Meanwhile in the real world..... He's worked hard and saved to buy a car and pay for his lessons. When he's passed his test he will (rightly) be free to gain his independence. He's on the cusp of becoming a man and could bear arms for his country. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that he can't go out on his own once he's passed his test and I would expect a "you can
right off" if it was even suggested. So, do you have any tips on areas that are weak on the DSA stuff or not?
EmmaP said:
gridgway said:
You need to inspire him to aspire to good driving, to aspire to improve, you need to warn him of the dangers, talk to him a lot, make sure he gets to know all these 'unknown' roads, show your confidence in him, make him want to make you proud and not let you down, get him engaged in an improvement programme.
Top advice, reinforcing the power of positive thought. If you tell someone that they are going to fail/make a mistake they most certainly will as their brain will tell them that. I'd be suprised if Bliarout was doing this though.
Thanks again Emma...
Sometimes I despair with the internet..... "Meeeh, you don't want to do it like that, you want to do it like this"[/HarryEnfield]
So at what point exactly after his test does his brain metamorphose and he suddenly does posses this mysterious talent of understanding basic concepts?
Tight on lefts, wide on rights, watch the point where the road meets and see if it's approaching or disappearing.
Do you know what, it took me about half an hour to grasp it aged seventeen...
gridgway said:
BliarOut said:
Tight on lefts, wide on rights, watch the point where the road meets and see if it's approaching or disappearing.
Do you know what, it took me about half an hour to grasp it aged seventeen...
Do you know what, it took me about half an hour to grasp it aged seventeen...
Don't you mean wide on lefts and tight on rights?
Graham
Doh, I was annoyed
Whoops, there goes another one....
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