I need some help

[Jonboy_t]

I've recently started a new job with a new company and have had a shocking conversation today that I really need some help with. Basically, this is the story in bullet points:

In my old job, my title (as far as I knew), was 'Manager',
New job is 'Assistant Manager' (took a voluntary drop, closer to home, still more money etc),
Old company's HR has now submitted a reference stating I was a 'Team Leader',
New company are now on about 'breach of confidence' and 'abuse of trust' saying that, essentially, I lied my way through an interview just to get the job.

I'm absolutely gutted, I love my job and thought I was doing pretty well (they've just offered me ~£2500 a year to do a financial qualification). Now I'm getting told that I'm in for an 'informal' (whatever that means) discussion with HR next Tuesday in which I need to prove that I was a 'Manager' and not a 'Team Leader'. I've been told that, although this is an 'informal' (that bloody word again) meeting, unless I can show that I haven't BS'd my way into the job, it will go to a more formal (assuming they mean gross misconduct) hearing at which Termination would be an option (and a likelihood IMO).

How the hell can I prove I was anything if the old companies HR team say I wasn't. I have no contract from the old place (neither do they), I have no correspondence that would have this information on it.

It's basically my word against that of a multi-national HR department. I think I'm fked and I'm absolutely cacking it.

Any idea's on if I can do anything, or had I better go in with my resignation on Tuesday?

[Jonboy_t]

Unfortunately, the job title isn't on my payslip, just the company name plus the normal tax bits.

I have left a message for the previous employers HR dept, but I don't hold out much hope of getting any help from them. It is a huge global company (10,000+ employee's in UK alone) so the HR dept are notorious for just doing what they have to do and nothing else above. My thinking (and I'll have to wait for a call back from them to confirm this) is that they have 'Team Leader' on their systems from somewhere, that's why they put this on the reference, so they will simply give me a 'well that's what you were then' kind of answer.

I don't have an old job spec either. That was one of my bugbears when I was there - I covered a few 'leavers' (redundancies) jobs too so I think it was in their interest not to give me a spec otherwise they may have had to renumerate me for the roles I covered too (not that I would have asked for this though).

My main concern now is that I've just been incredibly niaive and am going to suffer from my own stupidity. I'm starting to doubt that my old title was ever 'Manager' and that, just because I was referred to as 'Manager' by all and sundry (my team, my boss, their boss, Directors), it just stuck with me. If this is the case and I have just been a 'tard, I have absolutely no way of proving that it was not intentionally misleading (which it absolutely was not) and I may as well go and beg for their mercy now.

I'm a genuinely honest bloke, I have fallen on my own sword more than once in the past when I've made a fk up, but I seriously don't think this is a fk up, and I know it's not an intentional lie, I just need to find a way of proving it.

[Jonboy_t]

cheers guys.

My old boss and I got on really well inside and outside of work. He has sent a personal reference to my new company that states 'Manager' and is absolutely glowing (HR showed me it today) but they won't accept it as (and I quote from memory) 'it's possible I could be in collusion with him'. He couldn't do a professional reference as the HR department won't let anyone do so (I think this is pretty normal though).

Could this be a case of wanting to get rid of me and clutching at straws? I'm starting to think it is. It's a filthy way of doing it if it is. I've had no performance management, no discussions voicing any concerns, not even a 'could try harder'. I'm still in probation period (ends on 4th July, coincidence?) so shirley it would be a case of 'it's not working out, have a nice life'?

Could be the drink having a pessimistic effect on me though.... (I'm not working tomorrow btw!)

[Jonboy_t]

russ_a said:

If you are doing a good job I very much doubt your new manager would want to see you go over a job title.

What is the difference between Team Leader and Manager?

I really hope you're right, and I think deep down, I know you are right. It probably is just me being a pessimist about it all, but that's how I'm feeling at the mo!

In my eyes, a TL looks after a sub-team in a larger team, so instead of having 40 direct reports, the manager would have 4 team leads with 9 direct reports each (good example would be a large sales team). A Manager, however, reports into the 'Head Of' or someone who has overall ownership of more than one team - just what I was in my old role. My boss looked after a Finance department (Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, Cash Operations and one other) and I was the Manager of the Accounts Payable Team. My boss then reported into the FD.

In my companies eyes though, god knows!

[Jonboy_t]

My old company haven't advertised my old role as the team and my job have now moved to an Indian outsourcing centre so there is no role there anymore (that was why I moved).

I've just got back from a lads weekend away and have a few drunken moments to reflect on the situation and where it leaves me, both personally and professionally.

My word is my bond and I never, ever break it, no matter what. I would have hoped that my new company would have had this demonstrated to them, yet they still think it is right to take things further - I think that answers all of the questions in my mind and is perhaps a more pertinent point than the actual sitation itself.

I'm still off work tomorrow on A/L so I'm going to be going back up to my old company and speaking with the FD there about rejoining. I had 5 very pleasant years with the company, they didn't pay fantastically well, but I never had my integrity called into question and that means more to me than most things.

Just to add, thank you so much for everyones help on here. I've been feeling like a bit of a fk up since this happened, but you guys have been genuinely helpful and it's made me feel a hell of a lot better about the whole thing. CHEERS!!!

[Jonboy_t]

I do have an update, but unfortunately not a resolution yet - I went in for the 2nd informal meeting last week and was 'invited' to a formal probationary review on Friday.

Throughout the whole process, the issue has always been over my role title, yet during the 2nd informal meeting, the issue of my pay at my old company was [u]mentioned[/u] - from memory the conversation was, Them -"you told us your pay at your old company was £X", Me - "Yes".

(When asked what my pay was at my old company, I told them £X. This included shares that the company give me - the shares made up around £10k a year, so my basic is effectively £10k less than the sum I gave them. I have always included non-optional benefits as salary - I don't ask for them, they give them to me, so why should I not?)

I went to the formal probationary review on Friday after over a week of sleeping less than an hour per night and throwing up everything I ate through nerves, only to find the entire conversation was about my pay and not about the subject I had been led to believe it was about - I think we spoke for around a minute on the issue of the job title before parking that subject and moving onto the money.

I now have to wait for a SECOND formal investigation to take place on Tuesday next week. This is to give me chance to get some evidence together to prove that I haven't bullstted about my salary too. This should be a pretty simple one to get over though as I have P60's, payslips and P45's and, although these don't show the shares, I also have share certificates to prove that I paid £X amount in each month and my company also paid the same, plus they show that they paid me dividends of £1k a year on top of that too.

It is utterly disgusting that they can get away with putting someone through this for what I can only see as their own sick little game. I took a £6k a year pay cut to come to this job as the company could offer me a hell of a lot more in the long run and they are still saying that I have BS'd my way into the job - WHY THE HELL WOULD I LIE TO GET A PAY CUT?!?!?!

[Jonboy_t]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I do agree with you and I can see how it may seem misleading to them (I've told them this too), but I have never seen the shares as an 'extra' as they are something just given to me. I suppose a 'perk' would probably have been a better description in hindsight.

I have a payslip at home that is from 4 months into the last tax year (old company moved online only after that, so that's the last one I have) and the YTD figure at the top is 1/3rd of what I told them my salary was (give or take £500), so I am providing this as evidence to them on Tuesday which I hope will clear it up.

As for playing the game, I do know what you mean. I know of and have interviewed a lot of people who have embellished their income by a thousand or two, but I've had no need to do that. The pay cut I took was a little under £6k (off base + shares) and if I were to inflate what i was earning, I would have done it by enough that the new company at least came up to what I was earning before, other wise it's a bit of a pointless task!

[Jonboy_t]

Hi guys, sorry I've not replied to this for a few days!

I've now 'parted ways' with the company over this. I had the final formal probation review on Monday afternoon (was supposed to be Tuesday, but they moved the time) and was told something along the lines of 'we still don't believe you, we're not signing off your probation'.

I've sought legal advice from a few independant experts and from senior union members/leaders that are friends of the family. The outcome of all of the conversations have been that I could quite easily take them to the cleaners over i) the circumstances as they don't equal a 'sackable' offence ii) the disgusting treatment I have received from the company during this situation and iii) the fact that the company have contravened their own policies throughout the process. Unfortunately though, as I haven't been at the company for a year, an unfair dismissal tribunal isn't possible, so I need to follow the appeal process laid out by the company which I am now doing - I should hear back very soon on their thoughts.

As I'm not the kind of person to sit and wallow, I have managed to secure myself a temp role at a nearby company that I start on Friday for at least 3 weeks whilst I look for something more permanent. It's not my ideal job, it's actually doing the role that I've been managing for the past 3 years, but it's a job, which puts me in a much better position than I could be in, so I'm grateful for it!

The oddest thing about this whole situation is that I have absolutely no regrets over the outcome whatsoever. I've found that when I'm talking about it to friends, I'm not saying 'unfortunately I'm not there anymore' or 'it's a shame but xxx' as to me, it's really not a shame or unfortunate. I was part of a company that has absolutely zero trust in almost all of the employees that work for it and where underhand tactics are the encouraged norm rather than being the discouraged exception.

Overall - embarrased that I lost a job over such stty circumstances, but happy that I don't have to explain myself to cowboys on a daily basis anymore!!

Thank you all for your advice throughout this guys. It's been a real support to read your thoughts and opinons on this.