The Running Thread Vol 2
Discussion
Oh crap... went out today to do a Fartlek session and picked up a calf strain during the warm up. Felt a sharp pain in the back of my calf and stopped immediately. Only about a mile from home so walked slowly back, with the calf being uncomfortable rather than painful. Hopefully not too bad, but will see how it is tomorrow. Still sore now.
Google suggests anything from few days to several weeks, depending on the severity...
11 weeks until Brighton though
Google suggests anything from few days to several weeks, depending on the severity...
11 weeks until Brighton though
RobM77 said:
z4RRSchris said:
RobM77 said:
Make sure you're warming up properly (search on You Tube for routines, which involve easy dynamic movements) and stretching afterwards (again, look on You Tube). Also make sure you're not pushing too hard all the time - from the slowest to the fastest runners, most of their miles will be easy, which for most people is a heart rate of under 150bpm. If you do a fast run, always precede it with some easy running first. The other thing is technique, although even with good technique, if you don't run much some muscle soreness is inevitable for the first few months until your legs adapt.
yeh im just doing a park run and going flat out 190bpm. ill try a proper warm up!
Running is all about managing the total load on your body. That load can come from distance or speed, but combining the two is generally kept to a minimum as a proportion of your overall miles. For example, I'm a regular runner running 70-75km a week spread over 6 days; but most of that is run at a conversational easy pace with a heart rate of about 140-145bpm. Like most runners, I do intervals once a week, with the fast bits totalling no more than 5% of my weekly mileage (e.g. 4 x 800m, or 6 x 400m etc), and I do a tempo run (the risky thing for injury), which for me is a comfortably hard pace for 2 or 3 bouts of 3km each, so around 10%-15% of my weekly mileage. Other than very brief 'strides' as I've just done, everything else (80-85% of the 70-75km) is just cruising along slowly. This sort of split applies to nobodies like me doing it for fun as much as it does the pros.
To be kinder to your body, try an easy 5km jog a couple of times a week, and perhaps only really go for it at Parkrun now and then?
rastapasta said:
RobM77 said:
z4RRSchris said:
RobM77 said:
Make sure you're warming up properly (search on You Tube for routines, which involve easy dynamic movements) and stretching afterwards (again, look on You Tube). Also make sure you're not pushing too hard all the time - from the slowest to the fastest runners, most of their miles will be easy, which for most people is a heart rate of under 150bpm. If you do a fast run, always precede it with some easy running first. The other thing is technique, although even with good technique, if you don't run much some muscle soreness is inevitable for the first few months until your legs adapt.
yeh im just doing a park run and going flat out 190bpm. ill try a proper warm up!
Running is all about managing the total load on your body. That load can come from distance or speed, but combining the two is generally kept to a minimum as a proportion of your overall miles. For example, I'm a regular runner running 70-75km a week spread over 6 days; but most of that is run at a conversational easy pace with a heart rate of about 140-145bpm. Like most runners, I do intervals once a week, with the fast bits totalling no more than 5% of my weekly mileage (e.g. 4 x 800m, or 6 x 400m etc), and I do a tempo run (the risky thing for injury), which for me is a comfortably hard pace for 2 or 3 bouts of 3km each, so around 10%-15% of my weekly mileage. Other than very brief 'strides' as I've just done, everything else (80-85% of the 70-75km) is just cruising along slowly. This sort of split applies to nobodies like me doing it for fun as much as it does the pros.
To be kinder to your body, try an easy 5km jog a couple of times a week, and perhaps only really go for it at Parkrun now and then?
My running started small, with 3 5km jogs each week, and then moving to the well known Furman plan of three key runs a week (intervals, tempo and long), always with rest days after running days. I then gradually extended and intensified those 3 key runs and added easy runs in between. I’ve also added in gym sessions, first just once a week, but now twice a week, and with gradually increasing weights – makes me faster and keeps injury at bay. All increases in distance, speed and overall loading have been very small (following the 10% rule), with a period to bed in before increasing again. If I get a niggle then I back off for a bit until it goes – high load routines like tempo are the first to go on hold in that situation. If I get injured, then I see someone straight away – physio and maybe gait analysis. Since I've been at this higher volume I'm getting fewer niggles and injuries than when I ran less. I’m guessing any perturbations that cause injury are now a smaller overall percent of the load on my body?
In addition to the above I’ve done a lot of reading and watched a lot of You Tube to learn as much as possible about training methods etc.
I do races every 5-6 weeks to punctuate things. At first it was Parkrun and an annual work relay marathon (4.2km each), and now it's 10k races. I also have my first half marathon booked for April. The half marathon is a big thing for me, because it was training for that same event when I was 30 that I first got injured big time, and every subsequent time I tried running. I never completed the race, but now I've had my gait fixed (the cause of the problem), and I'm back training smarter and hoping to get to the start line (and the finish line!) in the same time I was aiming for back then.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 5th February 13:47
RobM77 said:
Textbook running progression
Fair play - it's one thing reading it, knowing it's the right way to do it and attempting it. It's quite another thing being consistent enough to actually do it. Hat off to you.TLDR: I should just trust the process. And, anyone racing the Dursley Dozen?
Just done our work C25K group, then my own recover 12km for a total of 15. There's nothing like Strava to piss on your chips though. One thing I quite like about segments is you can see your own history, so I'm always pleased when I post a time and all the times around it are at higher heart rates. But this time, I came back from the run feeling pretty chipper - a recovery run averaging under nine minute miles and the average HR right where I want it, plus the RPE matching nicely. Only to see I'd run the same segment several times at a higher pace and lower heart rate. Bugger.
Still, that aside, I'm feeling in a really good place. A couple of those higher pace for lower HR segments were in the final month of marathon training, whereas I'm four weeks earlier than than in the schedule, so there's plenty of room for improvement. My shins are still a pain in the arse and I keep doing dumb things that aggravate them, like forgetting my trainers for the gym, then doing double leg hops over hurdles. Provided I can remember not to do that and keep subbing in the Wattbike for the tempo and interval sessions as I need to, I'll be good.
My next block includes some medium runs with several long (i.e. 1-3 miles) intervals at 10 seconds under marathon pace, which should go some way to improving running economy and make marathon pace less terrifying a prospect. I'm in a weird "trust the process" experiment and quandary, where I don't have a specific marathon pace/time in mind (I have a wide range - 3.15-3.45) and I just accept that by training as well as I can will get me somewhere within there. A bad run in, with illness, some injury and kid issues will put me closer to 3.45. A perfect run would get me to 3.15. What this does mean is a lot of plans that call for MP workouts don't fit, because I don't know what my marathon pace is. What I do know is at the weekend I did 8km at 4.35/km (~7.20/mile) and it did not feel like something I'd be doing for another 34.2km... Still, dream big and then be realistic on race day, choosing my pace based on the most recent workouts, not a finger stuck in the air and an arbitrary goal chosen five month before race day, in total ignorance of the subsequent training.
New shoes!
Salomon Speedcross 5.
I've done around 500km in my Speedcross 4 and they're still comfy. I've always had an occasional rub on a couple of toes depending which socks I wear which, from my ski-boot-fitting days would suggest they're slightly narrow.
The Speedcross 5 are a touch wider and trying them on this morning with thicker than normal socks the difference is noticeable.
Looking forward to giving them a hurl this weekend.
Salomon Speedcross 5.
I've done around 500km in my Speedcross 4 and they're still comfy. I've always had an occasional rub on a couple of toes depending which socks I wear which, from my ski-boot-fitting days would suggest they're slightly narrow.
The Speedcross 5 are a touch wider and trying them on this morning with thicker than normal socks the difference is noticeable.
Looking forward to giving them a hurl this weekend.
Smitters said:
RobM77 said:
Textbook running progression
Fair play - it's one thing reading it, knowing it's the right way to do it and attempting it. It's quite another thing being consistent enough to actually do it. Hat off to you.My mileage now is purely limited by pace, as I'm filling every hour's lunch break Mon-Fri, and Sundays shouldn't exceed 25-30% of weekly mileage. I suspect I'll get up to about 80km as my easy run pace drops, but to go further I'll have to start running twice a day.
It's freezing up here and all my warm gear was in the wash (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it)
16km tempoish on the treadmill last night at a steady 4.45/km pace - I did manage to get a blister on the underside of both my big toes though (on the hinged bit) - that's a new one - hoping it isn't a feature Saucony didn't tell me about when I abandoned my trusty Brooks this year.
Winter training feels like it is paying off. Getting back to 19/39/90/3.15 are the targets for the year, running 2000km and cycling 5000km would be nice to hit as well, but maybe mutually exclusive as I tend to get obsessed with one or the other.
Has anyone had a VO2 max test and compared it to a Garmin? Curious as to how accurate it is.
16km tempoish on the treadmill last night at a steady 4.45/km pace - I did manage to get a blister on the underside of both my big toes though (on the hinged bit) - that's a new one - hoping it isn't a feature Saucony didn't tell me about when I abandoned my trusty Brooks this year.
Winter training feels like it is paying off. Getting back to 19/39/90/3.15 are the targets for the year, running 2000km and cycling 5000km would be nice to hit as well, but maybe mutually exclusive as I tend to get obsessed with one or the other.
Has anyone had a VO2 max test and compared it to a Garmin? Curious as to how accurate it is.
Parsnip said:
Has anyone had a VO2 max test and compared it to a Garmin? Curious as to how accurate it is.
Yes. I had a proper test last summer and it was 55.8. At the time my Garmin 735 said 56, so yes, bang on. My watch is saying 58 now, which seems about right because I've nearly doubled my mileage and my paces have dropped by what you'd expect for that increase.RobM77 said:
Yes. I had a proper test last summer and it was 55.8. At the time my Garmin 735 said 56, so yes, bang on. My watch is saying 58 now, which seems about right because I've nearly doubled my mileage and my paces have dropped by what you'd expect for that increase.
Damn. I have went from 44-54 in the last few months but don't think ive seen 56/58 much. >60 is around 18min 5km i believe.johnwilliams77 said:
RobM77 said:
Yes. I had a proper test last summer and it was 55.8. At the time my Garmin 735 said 56, so yes, bang on. My watch is saying 58 now, which seems about right because I've nearly doubled my mileage and my paces have dropped by what you'd expect for that increase.
Damn. I have went from 44-54 in the last few months but don't think ive seen 56/58 much. >60 is around 18min 5km i believe.
Sounds about right. At a score of 56 last summer I was 41-42min for 10k and 20-21min for 5k. At 58 now, I'm bang on 40min for 10k (probably 39-40min if I got the right day) and I've not tried 5k since last summer, but I suspect somewhere in the 19s now.
I don't have much variation from the watch - I was 55/56 all last year and 57/58 so far this year. Does yours go up and down a fair bit?
RobM77 said:
Sounds about right. At a score of 56 last summer I was 41-42min for 10k and 20-21min for 5k. At 58 now, I'm bang on 40min for 10k (probably 39-40min if I got the right day) and I've not tried 5k since last summer, but I suspect somewhere in the 19s now.
I don't have much variation from the watch - I was 55/56 all last year and 57/58 so far this year. Does yours go up and down a fair bit?
irish boy said:
RobM77 said:
Sounds about right. At a score of 56 last summer I was 41-42min for 10k and 20-21min for 5k. At 58 now, I'm bang on 40min for 10k (probably 39-40min if I got the right day) and I've not tried 5k since last summer, but I suspect somewhere in the 19s now.
I don't have much variation from the watch - I was 55/56 all last year and 57/58 so far this year. Does yours go up and down a fair bit?
article said:
In the general population, VO2max tends to decline by about 10% per decade after the age of 30. Athletes who continue to compete and train hard can reduce the drop by about half, to 5% per decade after the age of 30.
The reason VO2max declines with age is that our maximal heart rates go down as well.
http://theconversation.com/how-does-aging-affect-athletic-performance-36051The reason VO2max declines with age is that our maximal heart rates go down as well.
I'm 42 years old and currently run 70-75km (43-46 miles) per week, although that's been increasing gradually, so a month or so ago I was on 60-65km a week, and two months before that it was 40km per week.
RobM77 said:
http://theconversation.com/how-does-aging-affect-a...
I'm 42 years old and currently run 70-75km (43-46 miles) per week, although that's been increasing gradually, so a month or so ago I was on 60-65km a week, and two months before that it was 40km per week.
Same age too lol. Some people in the club are getting there’s tested at the local university, might jump on board.I'm 42 years old and currently run 70-75km (43-46 miles) per week, although that's been increasing gradually, so a month or so ago I was on 60-65km a week, and two months before that it was 40km per week.
irish boy said:
RobM77 said:
http://theconversation.com/how-does-aging-affect-a...
I'm 42 years old and currently run 70-75km (43-46 miles) per week, although that's been increasing gradually, so a month or so ago I was on 60-65km a week, and two months before that it was 40km per week.
Same age too lol. Some people in the club are getting there’s tested at the local university, might jump on board.I'm 42 years old and currently run 70-75km (43-46 miles) per week, although that's been increasing gradually, so a month or so ago I was on 60-65km a week, and two months before that it was 40km per week.
RobM77 said:
It'd be interesting to see your VO2 Max. If you're doing the same race times on a fraction of the miles, it could be that you have a naturally high VO2 Max or other genetic adaptations, or perhaps better running economy. It also might be because you've run for longer - I'm still pretty new to running. There are lots of variables.
I’m also new to it, started park runs in October 18 with a 26 minute time, then joined a running club in may 19. Turned 40 and realised a did zero exercise so thought I better get off my arse and do something. irish boy said:
RobM77 said:
It'd be interesting to see your VO2 Max. If you're doing the same race times on a fraction of the miles, it could be that you have a naturally high VO2 Max or other genetic adaptations, or perhaps better running economy. It also might be because you've run for longer - I'm still pretty new to running. There are lots of variables.
I’m also new to it, started park runs in October 18 with a 26 minute time, then joined a running club in may 19. Turned 40 and realised a did zero exercise so thought I better get off my arse and do something. I've never been much of a runner bar a marathon back in 2010 (with my wife, for charity) but recently started doing it again with a view to lose some timber and i'm getting frustrated with calf strains. Runs ranging from 'fast' 5k (24mins) runs to more gentle 14k runs (1hr20), typically 2 or 3 per week at most, always including 1x min 10km and 1 shorter run.
I am stretching before and afterwards but regardless i'm getting strains, the last - a few weeks ago - 6.5km into a longer run and i had to call wifey to collect me.
What am i doing wrong?
I am stretching before and afterwards but regardless i'm getting strains, the last - a few weeks ago - 6.5km into a longer run and i had to call wifey to collect me.
What am i doing wrong?
RobM77 said:
You've made excellent progress if you can do a 40 minute 10k now, especially on that weekly mileage. My first Parkrun was four months earlier than yours and 4 minutes faster, but I've only just cracked 40 minutes for the 10k last month.
I probably pushed myself too hard but it was a big race and all the club that weren’t running were lining the road. Pushes you on a bit, came in at 39.55 and near collapsed. Previous pb was 43.56 6 weeks earlier.crashley said:
I've never been much of a runner bar a marathon back in 2010 (with my wife, for charity) but recently started doing it again with a view to lose some timber and i'm getting frustrated with calf strains. Runs ranging from 'fast' 5k (24mins) runs to more gentle 14k runs (1hr20), typically 2 or 3 per week at most, always including 1x min 10km and 1 shorter run.
I am stretching before and afterwards but regardless i'm getting strains, the last - a few weeks ago - 6.5km into a longer run and i had to call wifey to collect me.
What am i doing wrong?
This is pretty common - I had it when I transitioned to running mid/fore foot. Someone more experienced like Smitters may be able to offer better advice, but some things to note:I am stretching before and afterwards but regardless i'm getting strains, the last - a few weeks ago - 6.5km into a longer run and i had to call wifey to collect me.
What am i doing wrong?
- Too many fast sustained efforts? Only the very injury-resistant, or under 30s, will be able to sustain a 24 minute race effort like your 5km Parkruns every week, or even every fortnight. Even if it's slightly off race effort and more like a tempo pace for you, 24 minutes in one go is a typical tempo run for someone doing a higher regular mileage than you're doing - most beginner to intermediate runners run tempo pace for 15-20 minutes followed by 500-1000m recovery jog before going again, if experienced and with higher mileage. If not causing the issue, this will cause increased cumulative load.
- A better warm-up. Look on You Tube for warm up routines - for the calves I always do this before each run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zs4hh4cp98 Note the dynamic movements - static stretching comes after a run. James Dunne is a really decent guy - he has a video on calf pain you can check out too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJtlwdHtwPo&t=... I always start each run with a brisk walk, a little jog, and then a series of dynamic movements like this. I also always precede speed sessions like intervals, tempo or a race, with a 10 minute easy jog.
- Gait. I've had remarkable results having my gait changed by a specialist. I went to https://www.therunninglab.co.uk/ for several sessions, but trustworthy and very fast (2min25 marathon) You Tuber Ben Parkes recommends https://www.runningreborn.co.uk/
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 6th February 16:43
irish boy said:
RobM77 said:
You've made excellent progress if you can do a 40 minute 10k now, especially on that weekly mileage. My first Parkrun was four months earlier than yours and 4 minutes faster, but I've only just cracked 40 minutes for the 10k last month.
I probably pushed myself too hard but it was a big race and all the club that weren’t running were lining the road. Pushes you on a bit, came in at 39.55 and near collapsed. Previous pb was 43.56 6 weeks earlier.My next challenge is a half marathon - I've got one at the beginning of April.
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