Discussion
Don't you just time yourself though? In the old days pretty much everyone would have had a simple stopwatch on their wrist and nowadays smart/sports watches are commonplace and add some fun. Even an old duffer like me uses one religiously for walks.
Or Parkrun just has names and times and no gender - which is the idea isn't it?
As I said earlier (and some others have said) how does Parkrun stop people just picking whichever gender category they like? And what if the people at the top of the lists are on drugs? Slightly silly point but it's just supposed to be a fun/healthy way to start the weekend isnt it?
Or Parkrun just has names and times and no gender - which is the idea isn't it?
As I said earlier (and some others have said) how does Parkrun stop people just picking whichever gender category they like? And what if the people at the top of the lists are on drugs? Slightly silly point but it's just supposed to be a fun/healthy way to start the weekend isnt it?
ben5575 said:
Is it absolutely gutting though?
I would imagine that like your son, if a woman is running at that level, a Parkrun is simply a thing on the side - it's a fun run for them. There are plenty of sanctioned events they can compete in for a record if they want to be the best.
To be clear, I'm not saying that it is acceptable for trans women to compete in races with women. It isn't.
In an ideal world, then of course Parkrun should individually vet every single entrant. But then again in the same ideal world, every single entrant would tell the truth. The reality is that it will be both expensive and time consuming for the organisation to do this. This potentially places the organisation at risk. Adding additional ID checks at registration just places yet another barrier to people entering and starting to run.
On a cost benefit basis, my view is that these additional barriers will stop far more people from starting to run than will ever be slightly upset that they may not be able to hold a record running around a park. But then I'm far from elite and I appreciate that people see this differently
It's clunky, but removing the records achieves this. Meanwhile many of thousands of people will be running at their local parkrun again this Saturday without giving it a second thought.
It doesn't need additional checks on registration. It can simply be kept in check by the community as anyone setting age group or course records will be known in the running community. A biological man running in the female category will be known. Considering the numbers involved will be tiny this is really easy to implement and once amended in the database, is finalised.I would imagine that like your son, if a woman is running at that level, a Parkrun is simply a thing on the side - it's a fun run for them. There are plenty of sanctioned events they can compete in for a record if they want to be the best.
To be clear, I'm not saying that it is acceptable for trans women to compete in races with women. It isn't.
In an ideal world, then of course Parkrun should individually vet every single entrant. But then again in the same ideal world, every single entrant would tell the truth. The reality is that it will be both expensive and time consuming for the organisation to do this. This potentially places the organisation at risk. Adding additional ID checks at registration just places yet another barrier to people entering and starting to run.
On a cost benefit basis, my view is that these additional barriers will stop far more people from starting to run than will ever be slightly upset that they may not be able to hold a record running around a park. But then I'm far from elite and I appreciate that people see this differently
It's clunky, but removing the records achieves this. Meanwhile many of thousands of people will be running at their local parkrun again this Saturday without giving it a second thought.
Edited by ben5575 on Tuesday 13th February 09:10
jeremyc said:
If Parkrun is all about the participation (for everyone), then surely they should just publish a list of finishers: no times, no age categories, no gender.
That still allows all of the Parkrun incentives and challenges, but removes all element of competition.
Surely the time is the main incentive/challenge? The whole point to me, and presumably lots of others, is about competing against myself. Am I quicker than I was last week, how close am I to the fastest I've been? Having my age and gender in the system allows the calculation of age graded performance, giving a better comparison to how I was doing 10 years ago than just my time.That still allows all of the Parkrun incentives and challenges, but removes all element of competition.
Yes we do obviously compete against people, but I'm competing against the people I see every week and know are about my pace. I'm not really that bothered about the ones fighting for top 5 positions as most of them have gone home by the time I finish.
I agree with the above though that if they're distancing themselves from the "race" aspects it's strange if they're still pushing results to England Athletics.
RizzoTheRat said:
jeremyc said:
If Parkrun is all about the participation (for everyone), then surely they should just publish a list of finishers: no times, no age categories, no gender.
That still allows all of the Parkrun incentives and challenges, but removes all element of competition.
Surely the time is the main incentive/challenge? The whole point to me, and presumably lots of others, is about competing against myself. Am I quicker than I was last week, how close am I to the fastest I've been? Having my age and gender in the system allows the calculation of age graded performance, giving a better comparison to how I was doing 10 years ago than just my time.That still allows all of the Parkrun incentives and challenges, but removes all element of competition.
Yes we do obviously compete against people, but I'm competing against the people I see every week and know are about my pace. I'm not really that bothered about the ones fighting for top 5 positions as most of them have gone home by the time I finish.
I agree with the above though that if they're distancing themselves from the "race" aspects it's strange if they're still pushing results to England Athletics.
There is no need from a Parkrun perspective to publish times or even finishing order, unless of course there is a real interest in competition and it's not just about taking part.
jeremyc said:
f as a personal challenge time is important you don't need Parkrun to publish that - it's easy to time yourself. There are plenty of apps that you can log it on, and that will calculate your age grading if you wish.
There is no need from a Parkrun perspective to publish times or even finishing order, unless of course there is a real interest in competition and it's not just about taking part.
Quite. I record my parkrun activity on a Garmin (Instinct 2) watch. The watch uploads things to the Garmin Connect app on myphone, which in turn automatically uploads to Strava. Strava compares my effort to my previous efforts AND everyone else's efforts on the 'Bournemouth Parkrun B Route' segment, and I can retrieve/compare my times on either platform. And the same "issue" persists on Strava and Garmin Connect as far as I can tell. Neither platform requires any proof of sex/gender/age when you set up an account. So I could "pretend" to be a 70-year-old woman online, in order to procure some age/sex/gender specific achievement or other. But I fail to understand what the incentive would be to do that? So I'm kind of at a loss as to why this inaccuracy/cheating is only an issue for parkrun. Just because parkrun use a timing app instead of GPS data to deliver a result doesn't mean it's any more or less likely to be open to opposition from biologically female runners usurped by transgender biological men in results tables. So why has parkrun seemingly been singled out in this regard?There is no need from a Parkrun perspective to publish times or even finishing order, unless of course there is a real interest in competition and it's not just about taking part.
yellowjack said:
So why has parkrun seemingly been singled out in this regard?
Good question. Probably because of it's high profile and popularity. No point the Daily Mail and the Telegraph running culture war type articles disparaging Garmin or Strava - most of their readers wouldn't have a clue what they were talking about
yellowjack said:
Quite. I record my parkrun activity on a Garmin (Instinct 2) watch. The watch uploads things to the Garmin Connect app on myphone, which in turn automatically uploads to Strava. Strava compares my effort to my previous efforts AND everyone else's efforts on the 'Bournemouth Parkrun B Route' segment, and I can retrieve/compare my times on either platform. And the same "issue" persists on Strava and Garmin Connect as far as I can tell. Neither platform requires any proof of sex/gender/age when you set up an account. So I could "pretend" to be a 70-year-old woman online, in order to procure some age/sex/gender specific achievement or other. But I fail to understand what the incentive would be to do that? So I'm kind of at a loss as to why this inaccuracy/cheating is only an issue for parkrun. Just because parkrun use a timing app instead of GPS data to deliver a result doesn't mean it's any more or less likely to be open to opposition from biologically female runners usurped by transgender biological men in results tables. So why has parkrun seemingly been singled out in this regard?
Yet, on Strava you can report cheating, and the community despite the huge amount of data does seem to manage this quite well.I would be equally appalled if Strava started to allow biological men to take records and achievements off women.
It was not difficult for Parkrun to defend biological women's achievements but they took the cowards approach, and now they've made it worse for all!
Ashfordian said:
Yet, on Strava you can report cheating, and the community despite the huge amount of data does seem to manage this quite well.
I would be equally appalled if Strava started to allow biological men to take records and achievements off women.
It was not difficult for Parkrun to defend biological women's achievements but they took the cowards approach, and now they've made it worse for all!
Given I can log into my Strava account right now and change Man to Women in my profile, it's probably already occurring on Strava...I would be equally appalled if Strava started to allow biological men to take records and achievements off women.
It was not difficult for Parkrun to defend biological women's achievements but they took the cowards approach, and now they've made it worse for all!
And the same with Gamin Connect, Fitbit, apple, and any other fitness tracking app. I've seen things online about people putting thier fitbits on thier dogs to see how much exercise it got in a day.
There are official races where these things matter and there should be some form of checks in place (although I don't think I've' ever been asked for ID when entering a 5k or 10k race), and then there's things like parkrun and Strava which are completely informal, and you provide your own information.
There are official races where these things matter and there should be some form of checks in place (although I don't think I've' ever been asked for ID when entering a 5k or 10k race), and then there's things like parkrun and Strava which are completely informal, and you provide your own information.
Harpoon said:
Given I can log into my Strava account right now and change Man to Women in my profile, it's probably already occurring on Strava...
I'm sure it is. I'm also equally sure any selfish idiots doing this are getting reported and having their 'achievements' removed immediately upon the report...I’m on the core team at my local parkrun and am setting up a new one, hoping to be live in a couple of months. I’ve run >300 times, volunteered >100 times, regularly the first finisher in my age category at my parkrun, run quasi-competitively with my running club, a member of England Athletics.
I do wonder how many of those who think parkrun should scrutinise all the fast runners to determine their sex have really thought about it from the perspective of the volunteers? If the culture warriors dragged me into their war, that would almost certainly put me off volunteering again. I don’t want to get involved with arguments about whether a fast woman is biologically a woman or not - outcome is either offending a cis woman or potentially outing a trans woman.
Saying having trans women running would put off girls from starting parkrun is nonsense. The juniors in my club might occasionally turn up at our parkrun, but the fast ones are out doing races at the weekend. I can’t think of any (boys or girls) that have started at parkrun and then joined our club. They are good runners at school and come through to club running that way. Much more off putting would be having to justify their biological sex before even coming along to parkrun.
I do wonder how many of those who think parkrun should scrutinise all the fast runners to determine their sex have really thought about it from the perspective of the volunteers? If the culture warriors dragged me into their war, that would almost certainly put me off volunteering again. I don’t want to get involved with arguments about whether a fast woman is biologically a woman or not - outcome is either offending a cis woman or potentially outing a trans woman.
Saying having trans women running would put off girls from starting parkrun is nonsense. The juniors in my club might occasionally turn up at our parkrun, but the fast ones are out doing races at the weekend. I can’t think of any (boys or girls) that have started at parkrun and then joined our club. They are good runners at school and come through to club running that way. Much more off putting would be having to justify their biological sex before even coming along to parkrun.
Ashfordian said:
Harpoon said:
Given I can log into my Strava account right now and change Man to Women in my profile, it's probably already occurring on Strava...
I'm sure it is. I'm also equally sure any selfish idiots doing this are getting reported and having their 'achievements' removed immediately upon the report...But I've had a ding-dong with some Muppet on Strava before because I "stole" his KOM on a Duathlon bike lap. My offence? I'd ridden it (with photo evidence on the activity) on a road bike in July or August. It apparently "wasn't fair" because he'd ridden it in October on a MTB. There are other examples of accusations of "cheating" where a MTB segment and a road segment were so close that the GPS allowance for inaccuracy meant both sets of riders appeared on the other group's segment results. And boy, were those MTBers butt hurt about it! Cue an "arms race" with creation (by idiots who fail to understand how Strava works) of many, many new segments with titles like "MTBs only" and "no cheating roadies".
I'm not comparing it to presenting as a biological female when you are actually a bearded male. But it goes to show how accusations of "cheating" aren't all that effective a way to self-police a forum or app.
How, exactly, would you identify someone riding under the wrong sex? Aside from actually sharing the road with them and being the only two people on a particular leaderboard for that day? Because most of us aren't out group riding. Many, many riders are out alone. So all you get as a female Strava KOM holder is the email that says "Ooops! It looks like Ena Sharples has taken your crown." You've got no idea if Ena Sharples is local, or just passing through. You've got no idea if she's an elite athlete under an assumed username, or a complete newbie. You can't tell if she's an amateur being motor-paced to deliberately put your nose out of joint, or actually an age-group world champion 800 metre runner doing a bit of cross-training - a genuine occurrence - Virginia caught and dropped me up Staple Lane in the Surrey Hills. I was slack-jawed in awe. I know she's been "flagged" many times, only to get her achievements reinstated with the "Trust me..." button.
Anecdotally speaking, none of the women who finished just ahead or behind me at last week's parkrun appeared to give a stuff about this subject. One thanked me for helping her get close to her "sub 30 minutes" goal and said "See you next week, then...?" Then we joked about bouncing off one-another to try to get us both over the line under 30 minutes. It was my goal too, although I've managed it once already this year, thanks to another quite capable age-group female athlete who was just using parkrun as a warm-up for a Sunday cross country race event. I'm not saying it is OK for men to "compete" as women. Far from it. But parkrun has bigger issues which, again anecdotally, bother female participants more. One of which is faster runners steaming through yelling at slower runners to get out of their way. Something that seems contrary to statements made on parkrun's own website and at event briefings. Nothing more off-putting in terms of continued participation than being made to feel that no matter how hard you are trying, you're only really getting in the way of "better" athletes. Most of those ladies (and some men, like me) getting shouted at are only a bad experience or two from ditching parkrun altogether. After all, the most some of us have had to invest is the time to download a barcode onto a mobile phone. If parkrun, as an organisation, are going to "clean house" there are other rooms to start in.
Personally? I hope it all dies down and gets forgotten about. I've never even looked at course records or the fastest parkrun times on a given Saturday. The extent of my "digging down" into stats starts and ends with the contents of the email I get after a parkrun that tells me how fast I ran this week, and how close to my PB that was. Beyond that, and my percentage age grading (I'd like to score 50% or better), I really couldn't give two hoots about how fast anyone else runs 5k in my local park. I realise that these records are important to some who may be very close to potentially breaking/holding them, but for the vast majority of parkrun participants I doubt they've ever even looked at such data.
Ashfordian said:
It was not difficult for Parkrun to defend biological women's achievements but they took the cowards approach, and now they've made it worse for all!
Would you rather Parkrun took an official stance on who's a woman and who isn't? This is a very difficult issue, which polarises opinions and detracts from people having a bit of fun on a Saturday morning. Given the impact Parkrun is having on people's lives, I think they made the right decision not to get involved in the debate. Zigster said:
I’m on the core team at my local parkrun and am setting up a new one, hoping to be live in a couple of months. I’ve run >300 times, volunteered >100 times, regularly the first finisher in my age category at my parkrun, run quasi-competitively with my running club, a member of England Athletics.
I do wonder how many of those who think parkrun should scrutinise all the fast runners to determine their sex have really thought about it from the perspective of the volunteers? If the culture warriors dragged me into their war, that would almost certainly put me off volunteering again. I don’t want to get involved with arguments about whether a fast woman is biologically a woman or not - outcome is either offending a cis woman or potentially outing a trans woman.
Saying having trans women running would put off girls from starting parkrun is nonsense. The juniors in my club might occasionally turn up at our parkrun, but the fast ones are out doing races at the weekend. I can’t think of any (boys or girls) that have started at parkrun and then joined our club. They are good runners at school and come through to club running that way. Much more off putting would be having to justify their biological sex before even coming along to parkrun.
Firstly, you could respect women by labelling them correctly as women, and not lowering their status to "cis women". I am not a cis man, and never will be. Remove this nonsense labelling where you are disrespecting the status of a women as you are part of the problem!I do wonder how many of those who think parkrun should scrutinise all the fast runners to determine their sex have really thought about it from the perspective of the volunteers? If the culture warriors dragged me into their war, that would almost certainly put me off volunteering again. I don’t want to get involved with arguments about whether a fast woman is biologically a woman or not - outcome is either offending a cis woman or potentially outing a trans woman.
Saying having trans women running would put off girls from starting parkrun is nonsense. The juniors in my club might occasionally turn up at our parkrun, but the fast ones are out doing races at the weekend. I can’t think of any (boys or girls) that have started at parkrun and then joined our club. They are good runners at school and come through to club running that way. Much more off putting would be having to justify their biological sex before even coming along to parkrun.
A women (no cis!) running course or age group records is going to be known in the running community. A man or a trans-women running in the female category is also going to known in the running community because of the times they will have to be running. It's very simply for the running community to oversee as it is a small an elite few at that level, and for Parkrun to enforce it. If one situation slips through the net, it's easy for an appeals process to resolve.
Alex@POD said:
Would you rather Parkrun took an official stance on who's a woman and who isn't? This is a very difficult issue, which polarises opinions and detracts from people having a bit of fun on a Saturday morning. Given the impact Parkrun is having on people's lives, I think they made the right decision not to get involved in the debate.
It's not a very difficult issue. Google "biological male" and "biological female" if you are struggling, but then you may need to Google "how to tie your shoelaces" as well!What Parkrun have done with their cowardly approach is to allow a selfish group probably less than 10 people to reduce the fun and motivation for thousands {when you take into account course age-group records). Additionally, there will no longer be publicity for Parkrun records or course records. This was always good publicity, especially where Parkrun was founded from.
Ashfordian said:
Firstly, you could respect women by labelling them correctly as women, and not lowering their status to "cis women". I am not a cis man, and never will be. Remove this nonsense labelling where you are disrespecting the status of a women as you are part of the problem!
I'd follow your own advice on Googling stuff before making statements like that... 
Ashfordian said:
Alex@POD said:
Would you rather Parkrun took an official stance on who's a woman and who isn't? This is a very difficult issue, which polarises opinions and detracts from people having a bit of fun on a Saturday morning. Given the impact Parkrun is having on people's lives, I think they made the right decision not to get involved in the debate.
It's not a very difficult issue. Google "biological male" and "biological female" if you are struggling, but then you may need to Google "how to tie your shoelaces" as well!What Parkrun have done with their cowardly approach is to allow a selfish group probably less than 10 people to reduce the fun and motivation for thousands {when you take into account course age-group records). Additionally, there will no longer be publicity for Parkrun records or course records. This was always good publicity, especially where Parkrun was founded from.
Randy Winkman said:
But how were they supposed to enforce gender rules? I dont think that a female category record should be held by someone born male but if they tick female and set the record how are Parkrun supposed to know that and do anything about it? That's an open question because I dont know how these things are done.
Female course records are generally run under 17 minutes and faster. There will not be many men running these times, so when Christina was Chris, if Chris was running sub 17 min 5k's he will be known locally.Again, if Christina is now 65, and breaks that age group course record, you don't just turn up off the street and do it, you will have a history of running those times and again times at that age group level is a small community.
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