The Running Thread Vol 2
Discussion
over_the_hill said:
That looks like a pretty solid plan already and contains all of the elements. If you did 15'ish in 1:42 you are already there !
However, a HM at the end of a Tri is a different prospect to a straight HM. Your legs will feel as if they are detached from you
body after getting off the bike and starting running but let's just focus on the HM for now.
Sub 1:30 is about 6:50 per-mile
Assuming you are OK health wise and a reasonable weight
Long Run
Aim for around 12/13m regularly and throw in a longer 15/16m run once every 3-4 weeks.
I think 2:30 is a bit long for a HM unless you are planning to move on to a full marathon.
If you did a 15/16 last week and feel great this week then no harm in doing two in a row.
However, don't skip to less than once every 3-4 weeks. If you don't feel great just grind it out.
Pace for 15/16m - steady and comfortable - 8mins/mile or slower.
There is a lot of benefit in over distance runs as they build aerobic strength, build leg strength,
make you tougher, prepare the body for the closing stages of a HM. (It's usually the final
3-4 miles where people start to slide off the pace.)
Pace for the 12/13m runs can be varied and you already seem to be doing this (the 2:30 run)
Throw in some tempo pace longer runs - 1m easy to warm up then 3 x (2m at HM pace, 2m easy)
or 2m easy to warm up, 3m at HM pace, 3m easy, 3m at HM pace, 2m easy.
Other times just run it as feeling
Hills
Essential part of any endurance plan and deliver a lot of bang for the buck.
Two main types of session here - Kenyan Hills or Up/Downs
Kenyan Hills - continuous running ideally on a loop, going strong up and over the top then steady/recover back down and around to the start
Up/Downs - find a hill 200-300m long and run up strongly, turn around jog/recover back down (doesn't have to be the Eiger and need camp-ons
to get up it)
With Up/Downs if you are doing a set of e.g. 12, don't do 12 straight off. Split into e.g. 2 x 6 or 3 x 4 with a few mins easy jog
between each set. This will help you to keep the quality up on the efforts.
They don't have to be flat out sprints, just strong controlled pace (it's up hill so you will be working hard anyway), maintain a good arm action, try and stay upright and look forward/up so you don't hunch over forward (easy to do when getting tired) as this will close up the chest and drop the hips.
Recovery/Easy
Need to be easy (many people go too fast on their easy days).
This could be 8:30min/mile pace or slower
If you go too fast on the easy days there is a good chance they will become junk miles and then impact on the
hard days when you want to be going fast.
Intervals
These need to mostly be around 5k pace which for 1:30 HM will equate to 6:20 min/mile
e.g. 5/6 x 1km with 90 secs recovery
4 x 1 mile with 2-2:30 recovery
Shorter faster sessions aiming to get down to around 6:00 min/mile
8-10 x 600m with 200m shuffle jog in 2min
10-12 x 500m with 100m shuffle jog in 90 secs
Alternative to Intervals is a Threshold type run
Should be comfortably uncomfortable. Just about able to manage 2-3 word replies in a conversation
Will probably be just under 10k pace so for a 1:30 HM will equate to about 6::40 min/mile
1m easy warm 3-4m Threshold, 1m easy
Wed - try and get this up to 60mins but keep it recovery/easy pace
Great Post thanks, I have read it a few times already! The hill training segment particularly that will really help! Thanks for spending the time writing that! However, a HM at the end of a Tri is a different prospect to a straight HM. Your legs will feel as if they are detached from you
body after getting off the bike and starting running but let's just focus on the HM for now.
Sub 1:30 is about 6:50 per-mile
Assuming you are OK health wise and a reasonable weight
Long Run
Aim for around 12/13m regularly and throw in a longer 15/16m run once every 3-4 weeks.
I think 2:30 is a bit long for a HM unless you are planning to move on to a full marathon.
If you did a 15/16 last week and feel great this week then no harm in doing two in a row.
However, don't skip to less than once every 3-4 weeks. If you don't feel great just grind it out.
Pace for 15/16m - steady and comfortable - 8mins/mile or slower.
There is a lot of benefit in over distance runs as they build aerobic strength, build leg strength,
make you tougher, prepare the body for the closing stages of a HM. (It's usually the final
3-4 miles where people start to slide off the pace.)
Pace for the 12/13m runs can be varied and you already seem to be doing this (the 2:30 run)
Throw in some tempo pace longer runs - 1m easy to warm up then 3 x (2m at HM pace, 2m easy)
or 2m easy to warm up, 3m at HM pace, 3m easy, 3m at HM pace, 2m easy.
Other times just run it as feeling
Hills
Essential part of any endurance plan and deliver a lot of bang for the buck.
Two main types of session here - Kenyan Hills or Up/Downs
Kenyan Hills - continuous running ideally on a loop, going strong up and over the top then steady/recover back down and around to the start
Up/Downs - find a hill 200-300m long and run up strongly, turn around jog/recover back down (doesn't have to be the Eiger and need camp-ons
to get up it)
With Up/Downs if you are doing a set of e.g. 12, don't do 12 straight off. Split into e.g. 2 x 6 or 3 x 4 with a few mins easy jog
between each set. This will help you to keep the quality up on the efforts.
They don't have to be flat out sprints, just strong controlled pace (it's up hill so you will be working hard anyway), maintain a good arm action, try and stay upright and look forward/up so you don't hunch over forward (easy to do when getting tired) as this will close up the chest and drop the hips.
Recovery/Easy
Need to be easy (many people go too fast on their easy days).
This could be 8:30min/mile pace or slower
If you go too fast on the easy days there is a good chance they will become junk miles and then impact on the
hard days when you want to be going fast.
Intervals
These need to mostly be around 5k pace which for 1:30 HM will equate to 6:20 min/mile
e.g. 5/6 x 1km with 90 secs recovery
4 x 1 mile with 2-2:30 recovery
Shorter faster sessions aiming to get down to around 6:00 min/mile
8-10 x 600m with 200m shuffle jog in 2min
10-12 x 500m with 100m shuffle jog in 90 secs
Alternative to Intervals is a Threshold type run
Should be comfortably uncomfortable. Just about able to manage 2-3 word replies in a conversation
Will probably be just under 10k pace so for a 1:30 HM will equate to about 6::40 min/mile
1m easy warm 3-4m Threshold, 1m easy
Wed - try and get this up to 60mins but keep it recovery/easy pace
To be clear I did a 15 mile run with a 13 mile split of 1:42
Enough about me! Over the hill do you run yourself or just coach?
joshcowin said:
Great Post thanks, I have read it a few times already! The hill training segment particularly that will really help! Thanks for spending the time writing that!
To be clear I did a 15 mile run with a 13 mile split of 1:42
Enough about me! Over the hill do you run yourself or just coach?
Even so a 13 mile comfortable pace @ 1:42 isn't a million miles away.To be clear I did a 15 mile run with a 13 mile split of 1:42
Enough about me! Over the hill do you run yourself or just coach?
Also hope the hamstring clears up quickly. In general you will not lose fitness by missing a day or so if you get a niggle.
Don't try and push on through it to try and avoid missing a couple of days otherwise you might end up missing a week or two.
With experience you get a a better feel for what's serious and needs a break and when you can carry on at lower intensity.
Still doing some easy shuffling these days but not much competitive.
But having been at it for about 40 years it's not something you can easily "give up"
It also sets a good example to the troops !
over_the_hill said:
Even so a 13 mile comfortable pace @ 1:42 isn't a million miles away.
Also hope the hamstring clears up quickly. In general you will not lose fitness by missing a day or so if you get a niggle.
Don't try and push on through it to try and avoid missing a couple of days otherwise you might end up missing a week or two.
With experience you get a a better feel for what's serious and needs a break and when you can carry on at lower intensity.
Still doing some easy shuffling these days but not much competitive.
But having been at it for about 40 years it's not something you can easily "give up"
It also sets a good example to the troops !
"Even so a 13 mile comfortable pace @ 1:42 isn't a million miles away." - That's great to hear as I haven't really set a date of when I want to give it a go!Also hope the hamstring clears up quickly. In general you will not lose fitness by missing a day or so if you get a niggle.
Don't try and push on through it to try and avoid missing a couple of days otherwise you might end up missing a week or two.
With experience you get a a better feel for what's serious and needs a break and when you can carry on at lower intensity.
Still doing some easy shuffling these days but not much competitive.
But having been at it for about 40 years it's not something you can easily "give up"
It also sets a good example to the troops !
On my injury, extremely frustrating as its looking like at least a whole week of no running, I will try the bike tomorrow but gave it complete rest today! I am addicted to training so its very hard for me to not do anything for a day, however as you say I am going to have to grow up and learn that I will do more damage carrying on with a niggle! I would imagine I over train anyway as I usually bike 3-4 times a week and swim twice a week on top of the running, I am going to have to find a good balance.
This time I will ramp up slowly from injury something like 30-35-40-45-50 taking a leaf out of Ross's book and easing in slower than you want but probably what the body needs!
joshcowin said:
I am addicted to training so its very hard for me to not do anything for a day, however as you say I am going to have to grow up and learn that I will do more damage carrying on with a niggle!
Likewise, I find days off and lower-intensity weeks really tough (sounds a bit like a humblebrag but it's not). Need to break the mindset of "well if I can't run today I'll just mope around and eat my own bodyweight".ETA: hill rep day today (first time doing them), then day off tomorrow (
...), then 40K over Sat and Sun.webstercivet said:
Likewise, I find days off and lower-intensity weeks really tough (sounds a bit like a humblebrag but it's not). Need to break the mindset of "well if I can't run today I'll just mope around and eat my own bodyweight".
ETA: hill rep day today (first time doing them), then day off tomorrow (...), then 40K over Sat and Sun.
I am the same, I also am not bragging I am still very slow ETA: hill rep day today (first time doing them), then day off tomorrow (
...), then 40K over Sat and Sun.
Hope the weekend goes well!
Easy 3.8 miles for me today, and I mean easy (average HR 135) immediately after a pretty tough but short bike session (16-17min warm up then 16 x 1min hard/1min off where my 1min power (controlled by my indoor trainer automatically) was around what I could sustain for maybe 6mins if I were to do it continuously). So a fairly productive morning.
I do have a little niggle on my left leg around my fibula head. I had it last Friday after my running session but I am not convinced it was that. I was fine after the session but later I went out to my car, as I stepped off the kerb at a slight angle I felt it and it's not been right since. Walking is fine, only notice it walking downstairs. Running I can feel it for about 15 seconds (as my left leg is trailing and then coming off of the ground) and then it disappears. It was not made worse by running over 8 miles Monday. It's no worse, definitely better than it was Saturday but improvement seems to have stopped. Not sure what to do.....carry on training or rest. If running clearly aggravated it then I'd stop, but it doesn't. My only concern is that it probably doesn't help, especially the fact I can feel it on starting running.
Rest day planned tomorrow anyway so will see what I feel like Saturday where I had planned for 2 mile warm up > 2x2miles off 90secs > 3mins > 1x1km then warm down. We shall see.
In other news, I found out my brother is close friends with a Nike ambassador, so they get 25% off everything. I am almost certainly going to get a pair of Vaporflys, but I'm thinking of waiting until the next generation is out, which should be within the next month or 2. Not sure whether I'll get the new version or the old version which may be even cheaper.
I do have a little niggle on my left leg around my fibula head. I had it last Friday after my running session but I am not convinced it was that. I was fine after the session but later I went out to my car, as I stepped off the kerb at a slight angle I felt it and it's not been right since. Walking is fine, only notice it walking downstairs. Running I can feel it for about 15 seconds (as my left leg is trailing and then coming off of the ground) and then it disappears. It was not made worse by running over 8 miles Monday. It's no worse, definitely better than it was Saturday but improvement seems to have stopped. Not sure what to do.....carry on training or rest. If running clearly aggravated it then I'd stop, but it doesn't. My only concern is that it probably doesn't help, especially the fact I can feel it on starting running.
Rest day planned tomorrow anyway so will see what I feel like Saturday where I had planned for 2 mile warm up > 2x2miles off 90secs > 3mins > 1x1km then warm down. We shall see.
In other news, I found out my brother is close friends with a Nike ambassador, so they get 25% off everything. I am almost certainly going to get a pair of Vaporflys, but I'm thinking of waiting until the next generation is out, which should be within the next month or 2. Not sure whether I'll get the new version or the old version which may be even cheaper.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
In other news, I found out my brother is close friends with a Nike ambassador, so they get 25% off everything. I am almost certainly going to get a pair of Vaporflys, but I'm thinking of waiting until the next generation is out, which should be within the next month or 2. Not sure whether I'll get the new version or the old version which may be even cheaper.
It's still a chunk of change to spend on them - and I say that as someone who would preach about how fast the Zoom Fly's are for days - I imagine the vapor/alpha variants feel much faster still, but its roughly 1 pair of the uber Alpha/Vapor shoes to 2 pairs of the almost uber Zoom shoes. I'm going to be hanging on for a pair of the ZF4's once my 3's wear out - a nice happy medium of still quick, but not silly money. Still 25% of a huge number is a nicer saving than 25% of a smaller number - man maths in action.If of course you can nab a pair - I imagine the 2's will sell out faster than a fast thing...
Just started running about 6 weeks ago and i've signed up for Windsor Half Marathon in September for something to aim for. So far I'm up to about 22km a week across 3 runs, last two weeks i've done 1 x 10km and then 2 x 5-6km and it seems OK so far. Quite a slow pace of jog but i'm actually really enjoying it, we have some beautiful countryside around us in the Chilterns but a lot of it can pass you by in a car. My aim is literally to finish the half at the moment. I'll try and push my longer run a bit more each week, perhaps even 1km a week - is that a good guideline?
My achilles was sore initially after running the first few times but slowing down a bit more and also strapping my ankle for a bit of support seems to have helped massively. Any other tips for training etc greatly appreciated.
My achilles was sore initially after running the first few times but slowing down a bit more and also strapping my ankle for a bit of support seems to have helped massively. Any other tips for training etc greatly appreciated.
Edited by dazmanultra on Thursday 11th March 16:20
dazmanultra said:
Just started running about 6 weeks ago and i've signed up for Windsor Half Marathon in September for something to aim for. So far I'm up to about 22km a week across 3 runs, last two weeks i've done 1 x 10km and then 2 x 5-6km and it seems OK so far. Quite a slow pace of jog but i'm actually really enjoying it, we have some beautiful countryside around us in the Chilterns but a lot of it can pass you by in a car. My aim is literally to finish the half at the moment. I'll try and push my longer run a bit more each week, perhaps even 1km a week - is that a good guideline?
My achilles was sore initially after running the first few times but slowing down a bit more and also strapping my ankle for a bit of support seems to have helped massively. Any other tips for training etc greatly appreciated.
Great stuff, I will let more accomplished posters comment on mileage and frequency, all I would say is don't run all your runs at the same pace, slower longer runs and maybe 1 quicker run where your running 60%-80% of your max but for less time/distance.My achilles was sore initially after running the first few times but slowing down a bit more and also strapping my ankle for a bit of support seems to have helped massively. Any other tips for training etc greatly appreciated.
Edited by dazmanultra on Thursday 11th March 16:20
Hope all goes to plan, keep us posted on progress!
joshcowin said:
dazmanultra said:
Just started running about 6 weeks ago and i've signed up for Windsor Half Marathon in September for something to aim for. So far I'm up to about 22km a week across 3 runs, last two weeks i've done 1 x 10km and then 2 x 5-6km and it seems OK so far. Quite a slow pace of jog but i'm actually really enjoying it, we have some beautiful countryside around us in the Chilterns but a lot of it can pass you by in a car. My aim is literally to finish the half at the moment. I'll try and push my longer run a bit more each week, perhaps even 1km a week - is that a good guideline?
My achilles was sore initially after running the first few times but slowing down a bit more and also strapping my ankle for a bit of support seems to have helped massively. Any other tips for training etc greatly appreciated.
Great stuff, I will let more accomplished posters comment on mileage and frequency, all I would say is don't run all your runs at the same pace, slower longer runs and maybe 1 quicker run where your running 60%-80% of your max but for less time/distance.My achilles was sore initially after running the first few times but slowing down a bit more and also strapping my ankle for a bit of support seems to have helped massively. Any other tips for training etc greatly appreciated.
Edited by dazmanultra on Thursday 11th March 16:20
Hope all goes to plan, keep us posted on progress!
webstercivet said:
joshcowin said:
dazmanultra said:
Just started running about 6 weeks ago and i've signed up for Windsor Half Marathon in September for something to aim for. So far I'm up to about 22km a week across 3 runs, last two weeks i've done 1 x 10km and then 2 x 5-6km and it seems OK so far. Quite a slow pace of jog but i'm actually really enjoying it, we have some beautiful countryside around us in the Chilterns but a lot of it can pass you by in a car. My aim is literally to finish the half at the moment. I'll try and push my longer run a bit more each week, perhaps even 1km a week - is that a good guideline?
My achilles was sore initially after running the first few times but slowing down a bit more and also strapping my ankle for a bit of support seems to have helped massively. Any other tips for training etc greatly appreciated.
Great stuff, I will let more accomplished posters comment on mileage and frequency, all I would say is don't run all your runs at the same pace, slower longer runs and maybe 1 quicker run where your running 60%-80% of your max but for less time/distance.My achilles was sore initially after running the first few times but slowing down a bit more and also strapping my ankle for a bit of support seems to have helped massively. Any other tips for training etc greatly appreciated.
Edited by dazmanultra on Thursday 11th March 16:20
Hope all goes to plan, keep us posted on progress!
I've slowly learned to vary - and will try my best to run easy runs at an easy pace, and throw in an interval session (usually once every 10 days or so as the mood takes me). My biggest problem now is that if i just go into auto mode when out on a run, i will end up and my usual favoured pace, and blow it if it was supposed to be an easy day! Running with a club (when it was allowed
) was a good thing to do as it helped greatly with learning the running ropes and keeping motivated - can't wait for all that to return.I set a half as my first goal when i started out - took me 18 months to get there, but now setting the target at a full marathon towards the end of this year, and a couple of HM's during the course. The Windsor half is. good one to start with - lovely route and scenery
A few people have mentioned staying injury free and that is the key.
It's stating the obvious but get injured and you are doing no running at all and possibly for a
long time if it's a bad 'un.
As others have noted backing off or easing up do not come naturally to people in endurance sport.
I know a few people who would rather chop off their arm and eat it raw than take a few days off.
I think endurance types are wired differently as the mentality is keep going whatever and get across
the line. This is probably why we gravitated towards endurance sport.
Sometimes dropping down to some light jogging on a softer surface for a few days will be enough.
Other times stopping completely will be required. Unfortunately we (myself included) tend to learn the
hard way with injuries but with time you should start to recognise when to stop.
Resting or easy weeks is another aspect as this gives you body a chance to rebuild and reset.
Normally this might occur as part of the training e.g. training for a Half you might do a couple
of 10ks along the way to see how things are progressing. A few easy days mini-taper before
and a few easy days after give your body a break. Of course there are no races at present so it's
just train, train, train. So perhaps schedule in an easier week every 6th week.
Don't view this as slacking - view it as an essential part of the training structure.
It's stating the obvious but get injured and you are doing no running at all and possibly for a
long time if it's a bad 'un.
As others have noted backing off or easing up do not come naturally to people in endurance sport.
I know a few people who would rather chop off their arm and eat it raw than take a few days off.
I think endurance types are wired differently as the mentality is keep going whatever and get across
the line. This is probably why we gravitated towards endurance sport.
Sometimes dropping down to some light jogging on a softer surface for a few days will be enough.
Other times stopping completely will be required. Unfortunately we (myself included) tend to learn the
hard way with injuries but with time you should start to recognise when to stop.
Resting or easy weeks is another aspect as this gives you body a chance to rebuild and reset.
Normally this might occur as part of the training e.g. training for a Half you might do a couple
of 10ks along the way to see how things are progressing. A few easy days mini-taper before
and a few easy days after give your body a break. Of course there are no races at present so it's
just train, train, train. So perhaps schedule in an easier week every 6th week.
Don't view this as slacking - view it as an essential part of the training structure.
dazmanultra said:
Just started running about 6 weeks ago and i've signed up for Windsor Half Marathon in September for something to aim for. So far I'm up to about 22km a week across 3 runs, last two weeks i've done 1 x 10km and then 2 x 5-6km and it seems OK so far. Quite a slow pace of jog but i'm actually really enjoying it, we have some beautiful countryside around us in the Chilterns but a lot of it can pass you by in a car. My aim is literally to finish the half at the moment. I'll try and push my longer run a bit more each week, perhaps even 1km a week - is that a good guideline?
My achilles was sore initially after running the first few times but slowing down a bit more and also strapping my ankle for a bit of support seems to have helped massively. Any other tips for training etc greatly appreciated.
The achilles might be down to doing something new so if it is calming down your body is probably adapting to the running.My achilles was sore initially after running the first few times but slowing down a bit more and also strapping my ankle for a bit of support seems to have helped massively. Any other tips for training etc greatly appreciated.
The other obvious one is are your trainers OK as in fairly new or old and knackered as that can lead to problems.
dazmanultra said:
Cheers guys I will try and change the pace around i am definitely guilty of pretty much running at the same pace all of the time. What are the best intervals to do?
As noted above only increase your training by 10% a week max. I would personally say 10% every 2-3 weeks.If someone is doing 25 miles/wk and they increase by 10% for 5 weeks they will be on 40+ miles/wk by week 6 - quite a jump.
With the elements of speed, distance and intensity, only change one variable at a time.
For road runs this typically simplifies down to two variable - speed and distance.
For interval sessions - a x b-distance with c-recovery
Speed - keep a, b and c the same but run faster
Distance - increase a and run more efforts or increase b and run a bit further in each effort
Intensity - reduce c but same number a, distance b and speed
I would do a few more weeks of what you are doing to build a good base before starting to introduce interval type work.
Then build into one session a week increasing gradually. Generally the best pace for interval work is around 5k pace
but as a new starter you may not know what this is as you have not had chance to do one.
Typically looking for 2+ minutes of effort to fully engage the aerobic energy system - this is the one we want to be training
for distance running.
A poster above said easy running is conversation pace which is correct. If you can't hold a conversation it ain't easy enough.
5k pace is about 85-90% effort or 2-3 word answer pace. You can just about blurt out 2-3 words between the gasps
but would rather not.
A good start session would be
1+ mile easy pace running to warm up
4 x 2mins at 5k pace with 2mins walk recovery between
1+ mile easy pace to cool down
Increase this by one effort at a time over a few weeks until you get to 6 x 2mins
From there keep at 6x with 2mins recovery but start to increase the time of the runs by perhaps 15secs while
holding the same pace.
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