The Running Thread Vol 2

[RobM77]

Smitters said:

RobM77 said:

Textbook running progression

Fair play - it's one thing reading it, knowing it's the right way to do it and attempting it. It's quite another thing being consistent enough to actually do it. Hat off to you.

Thanks. Planning helps - I have a spreadsheet at work where I log every run and plan the next few weeks so I can mess around with the numbers to get the increases in a sustainable way. The spreadsheet helps to plan my taper for events too.

My mileage now is purely limited by pace, as I'm filling every hour's lunch break Mon-Fri, and Sundays shouldn't exceed 25-30% of weekly mileage. I suspect I'll get up to about 80km as my easy run pace drops, but to go further I'll have to start running twice a day.

[Parsnip]

It's freezing up here and all my warm gear was in the wash (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it)

16km tempoish on the treadmill last night at a steady 4.45/km pace - I did manage to get a blister on the underside of both my big toes though (on the hinged bit) - that's a new one - hoping it isn't a feature Saucony didn't tell me about when I abandoned my trusty Brooks this year.

Winter training feels like it is paying off. Getting back to 19/39/90/3.15 are the targets for the year, running 2000km and cycling 5000km would be nice to hit as well, but maybe mutually exclusive as I tend to get obsessed with one or the other.

Has anyone had a VO2 max test and compared it to a Garmin? Curious as to how accurate it is.

[RobM77]

Parsnip said:

Has anyone had a VO2 max test and compared it to a Garmin? Curious as to how accurate it is.

Yes. I had a proper test last summer and it was 55.8. At the time my Garmin 735 said 56, so yes, bang on. My watch is saying 58 now, which seems about right because I've nearly doubled my mileage and my paces have dropped by what you'd expect for that increase.

[johnwilliams77]

RobM77 said:

Yes. I had a proper test last summer and it was 55.8. At the time my Garmin 735 said 56, so yes, bang on. My watch is saying 58 now, which seems about right because I've nearly doubled my mileage and my paces have dropped by what you'd expect for that increase.

Damn. I have went from 44-54 in the last few months but don't think ive seen 56/58 much. >60 is around 18min 5km i believe.

[RobM77]

johnwilliams77 said:

RobM77 said:

Yes. I had a proper test last summer and it was 55.8. At the time my Garmin 735 said 56, so yes, bang on. My watch is saying 58 now, which seems about right because I've nearly doubled my mileage and my paces have dropped by what you'd expect for that increase.

Damn. I have went from 44-54 in the last few months but don't think ive seen 56/58 much. >60 is around 18min 5km i believe.

Sounds about right. At a score of 56 last summer I was 41-42min for 10k and 20-21min for 5k.
At 58 now, I'm bang on 40min for 10k (probably 39-40min if I got the right day) and I've not tried 5k since last summer, but I suspect somewhere in the 19s now.

I don't have much variation from the watch - I was 55/56 all last year and 57/58 so far this year. Does yours go up and down a fair bit?

[irish boy]

RobM77 said:

Sounds about right. At a score of 56 last summer I was 41-42min for 10k and 20-21min for 5k.
At 58 now, I'm bang on 40min for 10k (probably 39-40min if I got the right day) and I've not tried 5k since last summer, but I suspect somewhere in the 19s now.

I don't have much variation from the watch - I was 55/56 all last year and 57/58 so far this year. Does yours go up and down a fair bit?

Your times are identical to mine. Would love to know my vo2 max. Does age make a difference? I only run 15-18 miles a week if that makes a difference too.

[RobM77]

irish boy said:

RobM77 said:

Sounds about right. At a score of 56 last summer I was 41-42min for 10k and 20-21min for 5k.
At 58 now, I'm bang on 40min for 10k (probably 39-40min if I got the right day) and I've not tried 5k since last summer, but I suspect somewhere in the 19s now.

I don't have much variation from the watch - I was 55/56 all last year and 57/58 so far this year. Does yours go up and down a fair bit?

Your times are identical to mine. Would love to know my vo2 max. Does age make a difference? I only run 15-18 miles a week if that makes a difference too.

Yes, VO2 Max declines with age:

article said:

In the general population, VO2max tends to decline by about 10% per decade after the age of 30. Athletes who continue to compete and train hard can reduce the drop by about half, to 5% per decade after the age of 30.
The reason VO2max declines with age is that our maximal heart rates go down as well.

http://theconversation.com/how-does-aging-affect-athletic-performance-36051

I'm 42 years old and currently run 70-75km (43-46 miles) per week, although that's been increasing gradually, so a month or so ago I was on 60-65km a week, and two months before that it was 40km per week.

[irish boy]

RobM77 said:

http://theconversation.com/how-does-aging-affect-a...

I'm 42 years old and currently run 70-75km (43-46 miles) per week, although that's been increasing gradually, so a month or so ago I was on 60-65km a week, and two months before that it was 40km per week.

Same age too lol. Some people in the club are getting there’s tested at the local university, might jump on board.

[RobM77]

irish boy said:

RobM77 said:

http://theconversation.com/how-does-aging-affect-a...

I'm 42 years old and currently run 70-75km (43-46 miles) per week, although that's been increasing gradually, so a month or so ago I was on 60-65km a week, and two months before that it was 40km per week.

Same age too lol. Some people in the club are getting there’s tested at the local university, might jump on board.

It'd be interesting to see your VO2 Max. If you're doing the same race times on a fraction of the miles, it could be that you have a naturally high VO2 Max or other genetic adaptations, or perhaps better running economy. It also might be because you've run for longer - I'm still pretty new to running. There are lots of variables.

[irish boy]

RobM77 said:

It'd be interesting to see your VO2 Max. If you're doing the same race times on a fraction of the miles, it could be that you have a naturally high VO2 Max or other genetic adaptations, or perhaps better running economy. It also might be because you've run for longer - I'm still pretty new to running. There are lots of variables.

I’m also new to it, started park runs in October 18 with a 26 minute time, then joined a running club in may 19. Turned 40 and realised a did zero exercise so thought I better get off my arse and do something.

[RobM77]

irish boy said:

RobM77 said:

It'd be interesting to see your VO2 Max. If you're doing the same race times on a fraction of the miles, it could be that you have a naturally high VO2 Max or other genetic adaptations, or perhaps better running economy. It also might be because you've run for longer - I'm still pretty new to running. There are lots of variables.

I’m also new to it, started park runs in October 18 with a 26 minute time, then joined a running club in may 19. Turned 40 and realised a did zero exercise so thought I better get off my arse and do something.

You've made excellent progress if you can do a 40 minute 10k now, especially on that weekly mileage. My first Parkrun was four months earlier than yours and 4 minutes faster, but I've only just cracked 40 minutes for the 10k last month.

[crashley]

I've never been much of a runner bar a marathon back in 2010 (with my wife, for charity) but recently started doing it again with a view to lose some timber and i'm getting frustrated with calf strains. Runs ranging from 'fast' 5k (24mins) runs to more gentle 14k runs (1hr20), typically 2 or 3 per week at most, always including 1x min 10km and 1 shorter run.

I am stretching before and afterwards but regardless i'm getting strains, the last - a few weeks ago - 6.5km into a longer run and i had to call wifey to collect me.

What am i doing wrong?

[irish boy]

RobM77 said:

You've made excellent progress if you can do a 40 minute 10k now, especially on that weekly mileage. My first Parkrun was four months earlier than yours and 4 minutes faster, but I've only just cracked 40 minutes for the 10k last month.

I probably pushed myself too hard but it was a big race and all the club that weren’t running were lining the road. Pushes you on a bit, came in at 39.55 and near collapsed. Previous pb was 43.56 6 weeks earlier.

[RobM77]

crashley said:

I've never been much of a runner bar a marathon back in 2010 (with my wife, for charity) but recently started doing it again with a view to lose some timber and i'm getting frustrated with calf strains. Runs ranging from 'fast' 5k (24mins) runs to more gentle 14k runs (1hr20), typically 2 or 3 per week at most, always including 1x min 10km and 1 shorter run.

I am stretching before and afterwards but regardless i'm getting strains, the last - a few weeks ago - 6.5km into a longer run and i had to call wifey to collect me.

What am i doing wrong?

This is pretty common - I had it when I transitioned to running mid/fore foot. Someone more experienced like Smitters may be able to offer better advice, but some things to note:

• Too many fast sustained efforts? Only the very injury-resistant, or under 30s, will be able to sustain a 24 minute race effort like your 5km Parkruns every week, or even every fortnight. Even if it's slightly off race effort and more like a tempo pace for you, 24 minutes in one go is a typical tempo run for someone doing a higher regular mileage than you're doing - most beginner to intermediate runners run tempo pace for 15-20 minutes followed by 500-1000m recovery jog before going again, if experienced and with higher mileage. If not causing the issue, this will cause increased cumulative load.

• A better warm-up. Look on You Tube for warm up routines - for the calves I always do this before each run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zs4hh4cp98 Note the dynamic movements - static stretching comes after a run. James Dunne is a really decent guy - he has a video on calf pain you can check out too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJtlwdHtwPo&t=... I always start each run with a brisk walk, a little jog, and then a series of dynamic movements like this. I also always precede speed sessions like intervals, tempo or a race, with a 10 minute easy jog.

• Gait. I've had remarkable results having my gait changed by a specialist. I went to https://www.therunninglab.co.uk/ for several sessions, but trustworthy and very fast (2min25 marathon) You Tuber Ben Parkes recommends https://www.runningreborn.co.uk/

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 6th February 16:43

[RobM77]

irish boy said:

RobM77 said:

You've made excellent progress if you can do a 40 minute 10k now, especially on that weekly mileage. My first Parkrun was four months earlier than yours and 4 minutes faster, but I've only just cracked 40 minutes for the 10k last month.

I probably pushed myself too hard but it was a big race and all the club that weren’t running were lining the road. Pushes you on a bit, came in at 39.55 and near collapsed. Previous pb was 43.56 6 weeks earlier.

That's pretty good going! An enormous improvement over the 43:56 too!

My next challenge is a half marathon - I've got one at the beginning of April.

[smn159]

RobM77 said:

trustworthy and very fast (2min25 marathon) You Tuber Ben Parkes

That is very fast!!

[crashley]

RobM77 said:

crashley said:

I've never been much of a runner bar a marathon back in 2010 (with my wife, for charity) but recently started doing it again with a view to lose some timber and i'm getting frustrated with calf strains. Runs ranging from 'fast' 5k (24mins) runs to more gentle 14k runs (1hr20), typically 2 or 3 per week at most, always including 1x min 10km and 1 shorter run.

I am stretching before and afterwards but regardless i'm getting strains, the last - a few weeks ago - 6.5km into a longer run and i had to call wifey to collect me.

What am i doing wrong?

This is pretty common - I had it when I transitioned to running mid/fore foot. Someone more experienced like Smitters may be able to offer better advice, but some things to note:

• Too many fast sustained efforts? Only the very injury-resistant, or under 30s, will be able to sustain a 24 minute race effort like your 5km Parkruns every week, or even every fortnight. Even if it's slightly off race effort and more like a tempo pace for you, 24 minutes in one go is a typical tempo run for someone doing a higher regular mileage than you're doing - most beginner to intermediate runners run tempo pace for 15-20 minutes followed by 500-1000m recovery jog before going again, if experienced and with higher mileage. If not causing the issue, this will cause increased cumulative load.

• A better warm-up. Look on You Tube for warm up routines - for the calves I always do this before each run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zs4hh4cp98 Note the dynamic movements - static stretching comes after a run. James Dunne is a really decent guy - he has a video on calf pain you can check out too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJtlwdHtwPo&t=... I always start each run with a brisk walk, a little jog, and then a series of dynamic movements like this. I also always precede speed sessions like intervals, tempo or a race, with a 10 minute easy jog.

• Gait. I've had remarkable results having my gait changed by a specialist. I went to https://www.therunninglab.co.uk/ for several sessions, but trustworthy and very fast (2min25 marathon) You Tuber Ben Parkes recommends https://www.runningreborn.co.uk/

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 6th February 16:43

Really helpful, ty. I have already adjusted my technique to land heel first, as I had been running on my toes (from years of footy I'm guessing) but I was told I was too old (36) to run distance like that!

[RobM77]

crashley said:

RobM77 said:

crashley said:

I've never been much of a runner bar a marathon back in 2010 (with my wife, for charity) but recently started doing it again with a view to lose some timber and i'm getting frustrated with calf strains. Runs ranging from 'fast' 5k (24mins) runs to more gentle 14k runs (1hr20), typically 2 or 3 per week at most, always including 1x min 10km and 1 shorter run.

I am stretching before and afterwards but regardless i'm getting strains, the last - a few weeks ago - 6.5km into a longer run and i had to call wifey to collect me.

What am i doing wrong?

This is pretty common - I had it when I transitioned to running mid/fore foot. Someone more experienced like Smitters may be able to offer better advice, but some things to note:

• Too many fast sustained efforts? Only the very injury-resistant, or under 30s, will be able to sustain a 24 minute race effort like your 5km Parkruns every week, or even every fortnight. Even if it's slightly off race effort and more like a tempo pace for you, 24 minutes in one go is a typical tempo run for someone doing a higher regular mileage than you're doing - most beginner to intermediate runners run tempo pace for 15-20 minutes followed by 500-1000m recovery jog before going again, if experienced and with higher mileage. If not causing the issue, this will cause increased cumulative load.

• A better warm-up. Look on You Tube for warm up routines - for the calves I always do this before each run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zs4hh4cp98 Note the dynamic movements - static stretching comes after a run. James Dunne is a really decent guy - he has a video on calf pain you can check out too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJtlwdHtwPo&t=... I always start each run with a brisk walk, a little jog, and then a series of dynamic movements like this. I also always precede speed sessions like intervals, tempo or a race, with a 10 minute easy jog.

• Gait. I've had remarkable results having my gait changed by a specialist. I went to https://www.therunninglab.co.uk/ for several sessions, but trustworthy and very fast (2min25 marathon) You Tuber Ben Parkes recommends https://www.runningreborn.co.uk/

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 6th February 16:43

Really helpful, ty. I have already adjusted my technique to land heel first, as I had been running on my toes (from years of footy I'm guessing) but I was told I was too old (36) to run distance like that!

No problem. I'm really not sure about that advice you were given. If you already run like that, why change? Particularly to a footstrike so strongly associated with injuries (not in everyone, but in many). The only advice against forefoot striking I've heard is people who try and switch from heel striking overnight, as for example you're forced to do by the recent barefoot running craze - that causes issues. If you already forefoot strike, why not just build up the mileage slowly?

Heel striking caused me to stop due to pain and swelling after 1-3 months of attempted running all through my adult life, so much so I never even started a race. At one point I couldn't even walk up stairs. eventually I went to the Running Lab (link above) and transitioned to forefoot strike aged 40 without an issue. The key was to do it a bit at a time. I did have a few hobble home moments (as mentioned above), but the transition took a few months and I've not looked back since. I've now been running 2+ years with no knee pain at all.

It's expensive, but I'd highly recommend seeing one of the gait experts I've linked to above.

[smn159]

crashley said:

Really helpful, ty. I have already adjusted my technique to land heel first, as I had been running on my toes (from years of footy I'm guessing) but I was told I was too old (36) to run distance like that!

I don't think that's the answer, particularly if you're landing with a straight leg - that's a lot of load straight up through your knees, plus it will slow you down as heel striking leads to a braking force with each step.

Sounds like proper gait analysis would be of benefit, but AIUI you should be looking ultimately for a mid-foot landing with a slightly bent knee, with your shin perpendicular to the ground

[johnwilliams77]

Just managed a 6:20 mile as a part of a longer 6 miler run. I am happy with that and would be even happier if I could string 3 of them together in a parkrun in a few weeks. I feel fit when I can do sub 20 despite plenty of runners my age being able to do sub 19, 18 and 17...