Job Agencies and "Ghost" Jobs
Discussion
I have the distinct pleasure of looking for another role at the moment due to being out of work at the end of this week.
I have been having a ‘surf’ and looking at industry specific jobsites (accountancy) and there seems to be a few things around – not loads, but enough to fire off the odd application.
Saw one on Friday afternoon that was of interest and applied via the web. Called up today to be told “riiiiiight,….ok, * short pause * we’ve actually short listed for that role already and wont be considering any more CV’s at this stage, let me emphasize at this stage”
“However, there is another role I’d like to talk to you about…..”
Doubtless, the job will be less money, its certainly in an industry I dont want to work in, less desirable organisation, worse location etc (speaking from experience here).
While I understand they might want to build a database of contacts, but really, do I want to be represented by someone with tactics like that? Do people fall for this?
I have been having a ‘surf’ and looking at industry specific jobsites (accountancy) and there seems to be a few things around – not loads, but enough to fire off the odd application.
Saw one on Friday afternoon that was of interest and applied via the web. Called up today to be told “riiiiiight,….ok, * short pause * we’ve actually short listed for that role already and wont be considering any more CV’s at this stage, let me emphasize at this stage”
“However, there is another role I’d like to talk to you about…..”
Doubtless, the job will be less money, its certainly in an industry I dont want to work in, less desirable organisation, worse location etc (speaking from experience here).
While I understand they might want to build a database of contacts, but really, do I want to be represented by someone with tactics like that? Do people fall for this?
After a succession of these, you will realise that Employment agencies, operate on the same fundamentals as Estate Agents - Get you in, Fob you off, send you useless mails for positions not remotely linked to your profession etc etc..
They try to build up their database of jobseekers, just in case a suitable position comes along for you..! That's all well and good - And - for your part, excellent news..
However, On several occasions an agency will ring or mail you about a suitable position, they request your CV and ask questions about your current status... The problem IS - You have already registered with them, possibly spoken to that person, have already applied for the job through one of their colleagues or its totally inappropriate.
Job hunting in the modern age is made up of Website trawls, applications, confirmation of application receipts.... Then invariably - Nothing. No follow up, no courtesy mails etc.. Ocasionally an agency will electronic respond with, 'If you have not heard from us within 7 days, I'm sorry you have been unsuccessful.'
So its just sit and wait...!
What you'll also find is.. Jobs are advertised by numerous agencies for the same position "Ghost Jobs" - Even if the client has a sole agreement with a single agency. The adverts normally appear more vague, without all the details.. If you apply through this add, they will send on your details to the acting agent - then try and negotiate a finders fee with them..! Its not a bad idea to ask them if they have a direct client/agency relationship.
Good luck in your search..
This might not the the practice of ALL agents, just my experiences over the last few months
They try to build up their database of jobseekers, just in case a suitable position comes along for you..! That's all well and good - And - for your part, excellent news..
However, On several occasions an agency will ring or mail you about a suitable position, they request your CV and ask questions about your current status... The problem IS - You have already registered with them, possibly spoken to that person, have already applied for the job through one of their colleagues or its totally inappropriate.
Job hunting in the modern age is made up of Website trawls, applications, confirmation of application receipts.... Then invariably - Nothing. No follow up, no courtesy mails etc.. Ocasionally an agency will electronic respond with, 'If you have not heard from us within 7 days, I'm sorry you have been unsuccessful.'
So its just sit and wait...!
What you'll also find is.. Jobs are advertised by numerous agencies for the same position "Ghost Jobs" - Even if the client has a sole agreement with a single agency. The adverts normally appear more vague, without all the details.. If you apply through this add, they will send on your details to the acting agent - then try and negotiate a finders fee with them..! Its not a bad idea to ask them if they have a direct client/agency relationship.
Good luck in your search..
This might not the the practice of ALL agents, just my experiences over the last few months
2 purposes
1) So they can get you on database and save on job websites own database search fees
2) So they can see who you work for/have worked for and cold call them to see if hiring. Will often ask who your line manager/team was or usual "I know them well, so was it mr x you werreerw orking under....." to get you to give a name for them to use
1) So they can get you on database and save on job websites own database search fees
2) So they can see who you work for/have worked for and cold call them to see if hiring. Will often ask who your line manager/team was or usual "I know them well, so was it mr x you werreerw orking under....." to get you to give a name for them to use
try being in IT - at the moment I'd say about 50% of the jobs people contact me about (even though I'm not looking) are essentially made up. I've lost count of the number of times someone has phoned me out of the blue about "a position you may be interested in" but "the company won't let me release details" so "so can you send me your updated CV & I'll put you forward, it's exactly what you do\are looking for" - why I'd want to apply for a role doing a job I don't know the details of, for a company I don't know the details or location of for a salary they can't disclose I have no idea!
Recruiters, mostly the scourge of the earth
I'd love to be able to bill them for my wasted time! The trouble is, in all that floatsom, there are a small number of good people presenting genuine opportunities.
Good luck with the search btw.
Recruiters, mostly the scourge of the earth
I'd love to be able to bill them for my wasted time! The trouble is, in all that floatsom, there are a small number of good people presenting genuine opportunities. Good luck with the search btw.
Might be worth trying Robert Half. I think they are one of the smaller agencies (certainly are in Edinburgh), but last time I was hunting they called me about 2 jobs, got interviewed for both and both were willing to make an offer.
Only thing was they bumped off a higher paying term contract without asking me first, but I did express a preference for a permanent role.
Still at the same place 5 years on, so I reckon they did a good job.
Best of luck with the hunt.
Only thing was they bumped off a higher paying term contract without asking me first, but I did express a preference for a permanent role.
Still at the same place 5 years on, so I reckon they did a good job.
Best of luck with the hunt.
Thanks for the comments fella.
I think going forward I'll be calling about roles, not submitting my CV.
Is it safe to say that the "we cant name the company" is generally nonsense? I would imagine it could be true, but it seems quite common and I'd have thought if you were confident in you brand, you'd want prospective employees to know who you were?
I think going forward I'll be calling about roles, not submitting my CV.
Is it safe to say that the "we cant name the company" is generally nonsense? I would imagine it could be true, but it seems quite common and I'd have thought if you were confident in you brand, you'd want prospective employees to know who you were?
Pork said:
Is it safe to say that the "we cant name the company" is generally nonsense?
In my experience, yes. They seem to be fishing for CVs.My best advice is that if they can't name the company
involved, then you can't name your hourly / daily rate.
I find that shuts up most of them. If they complain,
then explain that your rate depends on whether the company
is a household name or not.
Recruitment agencies: like used car salesmen and estate agencies,
good ones are very few.
I am currently trying to find another job in the IT industry.
One thing I get from quite quite often which highly suspicious is the following...
"So how are you finding the market?"
If you foolishly answer with anything other than a negative you get asked to name everywhere your cv has already been sent, this they claim is to prevent them duplicating any applications.......
Wouldn't suspect for one minute its so they can muscle in on clients that are obviously recruiting.
One thing I get from quite quite often which highly suspicious is the following...
"So how are you finding the market?"
If you foolishly answer with anything other than a negative you get asked to name everywhere your cv has already been sent, this they claim is to prevent them duplicating any applications.......
Wouldn't suspect for one minute its so they can muscle in on clients that are obviously recruiting. Erich Stahler said:
I am currently trying to find another job in the IT industry.
One thing I get from quite quite often which highly suspicious is the following...
"So how are you finding the market?"
If you foolishly answer with anything other than a negative you get asked to name everywhere your cv has already been sent, this they claim is to prevent them duplicating any applications....... Wouldn't suspect for one minute its so they can muscle in on clients that are obviously recruiting.
Thats easily argued by refusing to tell them.. just make up a couple of random companies if they go on about the duplication issue.One thing I get from quite quite often which highly suspicious is the following...
"So how are you finding the market?"
If you foolishly answer with anything other than a negative you get asked to name everywhere your cv has already been sent, this they claim is to prevent them duplicating any applications.......
Wouldn't suspect for one minute its so they can muscle in on clients that are obviously recruiting. Merritt said:
Erich Stahler said:
I am currently trying to find another job in the IT industry.
One thing I get from quite quite often which highly suspicious is the following...
"So how are you finding the market?"
If you foolishly answer with anything other than a negative you get asked to name everywhere your cv has already been sent, this they claim is to prevent them duplicating any applications....... Wouldn't suspect for one minute its so they can muscle in on clients that are obviously recruiting.
Thats easily argued by refusing to tell them.. just make up a couple of random companies if they go on about the duplication issue.One thing I get from quite quite often which highly suspicious is the following...
"So how are you finding the market?"
If you foolishly answer with anything other than a negative you get asked to name everywhere your cv has already been sent, this they claim is to prevent them duplicating any applications.......
Wouldn't suspect for one minute its so they can muscle in on clients that are obviously recruiting. Pork said:
Is it safe to say that the "we cant name the company" is generally nonsense?
I got told that about 7 years ago buddy. I too thought it was a load of s
t - but it turned out to be fair game and I've been there ever since.....I've got a job vacancy at the moment as it happens
As an ex recruitment consultant and now looking for a new role i find it very difficult to put up with all their crap and euphamisims associated with the task they do.
They are a 3rd party and have to shag the clients leg like an unwanted puppy dog looking for attention and will say anything just to please them.
most of them never wanted to be a recruitment consultant and like estate agents and car sales people they end up there which is not really good, would you go to a surgeon that just ending up in that position......i think not.
If you want to be proactive my advice would be to contact the people or company direct.
If these telephone monkeys at rec agencies can get a name surely a clever and dynamic professional can do the same.
Apply direct to the area you specialise in eg. the head of the department of engineering and get a name and email address save the company the finders fee and get to speak to the person direct.
Ps the ghost job posting is illegal as it has links with the data protection act ...not using the information supply for the use it was given for!!!!!!
Happy job hunting
They are a 3rd party and have to shag the clients leg like an unwanted puppy dog looking for attention and will say anything just to please them.
most of them never wanted to be a recruitment consultant and like estate agents and car sales people they end up there which is not really good, would you go to a surgeon that just ending up in that position......i think not.
If you want to be proactive my advice would be to contact the people or company direct.
If these telephone monkeys at rec agencies can get a name surely a clever and dynamic professional can do the same.
Apply direct to the area you specialise in eg. the head of the department of engineering and get a name and email address save the company the finders fee and get to speak to the person direct.
Ps the ghost job posting is illegal as it has links with the data protection act ...not using the information supply for the use it was given for!!!!!!
Happy job hunting
Coming from a rec con I can see you point of view, and agree with the consensus of the thread about most of the stuff that goes on.
Re: not be able to name companies, in my experience this is largly to stop candidates spilling to other agencies who will then either make up candidates/undercut us etc etc. Otherwise it would be becasue the client genuinely don't want their name published, I do deal with more senior business though, so it may vary.
The problem you have about being stuborn re rate etc is that there is an ubundance of candidates in the marketplace and the agent may just go with someone else who (due to desperatly needing work) is giving them all the info they need.
However there is another side of the coin, and again for the more senior business, a consultant may want to generate a database of candidates, and to do this may need to 'lure' candidates. But the intention will then to specifically target clients with the candidates details, rather than general marketing, which may lead to the consultant marketing a job on that is specially what the candidate is looking for.
A good consultant should be able to find a good candidate a job, regardless if they actually have any live jobs that moment in time.
Re: not be able to name companies, in my experience this is largly to stop candidates spilling to other agencies who will then either make up candidates/undercut us etc etc. Otherwise it would be becasue the client genuinely don't want their name published, I do deal with more senior business though, so it may vary.
The problem you have about being stuborn re rate etc is that there is an ubundance of candidates in the marketplace and the agent may just go with someone else who (due to desperatly needing work) is giving them all the info they need.
However there is another side of the coin, and again for the more senior business, a consultant may want to generate a database of candidates, and to do this may need to 'lure' candidates. But the intention will then to specifically target clients with the candidates details, rather than general marketing, which may lead to the consultant marketing a job on that is specially what the candidate is looking for.
A good consultant should be able to find a good candidate a job, regardless if they actually have any live jobs that moment in time.
Interesting posts chaps.
I've actually found a job through a agent that I think is pretty good. They screwed me on the rate, big time, but I'd rather get 60% of what I think I'm worth and keep working than sit at home watching Jeremy Kyle.
The down side (for the agent) is that as they screwed me so much on the rate, and its only a temp role, I can honestly say for the first time in a very long time, I'm not feeling particularly obliged to stay on and am actively looking for a perm role (they know this).
I've actually found a job through a agent that I think is pretty good. They screwed me on the rate, big time, but I'd rather get 60% of what I think I'm worth and keep working than sit at home watching Jeremy Kyle.
The down side (for the agent) is that as they screwed me so much on the rate, and its only a temp role, I can honestly say for the first time in a very long time, I'm not feeling particularly obliged to stay on and am actively looking for a perm role (they know this).
V8mate said:
What fields/professions do you recruit for Jakestar?
Im actually in the middle of moving to London (this monday!) to start a new role. In my previous role I was doing contract finance recruitment. I will now be doing senior contract and perm recruitment for the IT and Finance sectors, and abit of headhunting with a couple of retained clients, exciting new role for me
Pork said:
Interesting posts chaps.
I've actually found a job through a agent that I think is pretty good. They screwed me on the rate, big time, but I'd rather get 60% of what I think I'm worth and keep working than sit at home watching Jeremy Kyle.
The down side (for the agent) is that as they screwed me so much on the rate, and its only a temp role, I can honestly say for the first time in a very long time, I'm not feeling particularly obliged to stay on and am actively looking for a perm role (they know this).
Fair point there, but tbh the consultant can't be that good as I'd be putting in a loyality bonus to ensure you completed the assignment!!I've actually found a job through a agent that I think is pretty good. They screwed me on the rate, big time, but I'd rather get 60% of what I think I'm worth and keep working than sit at home watching Jeremy Kyle.
The down side (for the agent) is that as they screwed me so much on the rate, and its only a temp role, I can honestly say for the first time in a very long time, I'm not feeling particularly obliged to stay on and am actively looking for a perm role (they know this).
My advice, start the contract, do a good job (like im sure you would anyway), leave it 2 weeks (client has reported back to consultant that you are doing really well etc) then tell the consultant that you have been offered another contract role or perm role more in keeping with your expectations.
I bet you after some pausing, 'asking his manager' etc etc they will not want to loose the business, so will up your rate (you will need to be firm)
Jakestar said:
My advice, start the contract, do a good job (like im sure you would anyway), leave it 2 weeks (client has reported back to consultant that you are doing really well etc) then tell the consultant that you have been offered another contract role or perm role more in keeping with your expectations.
I bet you after some pausing, 'asking his manager' etc etc they will not want to loose the business, so will up your rate (you will need to be firm)
Excelent! I bet you after some pausing, 'asking his manager' etc etc they will not want to loose the business, so will up your rate (you will need to be firm)
I love that idea However, its not really my style, I'm more of the opinion that if I'm prepared to work for it, thats my fault/choice (delete as appropiate
). I'd agree though, I'm surprised the agent didnt put a completion bonus on the contract. Perhaps he confident that "the market is quiet" so I wont look for/get something else any time soon.
As an owner of a recruitment agency it pains me to read the references to being like estate agents in the '80's but sadly it's true. The majority of recruitment consultants I interview from "the competition" are trained and targetted to use these tactics. I can guarantee that if we advertise a contract role we will be called by another agent pretending to be a candidate asking who our client is. It's tarnished the whole industry which is a shame, as there are some of us who still take pride in our job and some gratification in finding a person their ideal role.
We are fortunate in that we are either the sole agents, or one of 3 agents for the majority of our clients so we can give out our clients name and sell the benefits of working for that organisation. If you represent some top name clients you want to let people know as you want them to prioritise your role over the "ones with no name!"
On contract roles there's no way we would give the name of the client until interview stage, just incase it's a fake candidate and word get's out to other agencies. As a candidate I can appreciate that this is less than ideal and you would naturally think of other motives. I really don't know how you would spot the good agencies from all the bad ones, unfortunately I guess it's trial and error and a lot of the national agents reputations are fairly common knowledge already.
Regarding agencies screwing you on rates - they may well have done, but it's more likely that the client is the one pushing the rate down. I was recently tasked with finding a .Net Developer with 5 years experience for £250/day!!! Suffice to say we did and both the contractor and I took a much lower rate than we normally would. In that situation I told the contractor my margin so he knew he wasn't the only one feeling the pain. To be fair, the client's business has slowed and they couldn't afford a higher rate and it was our decision to take the business.
The only good thing about this recession is that poor agencies will go out of business very soon as they don't have established relationships. Hopefully, the companies that survive will have proven that they are pretty good at what they do and the industry will salvage what reputation it has left.
I can't help you with the Accoutancy job I'm afraid but drop me a line and I will give you the name of someone that is good.
Good luck!
We are fortunate in that we are either the sole agents, or one of 3 agents for the majority of our clients so we can give out our clients name and sell the benefits of working for that organisation. If you represent some top name clients you want to let people know as you want them to prioritise your role over the "ones with no name!"
On contract roles there's no way we would give the name of the client until interview stage, just incase it's a fake candidate and word get's out to other agencies. As a candidate I can appreciate that this is less than ideal and you would naturally think of other motives. I really don't know how you would spot the good agencies from all the bad ones, unfortunately I guess it's trial and error and a lot of the national agents reputations are fairly common knowledge already.
Regarding agencies screwing you on rates - they may well have done, but it's more likely that the client is the one pushing the rate down. I was recently tasked with finding a .Net Developer with 5 years experience for £250/day!!! Suffice to say we did and both the contractor and I took a much lower rate than we normally would. In that situation I told the contractor my margin so he knew he wasn't the only one feeling the pain. To be fair, the client's business has slowed and they couldn't afford a higher rate and it was our decision to take the business.
The only good thing about this recession is that poor agencies will go out of business very soon as they don't have established relationships. Hopefully, the companies that survive will have proven that they are pretty good at what they do and the industry will salvage what reputation it has left.
I can't help you with the Accoutancy job I'm afraid but drop me a line and I will give you the name of someone that is good.
Good luck!
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