Two Abreast - aggressive British drivers

Two Abreast - aggressive British drivers

Author
Discussion

PinkHouse

1,585 posts

63 months

Friday 17th November 2023
quotequote all
There's been mostly well-intentioned discussion/debate on both perspectives from car drivers and cyclists in this thread which has been great to see.

However given the title of the thread being specific to British drivers, I think the crux if the issue hasn't really been discussed. I think the main issues that cause tension between drivers and cyclists are somewhat related which I've simplified below:
  1. The view that anything seen as pro-cycling is automatically anti-car
  2. The politicisation if cycling where a vocal minority, some local authorities, govt ministers use the promotion of cycling to force through unpopular legislation, infrastructure, road charging schemes etc.
This obviously causes tension/distaste that manifests in many of the behaviours experienced out on the roads.

Obviously mentioning politics usually opens a can of worms and taking away from the political discussion, I think (hope) we can all agree that there seems to be an issue upgrading cycling infrastructure in sensible ways in Britain, compared to implementations across Europe, where many have commented that the driver-cycling relationships have been more cordial

YorkshireStu

4,418 posts

206 months

Friday 17th November 2023
quotequote all
PinkHouse said:
There's been mostly well-intentioned discussion/debate on both perspectives from car drivers and cyclists in this thread which has been great to see.

However given the title of the thread being specific to British drivers, I think the crux if the issue hasn't really been discussed. I think the main issues that cause tension between drivers and cyclists are somewhat related which I've simplified below:
  1. The view that anything seen as pro-cycling is automatically anti-car
  2. The politicisation if cycling where a vocal minority, some local authorities, govt ministers use the promotion of cycling to force through unpopular legislation, infrastructure, road charging schemes etc.
This obviously causes tension/distaste that manifests in many of the behaviours experienced out on the roads.

Obviously mentioning politics usually opens a can of worms and taking away from the political discussion, I think (hope) we can all agree that there seems to be an issue upgrading cycling infrastructure in sensible ways in Britain, compared to implementations across Europe, where many have commented that the driver-cycling relationships have been more cordial
Agreed.

Where I have had excellent cycling in Europe, the traffic density has either been very low or the infrastructure for cyclists has been night and day better than the UK where it is an afterthought in many cases or not maintained. We generally don't use it here because it's rubbish.

In North Leeds, the new ELOR cycle and pedestrian path alongside the A64 is an example of doing it right. It encourages cyclists to use it and I use it frequently because I prefer it over the road. That's how it should be done.

In Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, the traffic densities are similar to the UK but they have invested in World-best cycling infrastructures that get cyclists off the roads cars are using. It works.

In the UK, there is a massive reluctance to pay what would be required to deliver that and so we are forced to share the same roads. It would benefit motorists as much as cyclists for the infrastructure to be installed and installed properly.

Edit to add: I was cycling in Slovakia last month. I was gobsmacked. A very poor country and around Zilina, (Peter Sagan's territory, for those who know of him) I went on to a cycle path that went on for over 50km in that small region between villages alone. Pristine and awesome!


Edited by YorkshireStu on Friday 17th November 14:26

MarcelM6

568 posts

112 months

Friday 17th November 2023
quotequote all
cerb4.5lee said:
I remember doing my Cycling Proficiency Test back in the 1970's at first(primary) school, do they still do anything like that now?

I guess if they still do now...they'd just tell everyone to ride 2 abreast everywhere! hehe
Still being done, called Bikeability now - based on highway code so does teach 2 abreast where appropriate

https://www.bikeability.org.uk/

Julian Scott

3,500 posts

30 months

Friday 17th November 2023
quotequote all
PinkHouse said:
  1. The view that anything seen as pro-cycling is automatically anti-car
I'm not sure, I don't know any 'proper' cyclist who aren't also drivers, and most of them car enthusiasts. I also don't know any cyclist that are specifically ant-car ranters.

For me the issue is the 'all cyclist are wkers' and the irrational hatred for all cyclists, as even usually mild mannered posters on here have demonstrated.


Antony Moxey

8,746 posts

225 months

Friday 17th November 2023
quotequote all
Julian Scott said:
PinkHouse said:
  1. The view that anything seen as pro-cycling is automatically anti-car
I'm not sure, I don't know any 'proper' cyclist who aren't also drivers, and most of them car enthusiasts. I also don't know any cyclist that are specifically ant-car ranters.

For me the issue is the 'all cyclist are wkers' and the irrational hatred for all cyclists, as even usually mild mannered posters on here have demonstrated.
I think they mean in general rather than PH-specific, for instance if the government announces more cycle lanes or cycling priorities it’s always viewed in the media from an anti motorist slant. The newspapers in particular like to stoke up anti this and anti that rather than pro this or pro that.

However, your point on the irrational hatred of cyclists is one I share, and one that’s often spouted on here. And like you say, the majority of PH cyclists are probably keen motorists too.

mooseracer

2,084 posts

176 months

Saturday 18th November 2023
quotequote all
YorkshireStu said:
Once I’m in the countryside it’s generally fine for me too. Getting there doesn’t take long but every week there will be a car doing something daft - yesterday a driver did a u-turn (having looked right at me) and came within 10cm or so.
This my point. 10cm! I can literally only remember one occasion in the last 15 years where a motorist has got that close to me, and that was a foreign registered lorry

As I said in my original post, I feel very lucky that I don't encounter the sort of behaviour a lot do.

And again, I really hope I'm not tempting fate by trying to add some balance.

YorkshireStu

4,418 posts

206 months

Saturday 18th November 2023
quotequote all
mooseracer said:
This my point. 10cm! I can literally only remember one occasion in the last 15 years where a motorist has got that close to me, and that was a foreign registered lorry

As I said in my original post, I feel very lucky that I don't encounter the sort of behaviour a lot do.

And again, I really hope I'm not tempting fate by trying to add some balance.
Yesterday a grey van pulled out from a side street in front of me - young driver, looked at me, decided to go anyway. I had to brake and swerve into the road he was exiting from a bit to avoid crashing into him.

Earlier I was coming around a blind corner to see a car parked on the double yellow halfway around - owner had obvs popped into the shop. The car is an obstacle for other cars too but for a cyclist trying to stay close to the kerb, dangerous.

Both incidents things I don't usually think too much about, writing them off as a part of cycling, but this thread had me thinking while riding about just how bad some drivers are.

Thing is, it's fine looking for balance but I don't know a single cyclist personally who doesn't encounter this type of thing every week.

mooseracer

2,084 posts

176 months

Saturday 18th November 2023
quotequote all
Well, you've "met" one now! >12000km so far this year and I've not had to brake to avoid a car/van (to take your recent example).

I don't not believe people, it just staggers me how bad most have it.

YorkshireStu

4,418 posts

206 months

Saturday 18th November 2023
quotequote all
mooseracer said:
Well, you've "met" one now! >12000km so far this year and I've not had to brake to avoid a car/van (to take your recent example).

I don't not believe people, it just staggers me how bad most have it.
That's how it is for me when I'm cycling in Portugal. smile

ZetecTDCI

128 posts

49 months

Saturday 18th November 2023
quotequote all
mooseracer said:
Well, you've "met" one now! >12000km so far this year and I've not had to brake to avoid a car/van (to take your recent example).

I don't not believe people, it just staggers me how bad most have it.
Similar here. Same mileage with very very few incidents.
Some people do very much have it worse from accounts I’ve read but I suspect I have a higher tolerance of mistakes/ unawareness in others than many other cyclists.
Not reacting to them is key for my mental state otherwise it would be in my head for ages and I’d end up questioning whether I ought to ride !

YorkshireStu

4,418 posts

206 months

Saturday 18th November 2023
quotequote all
ZetecTDCI said:
Similar here. Same mileage with very very few incidents.
Some people do very much have it worse from accounts I’ve read but I suspect I have a higher tolerance of mistakes/ unawareness in others than many other cyclists.
Not reacting to them is key for my mental state otherwise it would be in my head for ages and I’d end up questioning whether I ought to ride !
This is absolutely true - if it wasn't for a thread like this I wouldn't even be thinking about it. It's only when taking part in the discussion that I start counting the incidents that are being talked about and paying more attention to them.

Generally, I just go out and ignore the stuff discussed here. I think what this thread highlights though, is that this stuff does happen to many cyclists and maybe we shouldn't just be accepting it as 'normal'. For example, I can tolerate much closer passes than most and not think anything of them.

I think also in my case, 'normal' is coloured by what I have experienced in other countries which kinda makes my experiences here this year, 'abnormal' to what we should be expecting and accepting.

ZetecTDCI

128 posts

49 months

Saturday 18th November 2023
quotequote all
Yep. Pretty much every time abroad, my view of normal gets reset

julianm

1,585 posts

207 months

Saturday 18th November 2023
quotequote all
Stu - wonder if you know the B6161 Leathley Lane / Otley Road which takes you from over the river at Pool towards Beckwithshaw?
Driving south on it today, murky weather, big puddles & came across 2 female cyclists climbing a lot faster than I could have.
This thread came to mind as on this twist & turn, double white line all the way to the top of the bank section they stayed 2 abreast & well out to boot.
I ended up with 6 cars behind me as line of sight was poor & chance to pass was nil.

Eventually bloke behind me gives me the flashes, but know I'll need to wait even longer & eventually on a slightly wider bend got past giving the ladies plenty of room.

They are then carved up by a succession of drivers as I pulled away.
Maybe they thought staying abreast would prevent any risky overtakes with oncoming traffic, but it genuinely went on for a long time & possibly made it even riskier for them if I hadn't been first in the tailback.
They looked experienced & competant riders to me.
I was glad to get out of the situation, but would do the same again.

YorkshireStu

4,418 posts

206 months

Saturday 18th November 2023
quotequote all
julianm said:
Stu - wonder if you know the B6161 Leathley Lane / Otley Road which takes you from over the river at Pool towards Beckwithshaw?
Driving south on it today, murky weather, big puddles & came across 2 female cyclists climbing a lot faster than I could have.
This thread came to mind as on this twist & turn, double white line all the way to the top of the bank section they stayed 2 abreast & well out to boot.
I ended up with 6 cars behind me as line of sight was poor & chance to pass was nil.

Eventually bloke behind me gives me the flashes, but know I'll need to wait even longer & eventually on a slightly wider bend got past giving the ladies plenty of room.

They are then carved up by a succession of drivers as I pulled away.
Maybe they thought staying abreast would prevent any risky overtakes with oncoming traffic, but it genuinely went on for a long time & possibly made it even riskier for them if I hadn't been first in the tailback.
They looked experienced & competant riders to me.
I was glad to get out of the situation, but would do the same again.
Yes, I do and those ladies should have paid attention to the traffic building up behind them and, in my humble opinion, if they can see vehicles are struggling due to traffic density, go single file and allow slightly closer passes to get the cars through. The cars have seen them. The speed is controlled because they have seen them and so won't go wizzing past too quickly and will take care.

Why risk an irate impatient driver taking a risk that might end badly?

That's just me though and what I would have done. I don't like cars building up behind me - not one. I actively look to assist with vehicles overtaking and wave cars past me often.

It's one of those tough ones, they weren't doing anything wrong per se in terms of what they can do but weren't helping on a twisty bit either.

That said! I wasn't there - the puddles and kerb could have been dangerous to ride in, especially when you cannot see the depth of the potholes. So I kinda understand their reasoning, as one of them crashing while a car overtakes is potentially more dangerous.



julianm

1,585 posts

207 months

Saturday 18th November 2023
quotequote all
They must have pedalled through a good 6 inches in one of the dips about 1/2 mile before I caught them - completely across the road!

More rain tomorrow....

B.Eccelerock

7 posts

28 months

Monday 20th November 2023
quotequote all
The roads of Dorset seem to be going downhill this year, suffering lots of close passes as it gets darker. My road positioning in this one wasn't great, attempting to miss potholes and sunken drains in the road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnkZHOBzr-0


budgie smuggler

5,525 posts

165 months

Monday 20th November 2023
quotequote all
B.Eccelerock said:
The roads of Dorset seem to be going downhill this year, suffering lots of close passes as it gets darker. My road positioning in this one wasn't great, attempting to miss potholes and sunken drains in the road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnkZHOBzr-0
Jeez, bet that had the old balloon knot puckering a bit! eek

Solocle

3,630 posts

90 months

Monday 20th November 2023
quotequote all
B.Eccelerock said:
The roads of Dorset seem to be going downhill this year, suffering lots of close passes as it gets darker. My road positioning in this one wasn't great, attempting to miss potholes and sunken drains in the road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnkZHOBzr-0
Yeesh, 3 Legged Cross. Not the most pleasant road in the world, but it's not a particularly bad one either. Generally speaking it's that way or the A31.

thepritch

1,036 posts

171 months

Monday 20th November 2023
quotequote all
B.Eccelerock said:
The roads of Dorset seem to be going downhill this year, suffering lots of close passes as it gets darker. My road positioning in this one wasn't great, attempting to miss potholes and sunken drains in the road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnkZHOBzr-0
As we’ve seen on this thread some car drivers just don’t get it and demand we respect them? I was greeted by a message on FB this morning on my old clubs page - a rider was out last week, broad daylight, but was hit and the car driver legged it. Cyclist is badly hurt and laid up in hospital. Where’s the respect or care from drivers to actually at least then stop and check the riders ok?

Harry H

3,519 posts

162 months

Monday 20th November 2023
quotequote all
YorkshireStu said:
Yes, I do and those ladies should have paid attention to the traffic building up behind them and, in my humble opinion, if they can see vehicles are struggling due to traffic density, go single file and allow slightly closer passes to get the cars through. The cars have seen them. The speed is controlled because they have seen them and so won't go wizzing past too quickly and will take care.

Why risk an irate impatient driver taking a risk that might end badly?

That's just me though and what I would have done. I don't like cars building up behind me - not one. I actively look to assist with vehicles overtaking and wave cars past me often.

It's one of those tough ones, they weren't doing anything wrong per se in terms of what they can do but weren't helping on a twisty bit either.

That said! I wasn't there - the puddles and kerb could have been dangerous to ride in, especially when you cannot see the depth of the potholes. So I kinda understand their reasoning, as one of them crashing while a car overtakes is potentially more dangerous.
Now that surprised me. Earlier in the thread you came across as a right jobs worth numpty. All Holier Than Thou.

And there you go showing us all what a throughly sensible human being you are. Someone I would have no need to toot at as I passed.smile