Bravest athlete ever? I think not.

[BobsPigeon]

RichB said:

aka_kerrly said:

In terms of the MMA fighter, I can't stand that kind of attitude and bragging about beating a load of women including smashing skulls is just vulgar.

It's disgusting. Can you imagine a professional boxer bragging about fracturing someone's skull! It would be unthinkable.

Fallon Fox hasn't fought for 6 years and whilst she was "professional" she was at a level that even back then was some way off the top of the game which back then was basically Rhonda Rousey, Meisha Tate and the rest. I expect today's top women i. E Amanda Nunez would destroy her, but you'd have to go a long way down todays male rankings into the amateurs even I suspect to find a man Amanda Nunez would beat (she'd knock the st out of me though I accept). MMA is evolving as a sport very quickly.

What I'm basically saying is she was never "professional"

[Kawasicki]

RichB said:

aka_kerrly said:

In terms of the MMA fighter, I can't stand that kind of attitude and bragging about beating a load of women including smashing skulls is just vulgar.

It's disgusting. Can you imagine a professional boxer bragging about fracturing someone's skull! It would be unthinkable.

Here are some unthinkable quotes from professional boxers;

“I try to catch [other boxers] on the tip of the nose, because i try to push the bone into the brain.”
“I’m the most brutal and ruthless conquerer there has ever been.”
“I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It’s ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm.”
“When you see me smash somebody’s skull, you enjoy it”
“I’m not much for talking. You know what I do. I put guys in body bags when I’m right”
“The act of treachery is an art, but the traitor himself is a piece of st.”
“My main objective is to be professional but to kill him.”

“Anybody can go and on this particular time we have bad blood against each other. This is the only sport where you can kill a man and get paid for it at the same time. It’s legal. So why not use my right to do so?”

“He’s like a fly in my ear, I can’t wait. I’m going to get him outta there, it’s going to be in dramatic fashion, in a fashion no one has ever seen.
His life is on the line for this fight and I do mean his life. I’m still trying to get me a body on my record.”

[Stella Tortoise]

Pete102 said:

On the subject of the transgender athlete...let me introduce you to Gabi Garcia who's not transgender but regularly competes against other women and at the end of the month is going up against a guy.

It’s not me is it?

[E63eeeeee...]

DocJock said:

E63eeeeee... said:

DocJock said:

It's simple. Y chromosome? You're competing in the men's event.

A Y chromosome gives you a much bigger performance advantage than any PED.

bks. If that was true there'd be no overlap between athletic performance/ strength/ whatever between men and women. Relative to most species, human males and females are remarkably similar in size, strength etc.

Even international athletics federations are more sophisticated than that - iirc they look at the mechanism, which is primarily testosterone.

I'm wondering if you're a real doc.

You call bks, then in the very next sentence make a ridiculous statement. Yes, a fit, trained woman can outperform an unfit, untrained man.Compare like for like and that does not happen.
Name me an athletic event where women outperform men please.

Running - Women's world records are on average more than 10% slower.
Field Events - difference is even greater.
Lifting - ditto
Cycling - ditto

Athletics federation were forced to change to cater for the tiny number of intersex athletes such a Semenya, and a growing concern about 'testosterone doping'. That does not mean that the greater normal levels of testosterone in a biological male (Y chromosome) gives them a measurable performance advantage. If it were not the case, why are intersex athletes forced to take medication to reduce their levels to those 'normal' for women?

I'm not sure if there's an excess "not" in your last paragraph or not.

Anyway, it's clearly not simple, otherwise we wouldn't even be talking about it. There's a reasonable explanation of why it's not simple here:
https://theconversation.com/ten-ethical-flaws-in-t...

Elite female athletes will outperform high nineties percent of people with Y chromosomes, including many you'd consider to be fit and trained, it's hardly comparable to performance enhancing drugs. But of course you're right that there are almost no sports where elite men don't have the advantage.

As someone said earlier, giving parity to women's sports already creates complexity, the entire gender/ trans conversation is complicated, intersex is complicated. Whatever approach you take here disadvantages some people. Few complex questions are successfully answered by pretending that they are simple.

[gazza285]

DocJock said:

Name me an athletic event where women outperform men please.

...Cycling...

A few years ago perhaps, but Beryl Burton was often quicker than the men.

[RichB]

Kawasicki said:

RichB said:

aka_kerrly said:

In terms of the MMA fighter, I can't stand that kind of attitude and bragging about beating a load of women including smashing skulls is just vulgar.

It's disgusting. Can you imagine a professional boxer bragging about fracturing someone's skull! It would be unthinkable.

Here are some unthinkable quotes from professional boxers;

“I try to catch [other boxers] on the tip of the nose, because i try to push the bone into the brain.”
“I’m the most brutal and ruthless conquerer there has ever been.”
“I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It’s ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm.”
“When you see me smash somebody’s skull, you enjoy it”
“I’m not much for talking. You know what I do. I put guys in body bags when I’m right”
“The act of treachery is an art, but the traitor himself is a piece of st.”
“My main objective is to be professional but to kill him.”
“Anybody can go and on this particular time we have bad blood against each other. This is the only sport where you can kill a man and get paid for it at the same time. It’s legal. So why not use my right to do so?”
“He’s like a fly in my ear, I can’t wait. I’m going to get him outta there, it’s going to be in dramatic fashion, in a fashion no one has ever seen.
His life is on the line for this fight and I do mean his life. I’m still trying to get me a body on my record.”

That surprises me but fair enough...

[irocfan]

RichB said:

Kawasicki said:

RichB said:

aka_kerrly said:

In terms of the MMA fighter, I can't stand that kind of attitude and bragging about beating a load of women including smashing skulls is just vulgar.

It's disgusting. Can you imagine a professional boxer bragging about fracturing someone's skull! It would be unthinkable.

Here are some unthinkable quotes from professional boxers;

“I try to catch [other boxers] on the tip of the nose, because i try to push the bone into the brain.”
“I’m the most brutal and ruthless conquerer there has ever been.”
“I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It’s ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm.”
“When you see me smash somebody’s skull, you enjoy it”
“I’m not much for talking. You know what I do. I put guys in body bags when I’m right”
“The act of treachery is an art, but the traitor himself is a piece of st.”
“My main objective is to be professional but to kill him.”
“Anybody can go and on this particular time we have bad blood against each other. This is the only sport where you can kill a man and get paid for it at the same time. It’s legal. So why not use my right to do so?”
“He’s like a fly in my ear, I can’t wait. I’m going to get him outta there, it’s going to be in dramatic fashion, in a fashion no one has ever seen.
His life is on the line for this fight and I do mean his life. I’m still trying to get me a body on my record.”

That surprises me but fair enough...

I think that Mike Tyson had the first quote there (and possible some of the others too) - some of the pre-match sledging can be somewhat.... distasteful, to put it mildly. Boxing is just as full of stbags as MMA

[popeyewhite]

E63eeeeee... said:

Few complex questions are successfully answered by pretending that they are simple.

Yet this one is very simple. It is unfair on every biological female competitor to let a woman who was once a man compete directly against them.

[aka_kerrly]

irocfan said:

RichB said:

Kawasicki said:

RichB said:

aka_kerrly said:

In terms of the MMA fighter, I can't stand that kind of attitude and bragging about beating a load of women including smashing skulls is just vulgar.

It's disgusting. Can you imagine a professional boxer bragging about fracturing someone's skull! It would be unthinkable.

Here are some unthinkable quotes from professional boxers;

“I try to catch [other boxers] on the tip of the nose, because i try to push the bone into the brain.”
“I’m the most brutal and ruthless conquerer there has ever been.”
“I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It’s ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm.”
“When you see me smash somebody’s skull, you enjoy it”
“I’m not much for talking. You know what I do. I put guys in body bags when I’m right”
“The act of treachery is an art, but the traitor himself is a piece of st.”
“My main objective is to be professional but to kill him.”
“Anybody can go and on this particular time we have bad blood against each other. This is the only sport where you can kill a man and get paid for it at the same time. It’s legal. So why not use my right to do so?”
“He’s like a fly in my ear, I can’t wait. I’m going to get him outta there, it’s going to be in dramatic fashion, in a fashion no one has ever seen.
His life is on the line for this fight and I do mean his life. I’m still trying to get me a body on my record.”

That surprises me but fair enough...

I think that Mike Tyson had the first quote there (and possible some of the others too) - some of the pre-match sledging can be somewhat.... distasteful, to put it mildly. Boxing is just as full of stbags as MMA

Using Mike Tyson as a benchmark of acceptable conduct is perhaps not that fair to boxing

We've all seen blokes pre boxing match giving it the big un an all the slagging off that goes with it but you still get the impression there is still a degree of respect between the two and the feeling that yes they want to prove whose best but not destroy each other in the process.

The Twitter quotes from that 'woman' show no hint of any care or respect for other competitors and strikes me that they know full well they have an obvious advantage.

[hepy]

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:

paulguitar said:

hepy said:

It's Mike Hailwood, and he has the medal to prove it.

Rescued a fellow competitor from a burning car and got the George medal for it.

We need to add Guy Edwards, Harald Ertl, Brett Lunger and Arturo Merzario

And David Purley...

I'd read about the Guy Edwards one, but not the others - can they all have a joint first place?

[anonymous-user]

Kawasicki said:

Here are some unthinkable quotes from professional boxers;

“I try to catch [other boxers] on the tip of the nose, because i try to push the bone into the brain.”
“I’m the most brutal and ruthless conquerer there has ever been.”
“I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It’s ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm.”
“When you see me smash somebody’s skull, you enjoy it”
“I’m not much for talking. You know what I do. I put guys in body bags when I’m right”
“The act of treachery is an art, but the traitor himself is a piece of st.”
“My main objective is to be professional but to kill him.”

“Anybody can go and on this particular time we have bad blood against each other. This is the only sport where you can kill a man and get paid for it at the same time. It’s legal. So why not use my right to do so?”

“He’s like a fly in my ear, I can’t wait. I’m going to get him outta there, it’s going to be in dramatic fashion, in a fashion no one has ever seen.
His life is on the line for this fight and I do mean his life. I’m still trying to get me a body on my record.”

Was this male fighters talking about female fighters ?

[MKnight702]

irocfan said:

braver than Nikki Lauder?

How on earth did it take 2 and a half pages to come up with Nikki, isn’t this supposed to be a motoring forum?

[anonymous-user]

With respect to pre fight interviews, it all went very WWF (wrestling not pandas) yonks ago, making outrageous statements is par for the course. David Haye, once declared that an upcoming fight against Audley Harrison would be as onesided as a gang rape, and I hope bitterly regretted having said it.

[biggbn]

irocfan said:

I think that Mike Tyson had the first quote there (and possible some of the others too) - some of the pre-match sledging can be somewhat.... distasteful, to put it mildly. Boxing is just as full of stbags as MMA

I actually think by and large MMA is populated by more humble, more respectful combatatants than boxing, but yes, there is a minority in both sports who say dreadful things, sometimes to their eternal detriment, see McGregor v Kabib for an example of karmic intervention. McGregor seemed to think it was ok to say the things he did to sell the fight and repeatedly said so during the fight to Kabib as Kabib remorselessley beat him up.....

[E63eeeeee...]

popeyewhite said:

E63eeeeee... said:

Few complex questions are successfully answered by pretending that they are simple.

Yet this one is very simple. It is unfair on every biological female competitor to let a woman who was once a man compete directly against them.

Yeah, that sounds simple just like the XY thing. Are there any actual examples of post GR - i.e. low testosterone trans women dominating sports? Because if not, it seems quite plausible that it's more complicated than that.

[popeyewhite]

E63eeeeee... said:

popeyewhite said:

E63eeeeee... said:

Few complex questions are successfully answered by pretending that they are simple.

Yet this one is very simple. It is unfair on every biological female competitor to let a woman who was once a man compete directly against them.

Yeah, that sounds simple just like the XY thing. Are there any actual examples of post GR - i.e. low testosterone trans women dominating sports? Because if not, it seems quite plausible that it's more complicated than that.

Makes no difference to whether it's fair or not to the biological female competitors, for reasons explained. Whether trans competitors and their supporters have tried to introduce mitigating factors - I imagine so but nothing will change the fact men have several physical advantages from birth that stay with them throughout their lives, whatever gender they choose to adopt.

[anonymous-user]

popeyewhite said:

E63eeeeee... said:

popeyewhite said:

E63eeeeee... said:

Few complex questions are successfully answered by pretending that they are simple.

Yet this one is very simple. It is unfair on every biological female competitor to let a woman who was once a man compete directly against them.

Yeah, that sounds simple just like the XY thing. Are there any actual examples of post GR - i.e. low testosterone trans women dominating sports? Because if not, it seems quite plausible that it's more complicated than that.

Makes no difference to whether it's fair or not to the biological female competitors, for reasons explained. Whether trans competitors and their supporters have tried to introduce mitigating factors - I imagine so but nothing will change the fact men have several physical advantages from birth that stay with them throughout their lives, whatever gender they choose to adopt.

Exactly. Any man entering a woman’s event means a woman losing out , no matter the placing.

[E63eeeeee...]

Iwantafusca said:

popeyewhite said:

E63eeeeee... said:

popeyewhite said:

E63eeeeee... said:

Few complex questions are successfully answered by pretending that they are simple.

Yet this one is very simple. It is unfair on every biological female competitor to let a woman who was once a man compete directly against them.

Yeah, that sounds simple just like the XY thing. Are there any actual examples of post GR - i.e. low testosterone trans women dominating sports? Because if not, it seems quite plausible that it's more complicated than that.

Makes no difference to whether it's fair or not to the biological female competitors, for reasons explained. Whether trans competitors and their supporters have tried to introduce mitigating factors - I imagine so but nothing will change the fact men have several physical advantages from birth that stay with them throughout their lives, whatever gender they choose to adopt.

Exactly. Any man entering a woman’s event means a woman losing out , no matter the placing.

And as soon as society comes up with a universally accepted and universally applicable definition of what man and woman mean, it will be as simple as that.

The underlying problem is that we're trying to adjust a relatively arbitrary idea of fairness (there should be separate competition for women) to introduce another arbitrary bit of fairness (we should try to be fair and inclusive to people who don't fit neatly into traditional binary ideas of woman or man). It's not dissimilar to the whole discussion about TUEs, where we've decided that it's better to allow people whose health requires them to take performance enhancing drugs that aren't allowed for other competitors rather than effectively barring them from competing.

Behind all of this is the fact that it's not a fair context to start with - elite sport after all is basically a lottery of genetics, geography, nationality, health, opportunity, availability of coaching, sponsorship, age in your year group and a bunch of other stuff.

Pretending there are simple answers gets us nowhere.

[anonymous-user]

E63eeeeee... said:

And as soon as society comes up with a universally accepted and universally applicable definition of what man and woman mean, it will be as simple as that.

Eh they already have lol

[biggbn]

Iwantafusca said:

E63eeeeee... said:

And as soon as society comes up with a universally accepted and universally applicable definition of what man and woman mean, it will be as simple as that.

Eh they already have lol

....they haven't, not universally...