The Wattage Thread

[zebedee]

okgo said:

How will being out riding all day be counter productive to building power?

Depends on the type of riding and the person, but as I understand it (and you are way more experienced than me I accept) your body can, if pushed too far, begin to use muscle protein for energy. I also meant (and expressed it badly) that it isn't the best way to build power because you can get much bigger gains much quicker if you target the way you ride (and I know you know that!) If you keep mixing up the type of riding, adding a sprint and a high threshold bit here and there, then fair enough, but the point I was trying to get across is just because you have been on the bike a lot won't mean you are building power, especially if you always ride in the same way.

I noticed a big difference when I followed a 6 week program and started doing sets of 10 sec all out sprints and recovery, then 2 days later riding just under threshold for around 3 mins with 1 min off. These are things I never do on a day to day basis and nearly killed me, but my god I felt stronger and the numbers were up at the end of 6 weeks.

I guess what I am saying is that in terms of power (which the most recent poster was querying) you will plateau and perhaps begin to decline if you have already peaked unless and until you start to mix things up

[Dixie]

I do get what your saying there. I have friends who have ridden for years who are still way slower than i am. I put it down to the way i ride. I do tend to push myself probably 80% of the ride and do do a fair few sprint bits (if there's a segment to be had ).

I have improved greatly over the course of the year. I just anticipated a noticeable gain when doing an FTP test.


I think a little more structure is the way to go. Just ordered a HRM too so i should be able to train more effectively.

[anonymous-user]

Dixie said:

I do get what your saying there. I have friends who have ridden for years who are still way slower than i am. I put it down to the way i ride. I do tend to push myself probably 80% of the ride and do do a fair few sprint bits (if there's a segment to be had ).

"train the same, stay the same"

Unless you already train in a structures and varied way of course

[okgo]

zebedee said:

Depends on the type of riding and the person, but as I understand it (and you are way more experienced than me I accept) your body can, if pushed too far, begin to use muscle protein for energy. I also meant (and expressed it badly) that it isn't the best way to build power because you can get much bigger gains much quicker if you target the way you ride (and I know you know that!) If you keep mixing up the type of riding, adding a sprint and a high threshold bit here and there, then fair enough, but the point I was trying to get across is just because you have been on the bike a lot won't mean you are building power, especially if you always ride in the same way.

I noticed a big difference when I followed a 6 week program and started doing sets of 10 sec all out sprints and recovery, then 2 days later riding just under threshold for around 3 mins with 1 min off. These are things I never do on a day to day basis and nearly killed me, but my god I felt stronger and the numbers were up at the end of 6 weeks.

I guess what I am saying is that in terms of power (which the most recent poster was querying) you will plateau and perhaps begin to decline if you have already peaked unless and until you start to mix things up

No you are right. That isn't to say that if you have the time a lot of volume is a bad thing. There was a guy on the Wattage group who exclusively did z21 stuff and still saw a significant increase in his vo2 max power.

My training is currently so varied purely for reasons stated, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing expecting a different result as they say.

[Birdthom]

Hello everyone, my first appearance on this thread.

I live next door to Loughborough Uni and have recently been spending quite a bit of time on the wattbikes in the elite gym there.

Last year was my first season racing. I got to third cat on the back of decent basic fitness and spinning away at a high cadence most of the time, but I'm a poor climber and I don't have a strong sprint. In essence, I'm a very low-rent Wiggo. I'd like to get 2nd cat this year, and I know I need a bit more to my riding if I'm going to achieve that.

I'm about to start trying to work on proper interval training for 8 weeks to work up my power in time for the start of the season. I don't have a coach/mentor but I've been reading up on the basics. I have no idea what I'm capable of achieving but my stats at the minute aren't very impressive, so I can only improve.

I've today been asked by the guys at the Uni if I want to take part in an EIS/University study titled "the combined effects of supra-maximal sprint cycling training and partial blood flow restriction on endurance and strength based physiological variables and performance".

The study involves visits to the EIS/Uni lab twice a week over two or three months, carrying out VO2 testing, time trial and sprint testing, recording diet etc. There will be two groups - one subject to blood flow restriction and the other following standard active recovery.

So, the question is: would you do the study?

Edited by Birdthom on Thursday 9th January 12:24

[okgo]

No reason not to, if you have the free time. But I would ask them what they're going to give you as a result, a vo2 max figure isn't all that useful in isolation, however if they have you doing a RAMP test or similar while hooked up to the machines etc it could be a bit more worthwhile to show what your body is doing at varying levels of output.

But really I would not put my value on it, and your time may be better spent training. Worth doing a MAP/Ramp test every now and again to see how you're improving, you could do this on a wattbike easily enough.

[lynus2004]

Birdthom - Hi, we met at Mallory last season, I am in the same position, would really like to aim at 2nd cat but not sure the best way to get there.

I was asked to do some testing at Nottingham Uni but when I did a bit of digging it turned out that the information they would be collecting was not of much use to me from a training point of view so I decided not to bother. I'd echo Okgo and suggest you find out what info they will be providing.

[Birdthom]

Thanks both.

The participant info states that the program starts with V02 ramp testing, 15k time trial and Wingate test (using an SRM ergometer & gas analysis system) to determine whether I'm a suitable candidate. After that the experiment consists of two regular protocols - (a) 15k time trial with a maximal sprint and (b) increasing numbers of Wingate tests. The initial tests are then repeated at the end of the program. I'm promised 'extensive feedback relating to my physiology as a result of the tests conducted during the study'.

I don't have plenty of time (own business and three young kids!) but I figure it fits in with my training plans anyway. Increasing numbers of Wingate tests would tie in well and it would probably force me to delve deeper than if I am just training on my own. I might learn a few things along the way. I reckon I'll go for it.

Lynus, good to hear from you, have you seen the recent news that we've got Mallory again this year? Sounds like we'll both be trying to take points off each other :-)

[okgo]

Go along then, when you get the numbers it might give you an idea of what to work on.

Are you using a powermeter now? If so, where are you at? 2nd cat is a good goal and should be doable as long as you are fairly well trained..

[Birdthom]

okgo said:

Go along then, when you get the numbers it might give you an idea of what to work on.

Are you using a powermeter now? If so, where are you at? 2nd cat is a good goal and should be doable as long as you are fairly well trained..

I don't have a powermeter on my bike, but I've been using wattbikes for the last three months as part of my winter training. I've done a few measurements so far, but I haven't been hitting the intervals properly yet - I'll be starting next week to give me an 8-week run in to racing. I can't remember what the stats were off the top of my head, but essentially they showed me as Joe Average 3rd cat across the board when compared the usual chart. My consolation is that this is coming off the back of a period of more relaxed eating/drinking/training - I haven't raced since September. I'm now picking up the training again, so my stats should improve. I also don't think I have pushed myself that hard on the testing I have done, I'm sure I could go harder.

I have had minor points in 3rd cat races, but I'll need regular better results to get up to 2nd. I am good at sticking to my training and looking after my diet and drinking, but I need to train in a more focused way. Last year I just went out and rode lots of tempo/threshold. Any hints/tips beyond what I'm doing already would be much appreciated.

[Birdthom]

Went down to the lab and met the guys yesterday afternoon. Very impressive setup, and they are real enthusiasts.

It will be two really hard sprint sessions per week, with my mileage outside the lab to be regular base miles. I figure that's probably a good routine for this time of year anyway, and the discipline will do me good. It's an EIS-funded study to find things out which may be of use to their elite guys. The idea is that everyone involved should see an improvement; the question is whether the group subject to blood flow restriction during recovery see an increased training effect (due to localised hypoxia).

As I left (5.30) one of the lab guys was heading into the altitude chamber to do his evening training at 3000m. Perk of the job, I guess!

All the training and testing is done blind with no stats visible until the end of the program. That should be in about 6 weeks time - I'll post the before and after results up here when I get them.

[Sandersports]

After years of road / track racing man & Boy i did a Ramp test by one of the most reputable lot out there and even from my small amount of information i see last night, briefly its made the 17 pages of reading quite logical on this thread ... Roll on 2014 season i say !

Off to by a Power meter now , think I'm bloody hooked !!

[okgo]

Ramp tests are horrid

What was your final 1 min?

[Sandersports]

Will get a actual file on all number early next week , however they did give me a figure of between 455-460w as my last min avg .

[okgo]

Very good, assuming you're not 90kg you must be a very decent rider.

[Sandersports]

Cheers , i dont actually know if thats any good, as i had to get on my toes quite quick after the test . Due to have a in-depth conversation with them next week on the results . I know they were very happy with everything for the start of Jan and actually used the words 'impressed' . Looks like this Sweet Spot training actually works you know . Weighed before the test at 75.1kgs ... 3 kilos over the weight after a stage race in July , quite logical after my xmas lay off and stuffing myself silly !

[okgo]

Assuming all correct etc, then its very common that someones FTP (what they're capable of for an hour at full tilt) falls between 72-77% of their MAP (the average power of the final minute in the RAMP test, so 450 or so for you), so if we assumed 75%, you'd be around 340W FTP, which at 72kg (race weight?) would give you 4.7 w/kg, which according to Coggans power profiling chart would put you at the upper end of 2nd cat fitness pushing into 1st cat territory

[Sandersports]

I would say Coggans power profiling chart is pretty bang on then ... I jump up and down between 1st & 2nd cat like tarts knickers !

[superkartracer]

I've never done a RAMP test but have been doing 5 minute tests at the best power i can hold ( these are evil ). I'm wondering if the MAP test would be better and produce more watts in the final min. I find starting off at the most power you can hold then holding that for 5 mins is very hard indeed.

[okgo]

The ramp test isn't a session you would do often, but to gauge improvement its pretty good as it doesn't take long, it does test you to the max, and you can set the conditions to be the same each time you test.