Advice please re: bad job reference leading to dismissal...
Discussion
Guys, I need some advice on behalf of a friend who works in retail (sales assistant).
She resigned from French Connection under a bit of a cloud - was already under HR 'wanrning' (late a lot and lied to protect a colleague), but got a job at Karen Millen very quickly.
However, on her first day at KM, the Manager told her that following references, they were terminating her contract! She later found out that the KM Manager popped in to see the FC Manager (same shopping centre) and spent a lot of time talking.
So these 'references' were probably verbal and unofficial. However, my guess is that whatever the FC Manager said was probably true, but I thought these days companies didn't give bad references? What recourse does she now have against FC, especially to stop them doing the same thing again?
Thanks in advance for all advice!!
She resigned from French Connection under a bit of a cloud - was already under HR 'wanrning' (late a lot and lied to protect a colleague), but got a job at Karen Millen very quickly.
However, on her first day at KM, the Manager told her that following references, they were terminating her contract! She later found out that the KM Manager popped in to see the FC Manager (same shopping centre) and spent a lot of time talking.
So these 'references' were probably verbal and unofficial. However, my guess is that whatever the FC Manager said was probably true, but I thought these days companies didn't give bad references? What recourse does she now have against FC, especially to stop them doing the same thing again?
Thanks in advance for all advice!!
Edited by Golden fleece on Wednesday 25th August 10:04
Golden fleece said:
...
So these 'references' were probably verbal and unofficial. However, my guess is that whatever the FC Manager said was probably true, but I thought these days companies didn't give bad references? What recourse does she now have against FC, especially to stop them doing the same thing again?
Thanks in advance for all advice!!
You thought wrong. There is nothing wrong in a company telling the truth. If that truth is that on 17 dates in the last 120 days the person arrived late and was disciplined for that, and that the person had also been disciplined for lying then that is acceptable to include in a reference. Whils tit is a rare thing to happen, it's not as unusual as some would think, especially between those that know each other.So these 'references' were probably verbal and unofficial. However, my guess is that whatever the FC Manager said was probably true, but I thought these days companies didn't give bad references? What recourse does she now have against FC, especially to stop them doing the same thing again?
Thanks in advance for all advice!!
Thanks for all the input, guys! So it's not good news, but to be expected given her circumstances.
However, what can she do going forward to ensure she doesn't get any bad refs from FC for the next job?? Anything? How about writing to FC MD at Head Office threatening to sue? HO may at least then tell the FC Manager to 'put a sock in it' and give a neutral ref next time?
However, what can she do going forward to ensure she doesn't get any bad refs from FC for the next job?? Anything? How about writing to FC MD at Head Office threatening to sue? HO may at least then tell the FC Manager to 'put a sock in it' and give a neutral ref next time?
Golden fleece said:
Thanks for all the input, guys! So it's not good news, but to be expected given her circumstances.
However, what can she do going forward to ensure she doesn't get any bad refs from FC for the next job?? Anything? How about writing to FC MD at Head Office threatening to sue? HO may at least then tell the FC Manager to 'put a sock in it' and give a neutral ref next time?
How could she possibly sue FC because she was sHowever, what can she do going forward to ensure she doesn't get any bad refs from FC for the next job?? Anything? How about writing to FC MD at Head Office threatening to sue? HO may at least then tell the FC Manager to 'put a sock in it' and give a neutral ref next time?
t at her job so got a bad reference?Regardless of what the 'law' is you can never stop the off the record conversations people WILL have. Can she prove that the conversation was about her? Can she prove what was said? will either the KM or other manager give evidence as to this? Was the conversation recorded or written down?
Sure I suspect she could try to do something legal but hell, snowball, chance, in, imo.
Best bet is to try to get another job and head the ref off at the pass by explaining her previous difficulties and that she wants a chance to prove herself. Either that or move well out of town and hope to hell they don't ask for another reference.
Sorry but she made her bed when she became a total liability to employ.
Sure I suspect she could try to do something legal but hell, snowball, chance, in, imo.
Best bet is to try to get another job and head the ref off at the pass by explaining her previous difficulties and that she wants a chance to prove herself. Either that or move well out of town and hope to hell they don't ask for another reference.
Sorry but she made her bed when she became a total liability to employ.
Thanks all. Looks like she has run out of options. 
Shame really, because she has worked for FC for 5 yrs and was a valuable and highly regarded member of staff until getting bored the past year or so and taking the piss a bit. Her biggest mistake was the misguided attempt to help out a colleague by lying about something quite serious (and then getting found out)!
Shame really, because she has worked for FC for 5 yrs and was a valuable and highly regarded member of staff until getting bored the past year or so and taking the piss a bit. Her biggest mistake was the misguided attempt to help out a colleague by lying about something quite serious (and then getting found out)!
An informal chat is not a reference. It's pretty harsh, and IMO bad practice to hire someone then sack them because of bad references, and worse still an informal chat which turned out to be negative. But at the same time it's quite understandable from the shop's point of view.
Did the KM manager ask her if she would get a good reference from FC? And did she ask her former manager if he would give her a good reference? It doesn't have to be a glowing reference to say she was the best employee ever, but usually saying that she turned up on time (!) and did what was asked of her is enough. In my experience few people are so bitter against a former employee that they wish to scupper their chances of getting work elsewhere. Though it sounds like this might be an exception.
What she can do going forward is not be late, not lie to protect colleagues, and make sure she gets a good reference from her next job. She can also address the problem head on and say she will not get a good reference from this job because ABC, she has done XYZ to address the problem and will not let it happen again.
Did the KM manager ask her if she would get a good reference from FC? And did she ask her former manager if he would give her a good reference? It doesn't have to be a glowing reference to say she was the best employee ever, but usually saying that she turned up on time (!) and did what was asked of her is enough. In my experience few people are so bitter against a former employee that they wish to scupper their chances of getting work elsewhere. Though it sounds like this might be an exception.
What she can do going forward is not be late, not lie to protect colleagues, and make sure she gets a good reference from her next job. She can also address the problem head on and say she will not get a good reference from this job because ABC, she has done XYZ to address the problem and will not let it happen again.
AJS- said:
...In my experience few people are so bitter against a former employee that they wish to scupper their chances of getting work elsewhere. Though it sounds like this might be an exception.
That's the problem - her ex-FC Manager (female!) HATES her guts and was very jealous about her new job at Karen Millen. Otherwise, you are right - most employers wouldn't bother deliberately ruining someone's future job prospects.It's not illegal to give bad references. However giving bad references you can't back up with fact can get you in trouble so most HR departments just stick to basic facts.
It sounds like all her 'issues' at FC were documented and so I doubt there would be any recourse in going after them.
Unless she had a contract with KM which stated otherwise (v.unlikely), then they can get rid of her for a year without giving any reason so no help there either.
So in short, your friend is best moving on and considering how to explain her poor references to potential employers (or how to cover it up).
She might also want to reconsider her attitude too.
It sounds like all her 'issues' at FC were documented and so I doubt there would be any recourse in going after them.
Unless she had a contract with KM which stated otherwise (v.unlikely), then they can get rid of her for a year without giving any reason so no help there either.
So in short, your friend is best moving on and considering how to explain her poor references to potential employers (or how to cover it up).
She might also want to reconsider her attitude too.
musclecarmad said:
she turned up late and took the piss as you have said. She turned up late often.
She lied about something serious.
I wouldn't want her working with me!
She is a bit knackered now as her past 5 years history is a killer as she will need to put that down when asked what she did previously. Any company bigger than a one man band will want a reference and even any smart one man band will want a reference. Whatever she does, don't make up a reference!
Does she want to be self employed?
She lied about something serious.
I wouldn't want her working with me!
She is a bit knackered now as her past 5 years history is a killer as she will need to put that down when asked what she did previously. Any company bigger than a one man band will want a reference and even any smart one man band will want a reference. Whatever she does, don't make up a reference!
Does she want to be self employed?
Good point re making it up.
It's a criminal offence to lie on a CV to get a job. Serious bother.
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