Unkown hand/arm signal from cyclist

[Session]

Used to teach safe road cycling as an instructor. Tail end charlie (last man in pack) is usually one of the more confident in a group and as such is selected for the role as he is meant to cycle two abreast out into the lane to ensure drivers slow down and give appropriate space.

Not sure why you were tooting horn, advanced driving instructors have told me that even if a horn or flash of the lights is meant to mean one thing in the rules you have to take into account how most road users will interpret it and use it accordingly, this is what makes it 'advanced' driving.

Cyclists are meant to cycle at least 1/3rd out into the lane. They are entitled to take up as much room as a car as they have as much if not more legal right to be on the road. National cycling standards published by the govt prescribe this.

If a car drove up behind me tooting his horn I'd think 'knob' and not change anything I'm doing frankly. It's the drivers job to wait until he can safely overtake me whilst giving me as much room as a horse. I really couldn't care less if I'm adding 30 seconds to his journey, my job is to ensure my safety and that of the group I am cycling with and not the speed of car drivers' journeys.

If the OP regards cyclists as cretins for not moving out of his way and as a general nuisance I suggest he has some serious issues with his view of the world and his idea of safe courteous driving.

[Johnnytheboy]

Session said:

If a car drove up behind me tooting his horn I'd think 'knob' and not change anything I'm doing frankly. It's the drivers job to wait until he can safely overtake me whilst giving me as much room as a horse. I really couldn't care less if I'm adding 30 seconds to his journey, my job is to ensure my safety and that of the group I am cycling with and not the speed of car drivers' journeys.

If the OP regards cyclists as cretins for not moving out of his way and as a general nuisance I suggest he has some serious issues with his view of the world and his idea of safe courteous driving.

It sounds like you have some serious issues with your view of the world and your idea of safe courteous cycling if:

1: your instant reaction to someone tooting to alert you to their presence is to think they're a 'knob'.

2: you 'couldn't care less' if you're holding other people up.

We all have to use the roads together - this kind of "two wheels good, four wheels bad" attitude just makes it less likely that drivers are going to want to be as accommodating as possible to cyclists, if you think they're all knobs who you couldn't care less about holding up.

I give horses loads of room because the riders are invariably courteous; I'm starting to wonder why I do the same for cyclists if that's what they think about me. Or maybe it's just the internet cyclists.

[Slaav]

Johnnytheboy said:

Session said:

If a car drove up behind me tooting his horn I'd think 'knob' and not change anything I'm doing frankly. It's the drivers job to wait until he can safely overtake me whilst giving me as much room as a horse. I really couldn't care less if I'm adding 30 seconds to his journey, my job is to ensure my safety and that of the group I am cycling with and not the speed of car drivers' journeys.

If the OP regards cyclists as cretins for not moving out of his way and as a general nuisance I suggest he has some serious issues with his view of the world and his idea of safe courteous driving.

It sounds like you have some serious issues with your view of the world and your idea of safe courteous cycling if:

1: your instant reaction to someone tooting to alert you to their presence is to think they're a 'knob'.

2: you 'couldn't care less' if you're holding other people up.

We all have to use the roads together - this kind of "two wheels good, four wheels bad" attitude just makes it less likely that drivers are going to want to be as accommodating as possible to cyclists, if you think they're all knobs who you couldn't care less about holding up.

I give horses loads of room because the riders are invariably courteous; I'm starting to wonder why I do the same for cyclists if that's what they think about me. Or maybe it's just the internet cyclists.

So it wasn't just me then that thoought the post from Session was a little aggressive and 'fk you'?

I can see what he is saying but surely if drivers took a similar stance from their point of view, it would be even worse out there? And I am about to go out for a ride!!!



ps - Should we always legislate and act in accordance with cretinous behaviour? SHould we always assume that the 'other' person is a cretin? Not for me I am afraid.... Naive possibly and God I hope that I don't get proved wrong.

[ratbane]

Slaav said:

So it wasn't just me then that thoought the post from Session was a little aggressive and 'fk you'?

I can see what he is saying but surely if drivers took a similar stance from their point of view, it would be even worse out there? And I am about to go out for a ride!!!



ps - Should we always legislate and act in accordance with cretinous behaviour? SHould we always assume that the 'other' person is a cretin? Not for me I am afraid.... Naive possibly and God I hope that I don't get proved wrong.

I ride a road bike (a lot), and drive 10s of thousands of miles a year in a car. I consider myself curtious both ways. I do not mind waiting a few 10s of seconds to get past a cyclist who is negotiating potholes etc, and I am never miffed at 2 a breast groups. Similarly, whilst cycling, if i see a passing place for a car, I will pull in slightly to let the car pass on a narrow road. I know of no cyclists who TRY to prevent cars from getting past them in a safe manner.

A driver who is behind a cyclist/group of cyclists should be aware that he is in a very large lump of metal, which can cause serious harm. Just give people time, chill out, and you'll find that those moronic/cretinous/scumbag cyclists don't actually reduce your travel time by anything more than a wasps member.

I can tell you, that the standard of drivers out there, approaching cyclists from behind, rushing to overtake them, cutting across at bends, beeping aggresively as they pass is appalling. It happens every time I ride, and makes no difference where you ride on the road.

When I was being taught to drive by my father, his most profound advice was "treat everyone else on the road as an idiot". He didn't mean literally, just that you can never be totally sure what another road user is about to do. That holds true for both motorists and cyclists.

Edited by ratbane on Friday 8th April 12:36

Edited by ratbane on Friday 8th April 12:42

Edited by ratbane on Friday 8th April 12:44

[Johnnytheboy]

Slaav said:

So it wasn't just me then that thoought the post from Session was a little aggressive and 'fk you'?

I can see what he is saying but surely if drivers took a similar stance from their point of view, it would be even worse out there? And I am about to go out for a ride!!!

Exactly. Any attempt at discussion about the interaction between cars and bicycles on the internet provokes a reaction akin to poking an ants' nest with a stick. I can't help thinking it's counterproductive.

[zebedee]

Johnnytheboy said:

It sounds like you have some serious issues with your view of the world and your idea of safe courteous cycling if:

1: your instant reaction to someone tooting to alert you to their presence is to think they're a 'knob'.

2: you 'couldn't care less' if you're holding other people up.

We all have to use the roads together - this kind of "two wheels good, four wheels bad" attitude just makes it less likely that drivers are going to want to be as accommodating as possible to cyclists, if you think they're all knobs who you couldn't care less about holding up.

I give horses loads of room because the riders are invariably courteous; I'm starting to wonder why I do the same for cyclists if that's what they think about me. Or maybe it's just the internet cyclists.

Re: 1) why is the person tooting to let the rider know of his presence though? You wouldn't toot a horse, unless you wanted a hoof through the windscreen... Whilst riding, more often that not, when you hear a horn (which is used for the sole reason as "letting you know I am here" the cyclist would think "so what?" I also wouldn't adjust my riding simply because someone blew a horn. 100% of the time they have, I knew they were already due to engine and tyre noise. The reality, as I think we all know, is most people use the horn to say "I consider that you are taking up too much of the lane and I want you out of my way and don't understand what you are doing there, cyclists should ride 1" from the verge". A big problem with simply moving to the kerb to let them past is that the guys behind will invariably follow through, irrespective of the fact that the road might be narrowing again or approaching another blind bend or pothole. Sorry, but the car just has to wait until it is safe to pass. Simples. Cyclists don't weave around trying to stop cars passing, I have NEVER seen that. So the answer to be considerate for both is, I'm afraid to say, cars just have to accept that on the open road bikes are slower, if it upsets motorists that much, leave the house 20 seconds earlier.

Re: 2) If I am holding someone up, it is for a reason, the road isn't safe to pass me. I genuinely don't care about that and it isn't being inconsiderate, it is simply me trying to be safe. I am not going to stop at the side of the road to let traffic past, my commute takes me 1:20 as it is and at best it would save the overtaking car about 20 seconds, which they would lose as soon as they hit the next junction or traffic queue! In those circumstances, it would be the motorist being inconsiderate for expecting me to do so! I will however wave people past as I crest a blind hill or coming out of a blind bend if I have an advance view that they don't, so surely that is as considerate as a motorist could reasonably expect?

Agree hard to agree on internet about driving and riding, but think the O/P would have got a more reasoned answer if he hadn't called the group 'cretins' and suggested that they should have moved out of his way. At least he had enough mental reserve to appreciate the situation meant he should slow down and wait until safe, many others wouldn't, or would have reacted badly to the cyclists not doing as the motorist would wrongly perceive that they 'should have'.

[Johnnytheboy]

It's the utter lack of any give-and-take from some internet cyclists in posts like that that I find slightly unsettling. So much hate...

[Parsnip]

Johnnytheboy said:

It's the utter lack of any give-and-take from some internet cyclists in posts like that that I find slightly unsettling. So much hate...

If you read my post, you see it isn't hate, but a desire to survive - it's all well and good saying people should be courteous and share the road - but if it comes down to being courteous and ensuring my safety then politeness is going out of the window.

Give and take (as I said above) doesn't work - 99% of drivers cause no issue, 1% do - so you need to treat 100% of them like they are trying to kill you - I know of very few cyclists (other than those Critical Mass bellends) that purposely disrupt drivers just for fun - they do it to be safe. Will I take the whole lane going round a roundabout and hold cars up - of course. Will I take the whole lane when the road is too narrow to overtake me - of course - see my point?

[Slaav]

Parsnip said:

Johnnytheboy said:

It's the utter lack of any give-and-take from some internet cyclists in posts like that that I find slightly unsettling. So much hate...

If you read my post, you see it isn't hate, but a desire to survive - it's all well and good saying people should be courteous and share the road - but if it comes down to being courteous and ensuring my safety then politeness is going out of the window.

Give and take (as I said above) doesn't work - 99% of drivers cause no issue, 1% do - so you need to treat 100% of them like they are trying to kill you - I know of very few cyclists (other than those Critical Mass bellends) that purposely disrupt drivers just for fun - they do it to be safe. Will I take the whole lane going round a roundabout and hold cars up - of course. Will I take the whole lane when the road is too narrow to overtake me - of course - see my point?

Good point there at the end... even as a beginner, I often take the middle ground ina lane and hold cars up at a roundabout - BUT I then make a big point of thanking them and riding on. If I do that, I am of the naive hope that the car driver (regardless of how cretinous or otherwise they are) may realise why I did it and not get into a rage with me; nor with anyone else who does it as they will slowly (if not quickly) start to realise that not all cyclists are indeed cretins! (See what I did there.... )

[yellowjack]

Case in point on Wednesday. Coming off the fens into a town, big black Audi drops a gear, revs the ts off, and passes me way too close, cutting right in on me too. No excuse, he must have seen me - it's the fens, arrow straight for miles and spirit level flat - nothing coming the other way, just being a complete 4rse. Several other drivers pass me a little close for comfort, then, as I get to the top of the slight hill into the town, I come upon the back of a large queue of traffic waiting at a 'T' junction. You should have seen the look on Audi man's face as I pass him in the (empty) oncoming lane, and grin a huge cheesy grin, waving as I pass. Proof, if any where needed, that cyclists simply DO NOT DELAY car drivers on their journeys. It was, by the way, literally miles before he passed me again, and by this time he was stuck in a stream of other vehicles, and had no opportunity to play silly games a second time, although he probably still had a face like a bulldog chewing a wasp.

[RV8]

Perhaps they were just reminding you to keep your distance.

I've had motorists overtake / attempt to overtake me while cycling, always at one specific junction while i've got my right arm out to signal that I am turning. I bet there are hundreds of motorists who do not know basic things like this, the daft thing with the behaviour at the junction I refer to is that it is less than 20 meters from a set of lights, some motorists seem so preoccupied with getting past that they are oblivious to the fact that the traffic light ahead is red, they will have to come to a stop regardless and have zero chance of being held up by me. I now position myself well into my lane well before the junction to make sure I am visible, I have not been beeped yet, nor should I expect to be in most scenarios, I can't see many circumstances where beeping a cyclist is needed.

[Session]

Most people use a horn as a way to express their anger or tell you to get out their way hence my normal reaction is to think wtf!

I don't care if I'm holding someone up because my safety and that of the group I am in is more important than their journey time. I know that the way I cycle is not deliberately intended to slow trtaffic down so why move out of anyone's way?

Bbeing on a bicycle I am more vulnerable so I have to ride defensively, nothing aggressive about my attitude or view of the world, I've had plenty of negative experience with drivers and plenty of positive experience too just as when I'm driving. Most negative experiences are in town driving to be honest and it's because drivers are in a rush and don't look properly, this emans I have to anticipate it and adjust my riding style to keep me safe. This is the proper way to cycle and is how it is taught i.e. take 1/3rd of the lane so drivers have to give you more room when overtaking.

[Mr POD]

itsnotarace said:

Nigel Worc's said:

I could stay at my present speed, straddle the white line, and pass the cyclists without issue, I would have chosen this option if the front two outriding cretins would move over .... as they are supposed to do.

Excuse me? Where exactly in the highway code did you glean that nugget of information from? A cyclist is entitled to take up an entire lane, in exactly the same way as a horse or a motorcycle is. It is called riding defensively.

Learn a bit of patience, moron

During my cycling proficiency training in 1979, the teacher, a none cycling, none driving, pubic transport user, told us in no uncertain terms that we could ride 2, but NEVER 3, abreast, unless there was a car in the distance that would require us to travel in single file. He instilled this in us as the LAW. I almost failed, because I overtook someone on test day (a day when 100 plus kids from all the local primary schools were tasked with cycling on a course around the town which was about 3 miles, with teachers and volanteers on every junction)
He also demanded that we "Keep out of the bloody gutters, you idiot, it's your road, don't let the cars steal it from you"

I digress. You must treat a pack of cyclists like a milk float. They may have been taught by a different teacher, who hated them and wanted them dead.

[Slaav]

RV8 said:

Perhaps they were just reminding you to keep your distance.

I've had motorists overtake / attempt to overtake me while cycling, always at one specific junction while i've got my right arm out to signal that I am turning. I bet there are hundreds of motorists who do not know basic things like this, the daft thing with the behaviour at the junction I refer to is that it is less than 20 meters from a set of lights, some motorists seem so preoccupied with getting past that they are oblivious to the fact that the traffic light ahead is red, they will have to come to a stop regardless and have zero chance of being held up by me. I now position myself well into my lane well before the junction to make sure I am visible, I have not been beeped yet, nor should I expect to be in most scenarios, I can't see many circumstances where beeping a cyclist is needed.

Not arguing for arguments sake but are you serious?

You cannot see or imagine any circumstances where a little beep of a horn is warranted?

Do you ever drive or ride in London? Sounds as though you don't!

As I have said before, there is a massive difference between a little beep and a 4 second aggressive blast of a two tone air horn!

Cyclist with iPod?
Cyclist sitting at lights and giving no indication whatsoever of which direction they intend to take?
Car sitting indicating left at a roundabout, turning or lights, and a cyclist starts filtering up the inside as if they haven't seen or don't care the car is turning left?
A cyclist hasn't noticed that a car ahead is paying no attention and is filtering and about to be knocked off?

All of the above have happened in the last week to me.

(I admit there will be arguments against the use of the horn, even if only a little strangled beep, but the horn isn't just a stress management tool!)

[will_]

Johnnytheboy said:

It's the utter lack of any give-and-take from some internet cyclists in posts like that that I find slightly unsettling. So much hate...

I love the way you repeatedly use the term "internet cyclist" on every thread you post on regarding cyclists.

Are you an internet driver? Or an internet pedestrian?

Or do you mean a forum user, like yourself?

Or do you mean that cyclists who contribute to threads aren't proper cyclists, or somehow don't have a valid opinion, because it's the internet? It's most strange.

[Johnnytheboy]

Sorry for using my own jargon, I've been using "internet cyclist" or "webcyclist" for so long I've forgotten where I got it from!

It's my shorthand for the someone that joins forums (oddly often car/drivng forums) to talk about cycling stuff, more specifically to blame cars and drivers for everything that happens to cyclists.

I ride a bike but I'm not interested enough in it to talk about it on the internet, hence I'm not an internet cyclist. I suppose it'd be fair to call me an 'internet driver', but I imagine that wouldn't make me part of a very small subset on PH .

[RV8]

Slaav said:

RV8 said:

Perhaps they were just reminding you to keep your distance.

I've had motorists overtake / attempt to overtake me while cycling, always at one specific junction while i've got my right arm out to signal that I am turning. I bet there are hundreds of motorists who do not know basic things like this, the daft thing with the behaviour at the junction I refer to is that it is less than 20 meters from a set of lights, some motorists seem so preoccupied with getting past that they are oblivious to the fact that the traffic light ahead is red, they will have to come to a stop regardless and have zero chance of being held up by me. I now position myself well into my lane well before the junction to make sure I am visible, I have not been beeped yet, nor should I expect to be in most scenarios, I can't see many circumstances where beeping a cyclist is needed.

Not arguing for arguments sake but are you serious?

You cannot see or imagine any circumstances where a little beep of a horn is warranted?

Do you ever drive or ride in London? Sounds as though you don't!

As I have said before, there is a massive difference between a little beep and a 4 second aggressive blast of a two tone air horn!

Cyclist with iPod?
Cyclist sitting at lights and giving no indication whatsoever of which direction they intend to take?
Car sitting indicating left at a roundabout, turning or lights, and a cyclist starts filtering up the inside as if they haven't seen or don't care the car is turning left?
A cyclist hasn't noticed that a car ahead is paying no attention and is filtering and about to be knocked off?

All of the above have happened in the last week to me.

(I admit there will be arguments against the use of the horn, even if only a little strangled beep, but the horn isn't just a stress management tool!)

I said many, not any.

There is a difference, you know!

Besides I've lived in London, my flat mate or any cab drivers I used beeped their horns more often than they depressed the clutch, tbh in London it's even harder to tell what someone is beeping for being as everyone does it, often with no meaning other than frustration.

I take it that beeping is to make others aware of your presence, if you do as you suggested and start beeping to warn of perceived dangers further ahead you are basically making the cyclist aware of you, in other words you are assuming that a vehicle beeping draws attention to potential danger rather than itself - this sometimes works but it is not always the case and it is difficult to know what morse code someone is trying to spell out with their horn sometimes or even if the message is for you.

I just assume most beepers they are letting me know they are there, even if I'm already aware, although I do think some people seem to like letting people know 'they are there' more assertively than others, when it is obvious or to excuse driving like a ie; bombing down a country lane and using the horn rather than the brake for blind bends for example.

[zebedee]

Johnnytheboy said:

Sorry for using my own jargon, I've been using "internet cyclist" or "webcyclist" for so long I've forgotten where I got it from!

It's my shorthand for the someone that joins forums (oddly often car/drivng forums) to talk about cycling stuff, more specifically to blame cars and drivers for everything that happens to cyclists.

I ride a bike but I'm not interested enough in it to talk about it on the internet, hence I'm not an internet cyclist. I suppose it'd be fair to call me an 'internet driver', but I imagine that wouldn't make me part of a very small subset on PH .

but this is the pedal powered bit of the Pistonheads forum, so something drew you in, and fairly reasonable to assume that people in here would be quite interested in it and hence by your definition 'internet cyclists'!

[Johnnytheboy]

zebedee said:

but this is the pedal powered bit of the Pistonheads forum, so something drew you in, and fairly reasonable to assume that people in here would be quite interested in it and hence by your definition 'internet cyclists'!

The "what's new" button drew me in.

[will_]

Johnnytheboy said:

Sorry for using my own jargon, I've been using "internet cyclist" or "webcyclist" for so long I've forgotten where I got it from!

It's my shorthand for the someone that joins forums (oddly often car/drivng forums) to talk about cycling stuff, more specifically to blame cars and drivers for everything that happens to cyclists.

I ride a bike but I'm not interested enough in it to talk about it on the internet, hence I'm not an internet cyclist. I suppose it'd be fair to call me an 'internet driver', but I imagine that wouldn't make me part of a very small subset on PH .

But you pop up in an awful lot of cycling threads, you're a cyclist, so perhaps you're an "internet cyclist" yourself?

Apart from the occassional newby loony (who disappears as quickly as they appear) I've never seen anyone on PH "blame cars and drivers for everything that happens to cyclists". What cyclists do (and particularly strongly, sometimes, often in the face of overbearing ignorance and because - often - such ignorance or aggression has risked the cyclists' life) is provide a different perspective to the majority of PH who don't cycle; who have no idea what cycling is like; and who sometimes appear to lack the empathy and ability to consider a particular incident from the cyclists' (or anyone elses) point of view. To write all of these posters' opinions off as the rantings of "internet cyclists" is fairly dismissive in itself.

Most cyclists on PH are drivers first and foremost. They therefore have a much better idea of cycling and driving and how the two inter-relate, compared to someone who only ever drives.