Tea and biscuits required
Discussion
Hi all
Thought I'd throw this out to the PH masses as there is a wealth of knowledge and experience on here. To cut to the chase, I have a preliminary hearing booked this month as I do my David v Goliath bit and take a massive international company to a tribunal. I "think" it's as cut and dried of a case as it's possible to have but can't help having doubts so I guess I'm just looking for a bit of validation or whatever the opposite of that is!!
The background is that I joined this Company at the beginning of Aug 2016 in a sales role and immediately began to out-perform all of my peers, so happy days. In Dec 2016 I began to feel 'odd', difficulty in thinking clearly, visual / balance issues, fatigue etc. Thinking that I was just a bit run down I took a week off from both work and the gym in an effort to recharge. The recharge didn't really happen and over the next few months my symptoms began to worsen. I excused myself from work in Mar 2017 as I was struggling to stay upright or see clearly, my doc signed me off pending investigations and I pinged my absence certificates to my line manager.
This went on for a number of months, HR got involved and at first told me that I would be considered AWOL (my line manager on two occasions didn't forward my certificates) they then accused me of not returning a GP consent form and an occupational health consent form. The fact that they hadn't actually sent the forms didn't seem to detract them! Then, due to the length of the absence I was allocated an HR point of contact, she sent me the documents by email, I signed then and returned them. I updated her with every appointment, result and every avenue of thought regarding a diagnosis. She acknowledged the receipt of the GP and OH forms in June 2017. The correspondence continued, she (HR) would reply within minutes or if late in the day, the next working day. This continued until the 12th July 2017, following a week spent as an inpatient in hospital and lots of tests I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. This was acknowledged by her and she made reference to arranging a meeting between HR, myself and my regional sales manager to discuss next steps.
Just one problem, no meeting was arranged, no OH appointment arranged and despite me continuing to send updates, I received no response or reply. This continued for 7 months during which time the only contact I had was a generic SSP1 stating that I would no longer be paid SSP and to contact the job centre. I periodically chatted with my line manager via text etc, I informed him that HR weren't responding anymore but still the silence continued. As I felt that the Company had completely cut me off from the day of my diagnosis of a condition that automatically qualifies as a disability under employment law I approached ACAS. ACAS contacted them but they didn't want to engage, ACAS made contact on the 27th Feb 2018 which coincidentally seemed to spark a flurry of activity. A payment appeared in my account the very next morning. To this day I have had no wage slip to support it and can only assume it was the accrued, untaken holiday up to the end of the holiday year in Sep 17. A letter from HR (a new contact) was drafted and sent to me on the 28th Feb inviting me to a 'welfare meeting' to take place on the 6th Mar at my house. The meeting took place between myself, my line manager and the regional manager, HR did not attend. I was asked to sign a GP consent form and a OH form.....again.. I told them straight that I felt that this meeting was only happening due to ACAS contacting the Company without which I'd still be getting the silent treatment. They disagreed but I was shown the email from HR to my RSM and coincidentally, it was dated the 27th Feb 18, the day that ACAS made contact.
I have finally had the OH appointment, over 1 year since signing the consent and receiving acknowledgement of receipt. The first appointment was cancelled by me due to ill health. The second appointment didn't happen because my Company had agreed to send a taxi to collect me but failed to do so but we finally achieved it on the 3rd attempt. I received the report on the 19th Jun 18 and finally had an email from HR (yet another new contact) on the 25th Jun to say that they'd be in touch once they'd received their copy (which they got the same time I did!!). I even sent them my copy to "help" them but they've gone quiet again.
To summarise then, for those who are still awake.
I have the preliminary hearing this month
I'm taking them to a tribunal on the grounds of disability discrimination by virtue of
1) cutting me off from the day that I told them of my diagnosis
2) Replacing me in my absence (there is a back story to this but I've bored you enough for now)
3) Keeping me in limbo over 12 months by not acting on the Occupational Health form from June 2017
4) failing to communicate with me from even as much as a welfare perspective
5) generally being dicks
I've documented everything including the 'chats' between myself and my line manager which includes such peaches as "at no stage have HR ever contacted me regarding you or asked me to keep them updated".
Despite all of this, and much, much more that I haven't said on here, what are your thoughts on how much of a case I have, generally speaking?
Any thoughts much appreciated, not after sympathy or any of that crap just perhaps something to help rid me of some of the doubts in my mind along the lines of 'Large, multinational Company are going to wiggle out of this'
Cheers
Thought I'd throw this out to the PH masses as there is a wealth of knowledge and experience on here. To cut to the chase, I have a preliminary hearing booked this month as I do my David v Goliath bit and take a massive international company to a tribunal. I "think" it's as cut and dried of a case as it's possible to have but can't help having doubts so I guess I'm just looking for a bit of validation or whatever the opposite of that is!!
The background is that I joined this Company at the beginning of Aug 2016 in a sales role and immediately began to out-perform all of my peers, so happy days. In Dec 2016 I began to feel 'odd', difficulty in thinking clearly, visual / balance issues, fatigue etc. Thinking that I was just a bit run down I took a week off from both work and the gym in an effort to recharge. The recharge didn't really happen and over the next few months my symptoms began to worsen. I excused myself from work in Mar 2017 as I was struggling to stay upright or see clearly, my doc signed me off pending investigations and I pinged my absence certificates to my line manager.
This went on for a number of months, HR got involved and at first told me that I would be considered AWOL (my line manager on two occasions didn't forward my certificates) they then accused me of not returning a GP consent form and an occupational health consent form. The fact that they hadn't actually sent the forms didn't seem to detract them! Then, due to the length of the absence I was allocated an HR point of contact, she sent me the documents by email, I signed then and returned them. I updated her with every appointment, result and every avenue of thought regarding a diagnosis. She acknowledged the receipt of the GP and OH forms in June 2017. The correspondence continued, she (HR) would reply within minutes or if late in the day, the next working day. This continued until the 12th July 2017, following a week spent as an inpatient in hospital and lots of tests I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. This was acknowledged by her and she made reference to arranging a meeting between HR, myself and my regional sales manager to discuss next steps.
Just one problem, no meeting was arranged, no OH appointment arranged and despite me continuing to send updates, I received no response or reply. This continued for 7 months during which time the only contact I had was a generic SSP1 stating that I would no longer be paid SSP and to contact the job centre. I periodically chatted with my line manager via text etc, I informed him that HR weren't responding anymore but still the silence continued. As I felt that the Company had completely cut me off from the day of my diagnosis of a condition that automatically qualifies as a disability under employment law I approached ACAS. ACAS contacted them but they didn't want to engage, ACAS made contact on the 27th Feb 2018 which coincidentally seemed to spark a flurry of activity. A payment appeared in my account the very next morning. To this day I have had no wage slip to support it and can only assume it was the accrued, untaken holiday up to the end of the holiday year in Sep 17. A letter from HR (a new contact) was drafted and sent to me on the 28th Feb inviting me to a 'welfare meeting' to take place on the 6th Mar at my house. The meeting took place between myself, my line manager and the regional manager, HR did not attend. I was asked to sign a GP consent form and a OH form.....again.. I told them straight that I felt that this meeting was only happening due to ACAS contacting the Company without which I'd still be getting the silent treatment. They disagreed but I was shown the email from HR to my RSM and coincidentally, it was dated the 27th Feb 18, the day that ACAS made contact.
I have finally had the OH appointment, over 1 year since signing the consent and receiving acknowledgement of receipt. The first appointment was cancelled by me due to ill health. The second appointment didn't happen because my Company had agreed to send a taxi to collect me but failed to do so but we finally achieved it on the 3rd attempt. I received the report on the 19th Jun 18 and finally had an email from HR (yet another new contact) on the 25th Jun to say that they'd be in touch once they'd received their copy (which they got the same time I did!!). I even sent them my copy to "help" them but they've gone quiet again.
To summarise then, for those who are still awake.
I have the preliminary hearing this month
I'm taking them to a tribunal on the grounds of disability discrimination by virtue of
1) cutting me off from the day that I told them of my diagnosis
2) Replacing me in my absence (there is a back story to this but I've bored you enough for now)
3) Keeping me in limbo over 12 months by not acting on the Occupational Health form from June 2017
4) failing to communicate with me from even as much as a welfare perspective
5) generally being dicks
I've documented everything including the 'chats' between myself and my line manager which includes such peaches as "at no stage have HR ever contacted me regarding you or asked me to keep them updated".
Despite all of this, and much, much more that I haven't said on here, what are your thoughts on how much of a case I have, generally speaking?
Any thoughts much appreciated, not after sympathy or any of that crap just perhaps something to help rid me of some of the doubts in my mind along the lines of 'Large, multinational Company are going to wiggle out of this'
Cheers
No, I'm still employed by them although they don't pay me anything and didn't communicate with me for 7 months. There is no job for me to go back to even if that was possible as the position was filled. On paper, they've upped the number of staff at my particular location by one on the pretence that there is still a position there. They have cited 'a business need' for increasing the staffing by one yet for over a year, they've operated with the same number of staff, haven't recruited a temporary member of staff to cover my absence even during their busiest period of the year.
I am of the opinion that they just assumed that I'd resign when they stopped paying me. I didn't because, well, why would I, I have a contract of employment with them. They could legitimately have dismissed me on the grounds of capability but instead just cut off all communication and didn't act on the signed occupational health consent form for 1 year.
I am of the opinion that they just assumed that I'd resign when they stopped paying me. I didn't because, well, why would I, I have a contract of employment with them. They could legitimately have dismissed me on the grounds of capability but instead just cut off all communication and didn't act on the signed occupational health consent form for 1 year.
edc said:
What are you trying to achieve? It appears you are still employed and have received all the payments you have expected to receive.
I simply want them to look me in the eye, in front of a panel of employment law specialists and explain to me why they decided to treat me in the manner that they have. I've been around the block enough times to know that I am merely a number to them and despite all their posters about how much they value their employees and all that rubbish it is merely a platitude.I'm calling them on it, I dislike bullies and have always stood up for the 'little man', well unfortunately, by a bizarre quirk of fate, I am now the 'little man'. They need to explain why, despite the medical evidence, they chose not to arrange an occupational health appointment for over a year. Why, despite their "duty of care" to me as an employee they chose to simply cut off all correspondence for over 7 months. Coincidentally, prior to telling them of my diagnosis they were all over me like a rash yet they simply stopped replying from the day that I told them of my diagnosis. Why, despite discussing it as the next legitimate course of action, they didn't arrange a meeting with me for over 8 months. All of the above is rhetorical to a degree, they just expected me to quit and cease to be their problem, even if that isn't true, they need to justify their actions / inactions.
xx99xx said:
The company should've made some reasonable adjustments to get you back to work and if that wasn't possible due your health, I'd have thought they would have grounds to offer you ill health retirement, if that's what you wanted.
It's not clear from your info whether you wanted to remain at the company doing whatever role you were capable of and if so, whether they refused to accommodate your wishes.
If you made it clear that you wanted to return to work then they would need good evidence to prove they did everything reasonable to get you back. This would include a number of offers to do certain roles and other adjustments like flexible working, specialist equipment etc. Without this evidence, you have a good case.
The equalities act is very strong so I'm surprised the company hasn't bent over backwards to keep you happy as tribunals take a dim view of large organisations not making an effort.
That's the problem, they can only make reasonable adjustments once they've received the report from Occupational Health. They had a signed consent form for a year before they decided to do anything about it. They knew my diagnosis in July last year and had the medical reports to confirm it. They chose to just ignore that and me for the next 7 months and only re-engaged then because ACAS gave them a call in Feb 2018.It's not clear from your info whether you wanted to remain at the company doing whatever role you were capable of and if so, whether they refused to accommodate your wishes.
If you made it clear that you wanted to return to work then they would need good evidence to prove they did everything reasonable to get you back. This would include a number of offers to do certain roles and other adjustments like flexible working, specialist equipment etc. Without this evidence, you have a good case.
The equalities act is very strong so I'm surprised the company hasn't bent over backwards to keep you happy as tribunals take a dim view of large organisations not making an effort.
Other than that, they did absolutely nothing other then recruit somebody else and hope that I'd just play ball and go away
Hi all...………………...It's been a while!
I guess the main reason for this update is to demonstrate the potential time frame and stresses of going down the Employment Tribunal route. The full merits hearing still hasn't happened, it has been re-scheduled a number of times. The latest dates were scheduled for the 18th-20th Sept 2019 but due to a clerical error at the ET we're going to have a further preliminary hearing on the 20th.
Since my previous post. a great deal has happened, to summarise;
1) I was dismissed on the grounds of medical capability - They did not seek any specialist medical advice, they did not consider any alternative employment and did not carry out any of the recommendations on the Occupational health report. They've even admitted this on their outcome of appeal to dismissal letter.
2) I submitted a Subject Access Request and have since reported them to the ICO as they are quite clearly withholding documents.
3) An email and attached document that they produced as evidence that they were being proactive (they ceased correspondence with me for over 7 months) demonstrates that I was treated differently to 10 other employees who were on long term absence during that period (there are only 12 entries on the document including my own). The other person on the document that had had no contact according to the notes was a person with a "terminal illness", I will be presenting that as evidence of a pattern of behaviour as in my experience, the expression "terminal illness" is usually reserved for a debilitating illness such as cancer and if it was cancer then that person would also have a condition automatically considered to be a disability.
4) the bundle of evidence has been agreed, at least 90% of it is evidence that I've provided, the Company have been unable to produce a single document that supports their version of events.
5) The HR business partner that had overall responsibility yet denied knowing anything about it, that lied on the ET3 response and that has lied on her witness statement (the evidence bundle proves beyond any doubt that she was lying) has left the business, coincidentally, she used to work for the legal firm representing the respondent.
6) I began losing my sight due to a very rare reaction to my medication, fortunately that has resolved itself following a change of meds.
7) The witness statements (4 of them) are the greatest works of fiction since the Harry Potter series, my immediate line manager's statement is just incredible. Again, none of the evidence supports their versions of events.
8) The regional manager who chaired 2 of my meetings including a 2 hr one at my home (the contents of which are denied by my line manager despite the fact that he attended!) has not been asked to provide a statement or has chosen not to because he has integrity, he has also now left the business!
All in all, lots has happened, I've endured threats and attempted intimidation from their legal representatives, declining health, exasperation and stress but all it does is harden my resolve to see it through to the bitter end, whatever that may be.
I'm still feeling pretty positive about the whole thing, they have a case to answer without a doubt, hopefully there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
I guess the main reason for this update is to demonstrate the potential time frame and stresses of going down the Employment Tribunal route. The full merits hearing still hasn't happened, it has been re-scheduled a number of times. The latest dates were scheduled for the 18th-20th Sept 2019 but due to a clerical error at the ET we're going to have a further preliminary hearing on the 20th.
Since my previous post. a great deal has happened, to summarise;
1) I was dismissed on the grounds of medical capability - They did not seek any specialist medical advice, they did not consider any alternative employment and did not carry out any of the recommendations on the Occupational health report. They've even admitted this on their outcome of appeal to dismissal letter.
2) I submitted a Subject Access Request and have since reported them to the ICO as they are quite clearly withholding documents.
3) An email and attached document that they produced as evidence that they were being proactive (they ceased correspondence with me for over 7 months) demonstrates that I was treated differently to 10 other employees who were on long term absence during that period (there are only 12 entries on the document including my own). The other person on the document that had had no contact according to the notes was a person with a "terminal illness", I will be presenting that as evidence of a pattern of behaviour as in my experience, the expression "terminal illness" is usually reserved for a debilitating illness such as cancer and if it was cancer then that person would also have a condition automatically considered to be a disability.
4) the bundle of evidence has been agreed, at least 90% of it is evidence that I've provided, the Company have been unable to produce a single document that supports their version of events.
5) The HR business partner that had overall responsibility yet denied knowing anything about it, that lied on the ET3 response and that has lied on her witness statement (the evidence bundle proves beyond any doubt that she was lying) has left the business, coincidentally, she used to work for the legal firm representing the respondent.
6) I began losing my sight due to a very rare reaction to my medication, fortunately that has resolved itself following a change of meds.
7) The witness statements (4 of them) are the greatest works of fiction since the Harry Potter series, my immediate line manager's statement is just incredible. Again, none of the evidence supports their versions of events.
8) The regional manager who chaired 2 of my meetings including a 2 hr one at my home (the contents of which are denied by my line manager despite the fact that he attended!) has not been asked to provide a statement or has chosen not to because he has integrity, he has also now left the business!
All in all, lots has happened, I've endured threats and attempted intimidation from their legal representatives, declining health, exasperation and stress but all it does is harden my resolve to see it through to the bitter end, whatever that may be.
I'm still feeling pretty positive about the whole thing, they have a case to answer without a doubt, hopefully there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Countdown said:
OP - apologies if I've missed something.
Whilst the Company clearly haven't communicated with you as you feel they should have - what outcome are you hoping for from the Tribunal?
Compensation? Re-instatement?
Originally it was some crusade to hold them accountable for their actions / inactions, it was never driven by money, I genuinely believe, without trying to sound too melodramatic, that some people would be driven to suicide if they'd had to go through this. . However, I'm not naïve to the fact that the only real outcome that is of any use to me is compensation. I believe that I can prove three counts of disability discrimination, that will be the focus of my approach in Court. The only 'defence' that they have been able to provide is that "a number of people left the HR department and it was that and that alone that caused the lack of contact etc". What they didn't mention in that statement is that the people that left were made redundant, they didn't just up and leave.Whilst the Company clearly haven't communicated with you as you feel they should have - what outcome are you hoping for from the Tribunal?
Compensation? Re-instatement?
cbmotorsport said:
I'm surprised that this has got this far, most major companies will just brush something like this under the carpet with an (insignificant to them) pay out. and get you to sign an end to it all.
I think it's in their best interests for it to drag on as long as possible as they know that that has a detrimental effect on me and in their mind, makes it more likely that I'll drop it and it'll go away.The good thing about keeping the 20th as a date where we all have to show up in court despite the full merits being re-scheduled is that it puts some pressure back on them. They physically have to send a representative which means instructing new counsel as the original legal representative is double booked on another case, hence why the full merits is having to be rescheduled.
zarjaz1991 said:
I honestly think, given your condition, all this is doing you more harm than good. I doubt you'll get much money out of them in the grand scheme of things and if it were me I'd have washed my hands of them at least a year ago and probably more like two.
Not in my nature to do that I'm afraid, I cannot and will not stand back and let a bunch of bully-boys, hiding behind a large corporation treat me like this. Additionally, I would not stand back and watch them do it to someone else. Without a doubt this has impacted my health but that's a small price to pay if I can get to a position where they're held accountable for their behaviour.I'm not naïve enough to think that this will give them a conscience or change their ways but by the same token, they need to understand that not everyone is prepared to get rolled over and royally shafted by them without consequence.
I am not Spartacus ;-)
Following the day in Court on the 20th there are positives and negatives. We went through the agreed list of issues under the subject headings of direct disability discrimination, discrimination arising from disability and unfair dismissal.
Their lawyer couldn't answer the questions about whether the company had a legitimate aim and were their actions a proportionate way of achieving that legitimate aim. He bumbled and blustered for a while but then had to admit that the answer was No and the only reason he could offer was "business efficiency".
He also had to acknowledge that according to their own "Long Term Absence Tracker" document (that they sent me during disclosure) that I had demonstrably been treated differently to 10 other people within the same division of the business. That is a bit of an issue for them as there are only 12 people on the tracker.
The judge ripped into them about how they'd worded their 'list of issues' document and also that they hadn't brought him a copy. The only downside from my perspective is that the full merits hearing will not be heard until at least May 2020! This is far from ideal but on a positive note, I can at least forget about it all until nearer the time. The only outstanding event now is that they have until Friday to produce a new 'list of issues' document and hopefully, at some stage in the near future, there will be the official court order from the 20th that summarises the discussions and the order to produce a re-worded document.
I was never under any illusion that this would be a protracted process but I didn't think it would drag on for 3 years!!
Si
Their lawyer couldn't answer the questions about whether the company had a legitimate aim and were their actions a proportionate way of achieving that legitimate aim. He bumbled and blustered for a while but then had to admit that the answer was No and the only reason he could offer was "business efficiency".
He also had to acknowledge that according to their own "Long Term Absence Tracker" document (that they sent me during disclosure) that I had demonstrably been treated differently to 10 other people within the same division of the business. That is a bit of an issue for them as there are only 12 people on the tracker.
The judge ripped into them about how they'd worded their 'list of issues' document and also that they hadn't brought him a copy. The only downside from my perspective is that the full merits hearing will not be heard until at least May 2020! This is far from ideal but on a positive note, I can at least forget about it all until nearer the time. The only outstanding event now is that they have until Friday to produce a new 'list of issues' document and hopefully, at some stage in the near future, there will be the official court order from the 20th that summarises the discussions and the order to produce a re-worded document.
I was never under any illusion that this would be a protracted process but I didn't think it would drag on for 3 years!!
Si
FocusRS3 said:
I'm surprised that at no stage they have tried to put this to bed and offer you a compromise agreement???
They seem more than happy to simply drag it out in the hope that I either a) give up - not happening or b) die - not planning on it but obviously not something that I can guarantee :-)It is possible that there are some meetings going on to discuss trying to make this go away but at this stage, I've not been made aware of anything. Trouble is, they're used to just steamrollering people.
FocusRS3 said:
Well if/when they settle don't forget to award them your Legal bill if in fact you have one or at least all associated costs you may have incurred.
Its exactly what i did......
Yes, I definitely would have but have represented myself throughout so haven't really incurred any monetary costs as such. Everything else was listed on my schedule of loss. As I say, they're fully aware of the impact that it all has on me so, even if they felt that, as I do, they don't have a leg to stand on and are as guilty as sin, it's still in their best interests to delay as long as possible in the hope that I just go away.Its exactly what i did......
Si
dingg said:
I went through something similar, I won a race discrimination case against my employer, looking back it wasn't worth the associated stress or effort, the company's lawyers did very well out of the situation though.
White male British Christian btw
You're spot on, I'm sure their legal team, although on retainer, are milking this for all it's worth. The stupid thing is, they could have had a grown up conversation with me at any time, they chose not to. They chose underhand and strongarm tactics, aggression, threats and general lies and incompetence. White male British Christian btw
I've seen it through this far so may as well keep wind-milling until the end ;-)
Another quick update, as this farce took another turn yesterday. Out of the clear blue sky I received an email from the Company GDPR team. They asked if I could be a little more specific in the my subject access request as there were nearly 6000 emails where I was the subject!! They also explained that as there were so many returns, they reserved the right to either a) take an extra 2 months or b) disregard the request completely as the request is "manifestly unfounded and excessive".
Ok, a couple of issues with all of that.
1) I submitted a very specific SAR on the 13th Feb 2019 and gave them their permitted 30 days to respond
2) They sent me a disc with the info within 5 days
3) I contacted them again on the 20th Feb 2019 and informed them that there was quite obviously a lot of information missing, I even told them specifically what documents were missing and questioned whether it was a deliberate omission
4) They sent another disc that had a little more info but still hadn't addressed the omissions
5) I reported this to the ICO who subsequently wrote to them on the 13th May and told them to comply with their legal obligations or, if they felt that they had, to contact me and explain in detail how they had complied. Failure to do so and the ICO would consider exercising their own powers.
6) The 2nd disc did reveal a couple of incriminating documents which were subsequently added to the evidence bundle
7) Their legal team contacted the Court to tell them how they had fully complied and that the Company was satisfied that they had supplied everything that they had.
Then suddenly here we are, 7 months later and the GDPR team tell me that there are nearly 6000 emails. The whole thing is just becoming laughable.
Si
Ok, a couple of issues with all of that.
1) I submitted a very specific SAR on the 13th Feb 2019 and gave them their permitted 30 days to respond
2) They sent me a disc with the info within 5 days
3) I contacted them again on the 20th Feb 2019 and informed them that there was quite obviously a lot of information missing, I even told them specifically what documents were missing and questioned whether it was a deliberate omission
4) They sent another disc that had a little more info but still hadn't addressed the omissions
5) I reported this to the ICO who subsequently wrote to them on the 13th May and told them to comply with their legal obligations or, if they felt that they had, to contact me and explain in detail how they had complied. Failure to do so and the ICO would consider exercising their own powers.
6) The 2nd disc did reveal a couple of incriminating documents which were subsequently added to the evidence bundle
7) Their legal team contacted the Court to tell them how they had fully complied and that the Company was satisfied that they had supplied everything that they had.
Then suddenly here we are, 7 months later and the GDPR team tell me that there are nearly 6000 emails. The whole thing is just becoming laughable.
Si
Tyre Smoke said:
I too am very surprised they haven't 'paid you to go away'. Surely it would be cheaper even now, to pay you your salary in full up to date rather than put you (and them) through this circus?
I suppose they are hoping that because so many managers and HR staff have left, there is no way to corroborate your 'proof' of their incompetence. And that they 'might' get away with less overall costs.
The proof is there for all to see unfortunately for them. The evidence absolutely supports my case that they treated me differently to others and the only material difference is my disability. As for the ones that have left, they have submitted witness statements that are works of fiction and again, the evidence, in black and white, contradicts their version of events. Their lawyer pretty much admitted discrimination arising from disability at the preliminary hearing as he could not come up with a legitimate reason as to why I was treated as I was.I suppose they are hoping that because so many managers and HR staff have left, there is no way to corroborate your 'proof' of their incompetence. And that they 'might' get away with less overall costs.
The whole thing has just become farcical, the evidence supports my version of events, they have nothing to support their own, ever changing story and come the day of the full merits hearing, it becomes public.
Wow, lots of responses to try and get through, so here goes
From the Company's point of view, they could have simply let him go with no repercussions as he was there less than 12 months. Obviously not the morally right thing to do, but the easiest and cheapest way out for them. Wow! They really dropped the ball there.Absolutely spot on. They would have been quite within their rights to start the process of managing me out of the business on the basis of medical capability as soon as they thought that this could be a prolonged illness. They could have started following their own process of holding wellbeing meetings every 4 weeks, obtaining medical information and an occupational health report (they'd already received signed consent forms to do so from me). However, they chose not to do so, they chose not to follow their normal procedure but to cut off all contact with me from the day that I informed them of my eventual diagnosis in July 2017. There is a 'long term absence' tracker that shows 11 other people on long term absence within the same time frame, the only person who had not been dealt with was me and the only material difference was the fact that I had a condition automatically qualifying as a disability.
Exactly, they could have followed their policy and dismissed me on the grounds of medical capability. As I say, they chose not to do that and by July 2017 there was the added complication that I had been diagnosed with MS. That, in itself, would still not necessarily have prevented them from dismissing me on the grounds of medical capability. They do have to follow a 'fair' and 'reasonable' process though. They didn't even follow their own processes and have just lied, threatened, attempted to intimidate and generally just try to steamroller me. Their choice, this is the route that they chose to go down. None of the evidence supports their ever changing version of events, we'll see what's what at the full merits hearing.
Sir Bagalot said:
Just read this. Wow, wow and wow.
WTAF are they doing?
Indeed! I've asked myself the same thing multiple timesWTAF are they doing?
elanfan said:
OP without being specific what industry/sector is this?
How long were you there? We’re you a member of a union? We’re you a member of their pension scheme? You might find that you were entitled to I’ll health early retirement with a possibility that they might have to credit you with many years service or possibly enough for full pension.
Someone I know had 6 years left until retirement date but unbeknown to them the pension scheme allowed employees to stay on to 65 giving the possibility of a 45/60ths pension rather than 40/60ths. They got 11 years credit and an instant pension on more than they would have got had they worked to ‘normal’ retirement date at 60.
Whilst I fully appreciate you want to show them up for what they are the best outcome for you is a settlement or full pension or both! I think you’ve done very well dealing with this yourself however there will be little twists and turns and aspects of the law you will not be aware of. I can highly recommend an Employment Lawyer that hates bullies and does PH rates too. I suspect if you lawyer up he might get this settled for you. PM me
Yes I was a member of their pension scheme but I cannot find any particular reference to any provision for early health retirement. I'm afraid that my current income is such that even pistonheads rates would be beyond my means but thanks for the offer. How long were you there? We’re you a member of a union? We’re you a member of their pension scheme? You might find that you were entitled to I’ll health early retirement with a possibility that they might have to credit you with many years service or possibly enough for full pension.
Someone I know had 6 years left until retirement date but unbeknown to them the pension scheme allowed employees to stay on to 65 giving the possibility of a 45/60ths pension rather than 40/60ths. They got 11 years credit and an instant pension on more than they would have got had they worked to ‘normal’ retirement date at 60.
Whilst I fully appreciate you want to show them up for what they are the best outcome for you is a settlement or full pension or both! I think you’ve done very well dealing with this yourself however there will be little twists and turns and aspects of the law you will not be aware of. I can highly recommend an Employment Lawyer that hates bullies and does PH rates too. I suspect if you lawyer up he might get this settled for you. PM me
Kermit power said:
This reads like a film script!!!
If this happened to me, I suspect I'd respond in exactly the same way. For all that it might not help my health to engage in the fight, I suspect it would damage my mental health even more to know I'd let them ride roughshod over me.
Best of luck in getting a satisfactory outcome.
Thanks, stress, without a doubt exacerbates MS but I don't see that as a reason to allow them to behave in the manner in which they have.If this happened to me, I suspect I'd respond in exactly the same way. For all that it might not help my health to engage in the fight, I suspect it would damage my mental health even more to know I'd let them ride roughshod over me.
Best of luck in getting a satisfactory outcome.
hutchst said:
Have I misunderstood this, or did you only work for this company for 6 months Chukka?
I guess that depends on how you look at it, my employment started in Aug 2016, I suddenly became ill in Mar 2017 but wasn't dismissed until Aug 2018Tyre Smoke said:
hutchst said:
Have I misunderstood this, or did you only work for this company for 6 months Chukka?
Now you mention it, it does look like that.From the Company's point of view, they could have simply let him go with no repercussions as he was there less than 12 months. Obviously not the morally right thing to do, but the easiest and cheapest way out for them. Wow! They really dropped the ball there.
Thesprucegoose said:
Is this a crusade case, as surely all the money you get, what a few thousand, which you might have to take to court again to enforce, won't be actually worth all the ex
Legal costs.
I hate how big companies work, but were is the line, they employ people to work a certain amount of hours, they wouldn't exist without hours being put in?
I talk from experience as I have a long-term health issue that has effected by roles but can't afford to have time off.
Yes, I guess you could call it a crusade case, I cannot influence how they chose to deal with me but it may make them think twice about how they deal with the next person who finds themselves, through no fault of their own, in this position. The Company is a multi-billion pound International Company, the evidence shows that they planned to replace me almost immediately but weren't actually able to recruit somebody into my position until Oct 2017. They were therefor not holding a position open for me and were not paying me. They did eventually re-engage with me (after 7 months of silence) and did hold a wellbeing meeting 8 months after it was proposed (company policy is every 4 weeks) the 2nd wellbeing meeting didn't take place for a further 19 weeks. They did eventually arrange an occupational health meeting (15 months after my absence began and 12 months after acknowledging receipt of my consent form. They eventually dismissed me in Aug 2018, 17 months after my absence began and did so without considering alternative employment, without considering any 'reasonable adjustments' and without obtaining any up to date medical information. All of which they have admitted.Legal costs.
I hate how big companies work, but were is the line, they employ people to work a certain amount of hours, they wouldn't exist without hours being put in?
I talk from experience as I have a long-term health issue that has effected by roles but can't afford to have time off.
prand said:
Tyre Smoke said:
they could have simply let him go with no repercussions as he was there less than 12 months.
Not true - if a company has even a vague company policy or contract wording about sick leave, disabilities, disciplinary procedure or notice period, and they try and sling an employee out on their ear contrary to that "policy", they can be found at fault. Breadvan72 said:
This sounds like a classic case of litigating on principle. Crusade? Oh dear.
I may of course be wrong, but if I were the OP I would not be quite as breezily confident as he appears to be . The very fact that the OP is looking for detailed advice and in effect validation on a car forum, and apparently has not taken any insured expert advice may itself tell us something. Anyway, good luck OP. Ah’m oot.
My use of the word "crusade" was very much tongue in cheek. My apparent confidence "breezy" or otherwise is due to the fact that the original post was posted in July 2018, we are now 15 months down the line. I have, of course, taken other advice but due to my illness, have no income as such and therefor cannot afford to pay a solicitor to handle this for me. I don't apologise for being positive, there has been enough negativity following my illness and subsequent diagnosis. I do not hold the Company responsible for my illness but I do hold them responsible for what followed. They discriminated against me and by doing so broke the law, that is the basis for my case. The principle, that they've just acted appallingly, is secondary.I may of course be wrong, but if I were the OP I would not be quite as breezily confident as he appears to be . The very fact that the OP is looking for detailed advice and in effect validation on a car forum, and apparently has not taken any insured expert advice may itself tell us something. Anyway, good luck OP. Ah’m oot.
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