Job Hunting as a Graduate - My Experiences
Discussion
Have read some interesting topics in this and the business thread recently and the difficulties people are facing so I thought that I would share my experiences of the effects that the economic goings on has had on the job market from my point of view, more specifically as that of a graduate.
I have an Upper Second Class Honours degree in Business Management from a decent university. I also chose to do a work placement at a large corporate company where I was involved in a lot of projects covering a diverse range of areas – including client management, statistical analysis and reporting and many others including working with directors one day and factory type workers the next. I also possess business acumen and get on well with people. As a result I have a relatively decent CV and good and relevant experience meaning that I have had some luck with job applications. I have had some luck in the sense that I got to the final stage of 4 different graduate schemes, out of the 6 that I applied for – 1 has been postponed for a year, 1 I have been told I have passed the assessment centre and am awaiting confirmation of a place, 1 was on the day of my last exam and so I could not go and another, the one I truly desired I fell down at the last hurdle. I have also applied to some stand alone jobs with some success losing out to people with more experience in both occasions at the final stage.
I understand that so far this sounds like the worst ‘I am incredibly egotistical’ thread ever but I am trying to build a picture of someone who isn’t a complete wet, no experienced, wet behind the ears type graduate!
What I have noticed/ deduced from watching the job market over the last couple of months is that for every job, which have reduced since Easter time, there are a lot of applicants obviously increasing the odds. Not only this but that people are often applying to jobs that one would think are beneath the qualifications and experience that they hold – meaning that graduates applying for jobs can be competing with people far more experienced and versed in that industry or role. Clearly the experienced candidate is less of a risk and going to be a better candidate mostly so this makes it more difficult straight away.
On top of this some roles advertised are merely fronts advertised by recruitment consultancies to get high calibre applicants to sign up to that agency, so that when things pick up they have a backlog of people on the books that they can place quickly, earning a shed-load of commission in the process. I have had this confirmed to me by one recruitment consultant. This is highly frustrating when you travel into central London after 2 hours on the train to realise the job you are being put forward for doesn’t exist! It was even mentioned to me, though I have not had this confirmed, that some companies are advertising jobs through recruitment companies merely to keep the recruitment company busy if they have a contract with them or for HR to window shop/have something to do.
As I’m sure you can imagine the turmoil in the market has had a huge impact on the graduate employment market, the government has advised graduates to work abroad or ‘volunteer’ in unofficial surveys over a third of bosses said they wouldn’t be taking on graduates and so on.
For me the turmoil comes mostly out of frustration of not being able to get stuck into my career and to start making inroads and start making money. I also know of many friends that have had to massively change plans and industries and settle for jobs they were not envisioning doing – after 3 or 4 years of work it is quite demoralising.
I personally have a long held desire to get into financial services in the City and am willing to try anything from selling, wealth management, stock broking, investments, banking etc etc etc. However this seems to be an area greatly affected because of how things are and as a whole unqualified or inexperienced in a certain area candidates are seldom getting a look in and there are few jobs advertised for graduates in any place that I have seen. As a result I have been looking at getting to the top in the more usual graduate schemes in industries such as by doing CIMA but whilst I would earn fairly good money it is a long investment time wise and part of me fears I would be frustrated by not doing something I have wanted to do since high school. I have two desires in my life, one revolves around cars, the other is to make it and be successful. As such I am currently weighing up whether to turn down the grad scheme and concentrating on getting that job in the city or on getting a similar job elsewhere or in putting everything into the grad scheme for a few years and see how far I can go – a bloody difficult decision to make!
It’s a difficult time and deep down I am thankful that I have no children or mortgages to have to worry about like many people on PH that have lost their jobs. I just thought I’d open my experiences up to discussion to allow for a picture of experiences at every level of the market and experiences.
I hope that people find this interesting! Any advice or thoughts I'd gladly listen to and take on board
P.S Anyone want to give me a job?
I have an Upper Second Class Honours degree in Business Management from a decent university. I also chose to do a work placement at a large corporate company where I was involved in a lot of projects covering a diverse range of areas – including client management, statistical analysis and reporting and many others including working with directors one day and factory type workers the next. I also possess business acumen and get on well with people. As a result I have a relatively decent CV and good and relevant experience meaning that I have had some luck with job applications. I have had some luck in the sense that I got to the final stage of 4 different graduate schemes, out of the 6 that I applied for – 1 has been postponed for a year, 1 I have been told I have passed the assessment centre and am awaiting confirmation of a place, 1 was on the day of my last exam and so I could not go and another, the one I truly desired I fell down at the last hurdle. I have also applied to some stand alone jobs with some success losing out to people with more experience in both occasions at the final stage.
I understand that so far this sounds like the worst ‘I am incredibly egotistical’ thread ever but I am trying to build a picture of someone who isn’t a complete wet, no experienced, wet behind the ears type graduate!
What I have noticed/ deduced from watching the job market over the last couple of months is that for every job, which have reduced since Easter time, there are a lot of applicants obviously increasing the odds. Not only this but that people are often applying to jobs that one would think are beneath the qualifications and experience that they hold – meaning that graduates applying for jobs can be competing with people far more experienced and versed in that industry or role. Clearly the experienced candidate is less of a risk and going to be a better candidate mostly so this makes it more difficult straight away.
On top of this some roles advertised are merely fronts advertised by recruitment consultancies to get high calibre applicants to sign up to that agency, so that when things pick up they have a backlog of people on the books that they can place quickly, earning a shed-load of commission in the process. I have had this confirmed to me by one recruitment consultant. This is highly frustrating when you travel into central London after 2 hours on the train to realise the job you are being put forward for doesn’t exist! It was even mentioned to me, though I have not had this confirmed, that some companies are advertising jobs through recruitment companies merely to keep the recruitment company busy if they have a contract with them or for HR to window shop/have something to do.
As I’m sure you can imagine the turmoil in the market has had a huge impact on the graduate employment market, the government has advised graduates to work abroad or ‘volunteer’ in unofficial surveys over a third of bosses said they wouldn’t be taking on graduates and so on.
For me the turmoil comes mostly out of frustration of not being able to get stuck into my career and to start making inroads and start making money. I also know of many friends that have had to massively change plans and industries and settle for jobs they were not envisioning doing – after 3 or 4 years of work it is quite demoralising.
I personally have a long held desire to get into financial services in the City and am willing to try anything from selling, wealth management, stock broking, investments, banking etc etc etc. However this seems to be an area greatly affected because of how things are and as a whole unqualified or inexperienced in a certain area candidates are seldom getting a look in and there are few jobs advertised for graduates in any place that I have seen. As a result I have been looking at getting to the top in the more usual graduate schemes in industries such as by doing CIMA but whilst I would earn fairly good money it is a long investment time wise and part of me fears I would be frustrated by not doing something I have wanted to do since high school. I have two desires in my life, one revolves around cars, the other is to make it and be successful. As such I am currently weighing up whether to turn down the grad scheme and concentrating on getting that job in the city or on getting a similar job elsewhere or in putting everything into the grad scheme for a few years and see how far I can go – a bloody difficult decision to make!
It’s a difficult time and deep down I am thankful that I have no children or mortgages to have to worry about like many people on PH that have lost their jobs. I just thought I’d open my experiences up to discussion to allow for a picture of experiences at every level of the market and experiences.
I hope that people find this interesting! Any advice or thoughts I'd gladly listen to and take on board
P.S Anyone want to give me a job?
Eddw86 said:
..........people are often applying to jobs that one would think are beneath the qualifications and experience that they hold – meaning that graduates applying for jobs can be competing with people far more experienced and versed in that industry or role. Clearly the experienced candidate is less of a risk and going to be a better candidate mostly so this makes it more difficult straight away.
Due to what's on offer, I have trimmed down my CV and applied for roles to which I thought I'd long progressed from.
I have been quite successful in applying for the erm... how do I word this in a non-offensive way? a less-skilled position? These are the only ones available at the moment and I can no longer be picky on what job I take next - I just need a job -> wages -> bills. A very simple cycle.
Surely these companies realise that the people who are aiming below themselves will not be as-commited, or indeed a long-term candidate for internal progression.
A colleague of mine has just accepted a 1st line job (IT) as there simply is nothing else. He told them what they wanted to hear and he can now (just) cover the cost of living - bar any form of a social life or pocket money. But rest assured, he - like many others, will jump ships at the first opportunity.
You are correct in your analysis.
Employee A has worked in the industry for 10 years and is earning £35k. He has a mortgage, car finance, wife & kids to support etc and is made redundant. He applies for lots of jobs at ~£35k but no luck. So, in an effort to pay the bills he has to start looking at jobs ~ £25k. This means he is now up against Graduates and 'less experienced' people who are in their experience infancy. He has the upper hand and gets the job.
I've seen it happen to friends time and time again.
I was facing redundancy last year (1 year into a small firm's fastrack scheme, post Uni) so jumped ship into the first job I could find in the public sector. Once you're in the door it is much easier to find suitable jobs and apply internally, and very recently been offered a job in the area I wanted to go into, which fits into my 'career path'.
Employee A has worked in the industry for 10 years and is earning £35k. He has a mortgage, car finance, wife & kids to support etc and is made redundant. He applies for lots of jobs at ~£35k but no luck. So, in an effort to pay the bills he has to start looking at jobs ~ £25k. This means he is now up against Graduates and 'less experienced' people who are in their experience infancy. He has the upper hand and gets the job.
I've seen it happen to friends time and time again.
I was facing redundancy last year (1 year into a small firm's fastrack scheme, post Uni) so jumped ship into the first job I could find in the public sector. Once you're in the door it is much easier to find suitable jobs and apply internally, and very recently been offered a job in the area I wanted to go into, which fits into my 'career path'.
Well I've just graduated and was over the moon with a £240 a week random bottom of the ladder sales job. Certainly beats being a poor student anyway. I think you are correct when you say that mant students apply for jobs above their means and i have to admit many people I went to uni with think I'm made doing my current job and have said things to the extent that they feel a lot of entry level jobs are below them now they are graduates. Their the ones still sat at home with no job mind! Something I'm also amazed at is the number of students who instantly want to do the whole move into a house with their gf and settle down thing. seems a bit illogical to me to do all this like many I know then realise a few months down the line they can't really affrod it as their job expectations were a bit high!
I was pretty lucky in that the small family owned company who I had been working with part time were keen to keep me on.
Graduate level salary, commitment to professional qualifications for me, the chance to work in Shanghai at some point, a 33 hour work week and Friday afternoons off.
I cooly bit their arm off.
Graduate level salary, commitment to professional qualifications for me, the chance to work in Shanghai at some point, a 33 hour work week and Friday afternoons off.
I cooly bit their arm off.
wizbit said:
Eddw86 said:
..........people are often applying to jobs that one would think are beneath the qualifications and experience that they hold – meaning that graduates applying for jobs can be competing with people far more experienced and versed in that industry or role. Clearly the experienced candidate is less of a risk and going to be a better candidate mostly so this makes it more difficult straight away.
Due to what's on offer, I have trimmed down my CV and applied for roles to which I thought I'd long progressed from.
I have been quite successful in applying for the erm... how do I word this in a non-offensive way? a less-skilled position? These are the only ones available at the moment and I can no longer be picky on what job I take next - I just need a job -> wages -> bills. A very simple cycle.
Surely these companies realise that the people who are aiming below themselves will not be as-commited, or indeed a long-term candidate for internal progression.
A colleague of mine has just accepted a 1st line job (IT) as there simply is nothing else. He told them what they wanted to hear and he can now (just) cover the cost of living - bar any form of a social life or pocket money. But rest assured, he - like many others, will jump ships at the first opportunity.
I did a version of my CV which made out I was a factory worker, and took it door to door in 3 local towns, as instructed by Norman Tebbit. Nothing from 200 CV's
I did a version of my CV which was designed to get me an experienced manufacturing engineers job, nothing from 35 applications
Then I started applying for jobs that I considered above me, and I seemed to get a better response, 2 interviews for contract positions, resulting in a job that I can do.
The contract I have now came through a CV which was designed to get a consultancy role.
Just my 2p worth, and you can take it however you like.
I graduated in 2001, and recognise that I was fortunate to get in at a boom time. Even then, finding a "graduate job" wasn't that easy. I had a relevant degree, and had spent 3 of my 4 summers working in a related field. (Banking then accountancy at a CA's before moving into public sector audit as a graduate if you're interested). Nearly a decade on, and now at the stage of recruiting myself, you do often find yourself pulled towards more experienced candidates, for a number of reasons.
The most important one though, is that they've got proof they can do a good job.
Although exams prove you've got a certain standard of intelligence, they aren't the be all and end all. I've worked with qualified accountants that are hopeless cretins, and I've worked with people with no more than a handful of highers that are sharp as a tack.
Once I was in my much coveted "graduate job" it becomes clear that it's not exactly what you expect. Yes the top employers do train the arse off you, and I mean the very top. If you're working in accountancy, then you are basically a well paid office junior. You do the photocopying. You carry the files out to the taxi in the rain. You get sent into clients first to make sure the accounts add up, you're the last to finish on them making sure the final print still adds up and the spelling is right. Maybe this is why the Big 4 call their trainees "cannon fodder".
Very little of this NEEDS a degree. On top of that, if you're doing accountancy then the time you would like to spend with your mates/bird you're studying again. Woohoo.
Anyway, what you learn as a graduate trainee, you can learn much of in any low level admin job, so don't be precious about your degree. Do anything to prove to someone that you can do a job, and whatever it is, even if it isn't "graduate level", make a f**king good job of it. So that when someone is reading the reference for the job that you really do want, the guy recruiting you can see that your boss really values you, and you'll do a good job of whatever you get given. As an employer, that's what you're really looking for.
There was a great article on the Times webste recently written by the CEO of McDonald's about their role in training people and their attitude to it. He's said much of what I have, most of it more eloquently.
But my summary is, just get a job, any job, and do it well. When you do that, you'll get the next better job.
Unless Daddy owns the bank, then you've just got to dive in at the bottom with the muck and serve your time. Shovel harder and faster than the rest of the grunts, and you'll get up and out quicker.
I graduated in 2001, and recognise that I was fortunate to get in at a boom time. Even then, finding a "graduate job" wasn't that easy. I had a relevant degree, and had spent 3 of my 4 summers working in a related field. (Banking then accountancy at a CA's before moving into public sector audit as a graduate if you're interested). Nearly a decade on, and now at the stage of recruiting myself, you do often find yourself pulled towards more experienced candidates, for a number of reasons.
The most important one though, is that they've got proof they can do a good job.
Although exams prove you've got a certain standard of intelligence, they aren't the be all and end all. I've worked with qualified accountants that are hopeless cretins, and I've worked with people with no more than a handful of highers that are sharp as a tack.
Once I was in my much coveted "graduate job" it becomes clear that it's not exactly what you expect. Yes the top employers do train the arse off you, and I mean the very top. If you're working in accountancy, then you are basically a well paid office junior. You do the photocopying. You carry the files out to the taxi in the rain. You get sent into clients first to make sure the accounts add up, you're the last to finish on them making sure the final print still adds up and the spelling is right. Maybe this is why the Big 4 call their trainees "cannon fodder".
Very little of this NEEDS a degree. On top of that, if you're doing accountancy then the time you would like to spend with your mates/bird you're studying again. Woohoo.
Anyway, what you learn as a graduate trainee, you can learn much of in any low level admin job, so don't be precious about your degree. Do anything to prove to someone that you can do a job, and whatever it is, even if it isn't "graduate level", make a f**king good job of it. So that when someone is reading the reference for the job that you really do want, the guy recruiting you can see that your boss really values you, and you'll do a good job of whatever you get given. As an employer, that's what you're really looking for.
There was a great article on the Times webste recently written by the CEO of McDonald's about their role in training people and their attitude to it. He's said much of what I have, most of it more eloquently.
But my summary is, just get a job, any job, and do it well. When you do that, you'll get the next better job.
Unless Daddy owns the bank, then you've just got to dive in at the bottom with the muck and serve your time. Shovel harder and faster than the rest of the grunts, and you'll get up and out quicker.
Merlot said:
You are correct in your analysis.
Employee A has worked in the industry for 10 years and is earning £35k. He has a mortgage, car finance, wife & kids to support etc and is made redundant. He applies for lots of jobs at ~£35k but no luck. So, in an effort to pay the bills he has to start looking at jobs ~ £25k. This means he is now up against Graduates and 'less experienced' people who are in their experience infancy. He has the upper hand and gets the job.
I've seen it happen to friends time and time again.
I was facing redundancy last year (1 year into a small firm's fastrack scheme, post Uni) so jumped ship into the first job I could find in the public sector. Once you're in the door it is much easier to find suitable jobs and apply internally, and very recently been offered a job in the area I wanted to go into, which fits into my 'career path'.
There is the converse of that, that I have experienced some more specialist roles write off the most experienced because they may end up getting someone up to speed only for them to move on as soon as the job market improves. Employee A has worked in the industry for 10 years and is earning £35k. He has a mortgage, car finance, wife & kids to support etc and is made redundant. He applies for lots of jobs at ~£35k but no luck. So, in an effort to pay the bills he has to start looking at jobs ~ £25k. This means he is now up against Graduates and 'less experienced' people who are in their experience infancy. He has the upper hand and gets the job.
I've seen it happen to friends time and time again.
I was facing redundancy last year (1 year into a small firm's fastrack scheme, post Uni) so jumped ship into the first job I could find in the public sector. Once you're in the door it is much easier to find suitable jobs and apply internally, and very recently been offered a job in the area I wanted to go into, which fits into my 'career path'.
another +1 for competing against experienced people. i'm facing a very real threat of redundancy and as i wanted to change industry anyway i am looking at grad scheme's again. my wage has taken 3 cuts since january so the step down wouldn't be that big anymore.
i would say that for strict graduate schemes, most seem to be closed off to people with 3+ years work experience.
OP - consider setting your sights outside london in the short term. go regional, perhaps to a city you [and thus other graduates] would never consider, thereby shortening your odds. i say this as i live in hull and am surprised by the amount of jobs i am qualified that are being reposted on jobs boards that were originally advertised 1mth+ ago. small pool of professional engineers here is good news for me in the short term.
i would say that for strict graduate schemes, most seem to be closed off to people with 3+ years work experience.
OP - consider setting your sights outside london in the short term. go regional, perhaps to a city you [and thus other graduates] would never consider, thereby shortening your odds. i say this as i live in hull and am surprised by the amount of jobs i am qualified that are being reposted on jobs boards that were originally advertised 1mth+ ago. small pool of professional engineers here is good news for me in the short term.
BigAlinEmbra said:
Anyway, what you learn as a graduate trainee, you can learn much of in any low level admin job, so don't be precious about your degree. Do anything to prove to someone that you can do a job, and whatever it is, even if it isn't "graduate level", make a f**king good job of it. So that when someone is reading the reference for the job that you really do want, the guy recruiting you can see that your boss really values you, and you'll do a good job of whatever you get given. As an employer, that's what you're really looking for.
Perfectly put.Well guys a little update: I have had a place confirmed on a finance graduate scheme for a very large organisation (wont say which just yet), which I'm very happy with. It's a pretty decent starting salary with good progression (No Lambo unfortunately though), the company is known for brilliant training and knowing a couple of people personally who have progressed well since the grad scheme I think it has the opportunities as well as great support whilst studying for the CIMA qualification, which from what I understand is useful whatever I go into longterm!
Looking at the difficulties people are facing, including many of my fellow students and friends and on here I am incredibly pleased at getting this out of the 1000's who applied and it is a complete relief now that burden is off my shoulders... Haven't stopped grinning since I heard if I'm honest!
I realise it won't all be plain sailing and the extra studying will be difficult at times but fingers crossed it'll be worth it!
It's been interesting reading other peoples reflections, my OP wasnt intended to be a whinge more of a reflection on the market from my point of view and shows the difficulties faced at all levels.
Looking at the difficulties people are facing, including many of my fellow students and friends and on here I am incredibly pleased at getting this out of the 1000's who applied and it is a complete relief now that burden is off my shoulders... Haven't stopped grinning since I heard if I'm honest!
I realise it won't all be plain sailing and the extra studying will be difficult at times but fingers crossed it'll be worth it!
It's been interesting reading other peoples reflections, my OP wasnt intended to be a whinge more of a reflection on the market from my point of view and shows the difficulties faced at all levels.
Just to throw my own experience into the limelight. I am just about to graduate from a well regarded University with a degree in 2.1 in Economics.
Last year I applied to a number of summer internships with management consultancy firms, going through rounds of interviews, and unfortunately getting nothing. At first it was a little gutting, I spent time that could have been spent down the pub enjoying myself, and ultimately failed to gain any meaningful internship.
Looking back however it was perhaps one of the most useful things I learnt. Having come from a situation where I hadn't really ever failed at anything before, it forced me to look at where I went wrong.
Fast forward to one year on, I decided that not only was I not going to apply to the same area, but I was going to focus on an area where my skills where strongest. I applied to two companies, both in the top 10 largest in the UK.
I got nothing from one, a straight rejection. The other I had to undertake, an online test, a first round 2 hour interview, and a second round 2 day assessment type event.
The two day event was extremely daunting as I had a vest array of challenges, and group exercise thrown at me. On top of that I knew that out of the 10 people there we were competing for one job.
I knew I couldn’t afford to make the failures I had made the year before, and thankfully I was offered the graduate management scheme for this September. Now all this was secured in back in January, and to be honest, knowing I have a job sorted has lifted a massive weight off my shoulders. For the last 6 months when everybody else has been worrying I have been secure.
However comparing my outcome to that of my girlfriend and most of my friends I would say those with jobs are the exception. So many people whom are considering masters degrees appear to be doing it to fill a year, which I can fully understand. Those looking for jobs seem to be struggling, and be considering jobs which are far below those they would have considered to be entering if asked for their expectations when they started Uni.
I guess what I’m saying is that for me being knocked back wasn't the be all and end all, for me it forced me to learn about myself, focus on my strengths and moved forward.
Last year I applied to a number of summer internships with management consultancy firms, going through rounds of interviews, and unfortunately getting nothing. At first it was a little gutting, I spent time that could have been spent down the pub enjoying myself, and ultimately failed to gain any meaningful internship.
Looking back however it was perhaps one of the most useful things I learnt. Having come from a situation where I hadn't really ever failed at anything before, it forced me to look at where I went wrong.
Fast forward to one year on, I decided that not only was I not going to apply to the same area, but I was going to focus on an area where my skills where strongest. I applied to two companies, both in the top 10 largest in the UK.
I got nothing from one, a straight rejection. The other I had to undertake, an online test, a first round 2 hour interview, and a second round 2 day assessment type event.
The two day event was extremely daunting as I had a vest array of challenges, and group exercise thrown at me. On top of that I knew that out of the 10 people there we were competing for one job.
I knew I couldn’t afford to make the failures I had made the year before, and thankfully I was offered the graduate management scheme for this September. Now all this was secured in back in January, and to be honest, knowing I have a job sorted has lifted a massive weight off my shoulders. For the last 6 months when everybody else has been worrying I have been secure.
However comparing my outcome to that of my girlfriend and most of my friends I would say those with jobs are the exception. So many people whom are considering masters degrees appear to be doing it to fill a year, which I can fully understand. Those looking for jobs seem to be struggling, and be considering jobs which are far below those they would have considered to be entering if asked for their expectations when they started Uni.
I guess what I’m saying is that for me being knocked back wasn't the be all and end all, for me it forced me to learn about myself, focus on my strengths and moved forward.
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