Will we ever see 4.0 quarter miles?
Discussion
When I was a teenager going to watch the drag racing at Blackbushe Airport, six second quarters were rare but achievable. Watching the current US racing on TV - 4.5secs seems like a current 'watershed'. With the limitations of TF/FC engines etc do you think we will ever see 4.0sec or 3.something quarters, after all it's only half a second??
If you throw the current rule book out of the window, I see no reason why the heavy hitters in the NHRA cant run into the 4.30's at the very least.
You'd need some fundamental changes, but these would maximise what you already have, rather than using brand new un-tested parts. The only new addition I'd make would be to ask MSD for a couple of their 60 amp mags....even if they've been shelved from development?! Rear end ratio would be changed, blower swapped for a screw item, aero bits maximised, weight optimised, and ground effects added where needed. Nitro percentage would be safe at upto 95% or there abouts. The tyres will struggle though, the first 330ft would have a big say in the result of the run - the current TF tyres can hold what's given to them at the moment, barely.
The finals last year, where the US Army raised the bar again, in qualifying, AJ was going all out for a 4.30 (the conditions were damn near perfect, and he had a perfect handle on the tuneup). I'm semi expecting a very low 4.40 by the end of 2007, most likely from the Army team. A more likely new record IMO though, would be a 4.50 from a Funny Car - and there's enough possible teams capable of huge runs: Force, Hight, Ashley, Beckman, and Scelzi (he'll want to leave a lasting impression I imagine).
To run 4.0's....not with current technology - you run on the ragged edge to get into the 40's as it is. If you went a built a car outside of the rulebook, who knows, nobody has tried it yet. Maybe one day, but whilst a 4.40 is the magic number at present, there's little point taking risks and going into unknown territory.
You'd need some fundamental changes, but these would maximise what you already have, rather than using brand new un-tested parts. The only new addition I'd make would be to ask MSD for a couple of their 60 amp mags....even if they've been shelved from development?! Rear end ratio would be changed, blower swapped for a screw item, aero bits maximised, weight optimised, and ground effects added where needed. Nitro percentage would be safe at upto 95% or there abouts. The tyres will struggle though, the first 330ft would have a big say in the result of the run - the current TF tyres can hold what's given to them at the moment, barely.
The finals last year, where the US Army raised the bar again, in qualifying, AJ was going all out for a 4.30 (the conditions were damn near perfect, and he had a perfect handle on the tuneup). I'm semi expecting a very low 4.40 by the end of 2007, most likely from the Army team. A more likely new record IMO though, would be a 4.50 from a Funny Car - and there's enough possible teams capable of huge runs: Force, Hight, Ashley, Beckman, and Scelzi (he'll want to leave a lasting impression I imagine).
To run 4.0's....not with current technology - you run on the ragged edge to get into the 40's as it is. If you went a built a car outside of the rulebook, who knows, nobody has tried it yet. Maybe one day, but whilst a 4.40 is the magic number at present, there's little point taking risks and going into unknown territory.
l contacted my American drag racing friends and here's there comments:
We probably would have seen them by now if not for all the restrictions.
Only a 1/2 sec. Do you realize how long it takes to get even a 1/10th faster?
lf the sanctioning bodies would remove the restrictions we'd have seen 3's several years ago. The technology is here with maybe the exception of tyres.
lf it wasn't for the rules we would have seen 4.20's @ 350 by now
With the right conditions, if the NHRA bumps the nitro % to 90, and Alan Johnson is having a good day, you might see a top fueler go into the 4.30's in a few years.
We probably would have seen them by now if not for all the restrictions.
Only a 1/2 sec. Do you realize how long it takes to get even a 1/10th faster?
lf the sanctioning bodies would remove the restrictions we'd have seen 3's several years ago. The technology is here with maybe the exception of tyres.
lf it wasn't for the rules we would have seen 4.20's @ 350 by now
With the right conditions, if the NHRA bumps the nitro % to 90, and Alan Johnson is having a good day, you might see a top fueler go into the 4.30's in a few years.
cerbagriff said:
"Maybe one day, but whilst a 4.40 is the magic number at present, there's little point taking risks and going into unknown territory."
Hmmm. 4.0sec - the final frontiere - to bodly go where no man (or woman) has gone before!
Erm, a certain Mr Miller springs to mind here! Hmmm. 4.0sec - the final frontiere - to bodly go where no man (or woman) has gone before!
BB-Q said:
cerbagriff said:
"Maybe one day, but whilst a 4.40 is the magic number at present, there's little point taking risks and going into unknown territory."
Hmmm. 4.0sec - the final frontiere - to bodly go where no man (or woman) has gone before!
Erm, a certain Mr Miller springs to mind here! Hmmm. 4.0sec - the final frontiere - to bodly go where no man (or woman) has gone before!
Oh well, maybe one day. It would be so good to see someone just build a car, sod the regulations, and show up the other 'limited' racing cars on demo runs, a bit like the jet racers. I know the money involved would be scary-horrific, and why build it if it can't compete, BUT if some one did it, My oh My what a car it might be!!
cerbagriff said:
Oh well, maybe one day. It would be so good to see someone just build a car, sod the regulations, and show up the other 'limited' racing cars on demo runs, a bit like the jet racers. I know the money involved would be scary-horrific, and why build it if it can't compete, BUT if some one did it, My oh My what a car it might be!!
It'd be tempting - but at present I'd think it more likely for somebody to go the Fuel Altered route, running outside the rulebook, with a current spec (or even mid 90's) Funny Car chassis and drivetrain, but with a T-body......or full Topo....(decisions, decisions)I've said too much already
The NHRA essentially has a very difficult job. It has to police the sport, by stopping costs getting silly, and speeds getting out of hand, without overstepping the mark so much that the fanbase and followers of the sport get bored.
The tyre issue - from my understanding, you'd have to start from scratch with it. The current tyres (the compound which was brought in just over a year ago), are used because they keep their shape better at speed (with less of the vertical flat siding you see in top end pics). Traction is still an issue, the heavy hitters are always running on the ragged edge of what the tyre will put up with. AJ had issues with getting his tuneup to work, as with when chassis rears needed to be heat treated. He was quite vocal about the fact that "this doesn't work with my tuneup". It goes to show that a change of parts here or there, can influence things greatly.
A change of gearing and we'd have seen 345mph by now IMO. But where do you draw the line? Health and Safety has a place too, remember that the tracks were designed and built when cars weren't running 4.40's and 335mph. Yes, some of the tracks cope fine (with extremely vast shutdown areas), but it's something to bear in mind that if the NHRA ever relaxed the rules, you may have to look at redeveloping facilities to cater for them. Cars are running getting towards half the speed of sound through the top end - and spectators get very close to the action. You wont see that at Bonneville (I assume not at least, but I haven't been!).
It may 'only' be half a second on paper, but what goes through the car in order to eek out more performance than it already has, will be absolute torture on a current car. ESPN footage for the NHRA is top notch, see how much chassis flex and movement goes on in the average TF qualifying pass. If you were to add another 20mph to that with a current spec car, you'd have big stability issues IMO.
There probably wont be any big developments in Top Fuel for the next few years - the rules are such that they pretty much tell you what parts you can use, without telling you (to keep parity I guess). Unfortunately, there's not many Garlits type people left, the sort that would try something just because it's different, or just because it may work better. The monostruts will possibly come in soon - that's a safety thing, and a slight aero aid, but it wont affect performance in a huge way, from what we've seen in testing at least.
This is starting to waffle a bit, but in short - I think we've reached the point where technology is in place to amaze people, and the next few years will be about learning how best to use it, rather than try and leap frog it and go onto develop something else.
The tyre issue - from my understanding, you'd have to start from scratch with it. The current tyres (the compound which was brought in just over a year ago), are used because they keep their shape better at speed (with less of the vertical flat siding you see in top end pics). Traction is still an issue, the heavy hitters are always running on the ragged edge of what the tyre will put up with. AJ had issues with getting his tuneup to work, as with when chassis rears needed to be heat treated. He was quite vocal about the fact that "this doesn't work with my tuneup". It goes to show that a change of parts here or there, can influence things greatly.
A change of gearing and we'd have seen 345mph by now IMO. But where do you draw the line? Health and Safety has a place too, remember that the tracks were designed and built when cars weren't running 4.40's and 335mph. Yes, some of the tracks cope fine (with extremely vast shutdown areas), but it's something to bear in mind that if the NHRA ever relaxed the rules, you may have to look at redeveloping facilities to cater for them. Cars are running getting towards half the speed of sound through the top end - and spectators get very close to the action. You wont see that at Bonneville (I assume not at least, but I haven't been!).
It may 'only' be half a second on paper, but what goes through the car in order to eek out more performance than it already has, will be absolute torture on a current car. ESPN footage for the NHRA is top notch, see how much chassis flex and movement goes on in the average TF qualifying pass. If you were to add another 20mph to that with a current spec car, you'd have big stability issues IMO.
There probably wont be any big developments in Top Fuel for the next few years - the rules are such that they pretty much tell you what parts you can use, without telling you (to keep parity I guess). Unfortunately, there's not many Garlits type people left, the sort that would try something just because it's different, or just because it may work better. The monostruts will possibly come in soon - that's a safety thing, and a slight aero aid, but it wont affect performance in a huge way, from what we've seen in testing at least.
This is starting to waffle a bit, but in short - I think we've reached the point where technology is in place to amaze people, and the next few years will be about learning how best to use it, rather than try and leap frog it and go onto develop something else.
Edited by Nitro-besty on Sunday 19th August 10:20
topfueldrags said:
how can safety be measured to within half a second?
Well, at 330 mph you go 81 yards in half a second. That's Santa Pod's shutdown area in less than five seconds or Mantorp Park's shutdown area in about two and a half seconds.Having said that Fuel motors brake the cars very effectively, the 'chutes take off a lot of speed, and Fuel cars have carbon fibre brakes which can do the job. I saw Joe Amato stop from 320 mph without chutes at Pomona, and Pomona's shutdown area is half the length of the Pod's.
BB-Q said:
Are the chutes seriously effective then? Obviously Ive never been lucky enough to own a car that requires them and TV footage just can't show what is probably extreme deceleration.
They can normally knock 100mph of the speed when you're going 300+, instantly, which is useful as you travel quite a big distance at that speed. The other benefit, which is more so in top fuel and nostalgia top fuel - is that you have no front brakes - so the brake lever is useless at that speed (it'll simply make the car bunnyhop - which if you're not travelling in a straightish line, will result in the very best Ari Vatanen impression).As Tog mentioned, the carbon brakes are astounding, many times the likes of Doug Kalitta and co have got it stopped from 330mph when the chute lever's have failed, or been too caught up steering to be able to reach them - and being an ex dirt racer, Mr. Kalitta is quite adept when he hits the sand at the other end too lol...
BB-Q said:
Are the chutes seriously effective then?
I took a ride in Gordon Appleton's Pro Mod in his Nitrous days. We ran 6.90/201; when the two chutes opened there was a muffled bang and the hit was so hard that I thought we'd run into something. There were two distinct phases, the chute hit and sudden deceleration and then after a second or two some vibration. At the time I told Gordon that it felt like we'd hit a brick wall and then gone over the rubble. Gordon said that he was addicted to the feeling of the chutes opening and I can understand that.
Paula Marshall wasn't so lucky on her run with Gordon, the 'chutes didn't open and he did a handbrake turn at the end of the track and I believe slid sideways into the field.
Amazing, isn't it- I've always said drag racing is not a televison friendly sport and that proves it.
As soon as my son is old enough he will be coming with me to the strip to experience the thrills- I want him to be a born and bred fan and possibly racer(aprt form a trip to the Speedfreaks ball a few years ago I've not been for a long, long time).
I'll not be able to afford to race but will hopefully be a regular RWYBer, given that Blackpool is a bloody long way forom the 'pod.
Good times ahead, methinks.
As soon as my son is old enough he will be coming with me to the strip to experience the thrills- I want him to be a born and bred fan and possibly racer(aprt form a trip to the Speedfreaks ball a few years ago I've not been for a long, long time).
I'll not be able to afford to race but will hopefully be a regular RWYBer, given that Blackpool is a bloody long way forom the 'pod.
Good times ahead, methinks.
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