Bomber Command fliers in their own words
Discussion
From experience of speaking to WW2 veterans, very few express much regret for what they did. If they have any regrets at all they are chiefly in respect of the fact that they lost so many of their friends - and the fact that those friends never got the chance to lead the long lives they themselves have lived.
So, if you hear a veteran being quoted about his regrets over those who died as a result of his actions against "the enemy", it just doesn't ring true and does smack of their answers being twisted and manipulated to suit the interviewer's agenda.
Of course there is no provable evidence that this is what happened. We are totally at the mercy of the reporter's article. However, one can draw conclusions based on one's own experiences of talking to those who fought.
So, if you hear a veteran being quoted about his regrets over those who died as a result of his actions against "the enemy", it just doesn't ring true and does smack of their answers being twisted and manipulated to suit the interviewer's agenda.
Of course there is no provable evidence that this is what happened. We are totally at the mercy of the reporter's article. However, one can draw conclusions based on one's own experiences of talking to those who fought.
el stovey said:
Simpo I think you need to research a bit into Bomber Command and Churchill's relationship with them.
Churchill distanced himself from Bomber command and their contribution to the war. He even omitted them completely from his VE day speech.
Bomber command weren't betrayed by modern apologists they were betrayed by Churchill and other political figures after the war.
Churchill did distance himself from bomber command later on during the war, probably because an advisor/aide pointed out it might not look too good post war to of supported area bombing. He was a politician after all. He had given Harris his full support previously.Churchill distanced himself from Bomber command and their contribution to the war. He even omitted them completely from his VE day speech.
Bomber command weren't betrayed by modern apologists they were betrayed by Churchill and other political figures after the war.
I think its easy to criticise, but they were desperate times.
Pre-war bombers were seen as powerful weapons (remember Baldwins "The bomber will always get through").
Had Nazi Germany had a stronger bomber force I'm sure they would of done more damage to the uk.
I think its pretty pointless to started proclaiming rights and wrongs of events during a war, at the end of the day its all wrong, surely?. A fighter pilot shot down during 1940, a soldier cut down by machine gun on d-day, cargo ships sunk by submarine, a grenade thrown into an occupied building, a shell exploding on a tank, bombs dropping on an airfield, Katyn, Oradour Sur Glane.. people killed other people in all these ways and many others too and we're raised to believe its wrong. War decreases respect for human kind however you look at it.
Bedazzled said:
I think Allied military planners knew full well the war was won by late '44, the Germans were defeated despite Harris' dogged late-war bombing tactics not because of them. In my view if we'd continued bombing military and industrial targets we could have ended it sooner and with fewer casualties.
The late-war fire-storms were quickly glossed over after the war (hence no memorial) so politicians of the day obviously were aware that area bombing civilians on a massive scale was unpalatable. According to Wiki, pictures from the atomic bombs were censored for years because they feared the public would associate them with the holocaust.
Bomber Command did an important job destroying industrial targets, and bombing Berlin actually diverted their attacks away from our own airbases. At the time it was necessary to hide behind the cloak of darkness and area-bomb, but later on I think the American daylight raids were more effective, accompanied by their 'little friends' in Mustangs.
That's just my personal opinion. Regardless, the surviving aircrew deserve nothing but respect for their incredible bravery, and the memorial is well overdue.
WW2 against the ~Germans may have been won, but there was a certain tension building with the Soviets. S the tail end of WW2 was really the start of the Cold War, or atleast an attempt to win the peace.The late-war fire-storms were quickly glossed over after the war (hence no memorial) so politicians of the day obviously were aware that area bombing civilians on a massive scale was unpalatable. According to Wiki, pictures from the atomic bombs were censored for years because they feared the public would associate them with the holocaust.
Bomber Command did an important job destroying industrial targets, and bombing Berlin actually diverted their attacks away from our own airbases. At the time it was necessary to hide behind the cloak of darkness and area-bomb, but later on I think the American daylight raids were more effective, accompanied by their 'little friends' in Mustangs.
That's just my personal opinion. Regardless, the surviving aircrew deserve nothing but respect for their incredible bravery, and the memorial is well overdue.
Also if a bunch of British Lads working as a team under great pressure couldn't find some fun then they really aren't British are they?
SamHH said:
Simpo Two said:
You omitted option 3: Intelligent deduction.
So you have no evidence?You could use the same argument to discredit any quotation: "That's not what I think that person should have said, so they must have been coerced into saying it."
Read Eric's replies, because he puts it very well.
Edited by Simpo Two on Sunday 1st July 18:01
Simpo Two said:
Bedazzled said:
the allies killing 250,000 civilians indiscriminately with a nuclear bomb was one of the worst moments in history. But I wonder how many lives it may have saved as a cold-war deterrent
More directly, how many US lives it saved by not having to invade mainland Japan. That was their main aim - and the Japanese had proven they would fight to the death rather than surrender. So yes, if you have a new wonder weapon, you get on and use it.His reasoning being that, as part of Tiger Force planned to invade the Japanese home islands, "I'd have been dead alongside many of my mates - those b
ds didn't give up ground easily; we'd have been happy if the Yanks dropped a few more just to speed the end up"RIP Nobby Clarke, and those in Bomber Command (including my Great Uncle, tail gunner killed in his Lancaster).
The bomb was an option that Japan provided by the way they fought. They wanted to make the US and its allies pay a high price and try to get away with a lot, such as no war crime tribunals and all or most territory gained to be kept. The US and allies in fighting across the Pacific found out what was awaiting them on an opposed landing on Japan home soil. The butchers bill would far outnumber the bombs effects. At that moment in time you have to think in that moment not by todays standards.
jmorgan said:
The bomb was an option that Japan provided by the way they fought. They wanted to make the US and its allies pay a high price and try to get away with a lot, such as no war crime tribunals and all or most territory gained to be kept. The US and allies in fighting across the Pacific found out what was awaiting them on an opposed landing on Japan home soil. The butchers bill would far outnumber the bombs effects. At that moment in time you have to think in that moment not by todays standards.
I know it's off topic, but having been to Hiroshima the one thing that struck me more than any other was how both targets were chosed for their value as 'experiments'. The official papers spoke of the geography of both cities and how they felt they were the best places to bomb to learn about the effects. It's something that will stick with me for a long time to come.As for the 'glory' or 'horror' of war. I think it's very easy to look back on times with the benefit of hindsight and forget what the situation was like. I'm currently sat in Warsaw (and have learnt about the uprising and ghetto) and have taken a day to go to Auschwitz. When you try and comprehend the situation Europe was in, to be honest I think the question of rules and treaties is so far removed from valid it's unreal.
theboyfold said:
I'm currently sat in Warsaw (and have learnt about the uprising and ghetto) and have taken a day to go to Auschwitz. When you try and comprehend the situation Europe was in, to be honest I think the question of rules and treaties is so far removed from valid it's unreal.
500,000 people died in Warsaw I believe - from German bombing and disease. Puts 20,000 at 'the other place' into perspective. As you say, normal rules don't apply.With regards to nuclear weapons, one of the first conversations I heard and remember on the subject was between my Father and Grandfather.
At the time Dad was in the RAF serving on a front line station in Western Germany so which is fairly likely to have been nuclear capable (mid-late '70's). grandfather had been in Burma during WWII and towards the end of the war was being prepared for an attack on one of the Japanese Islands.
My father's POV was that nuclear weapons were not good, Granddad's view was they were. At the end of the discussion my grandfather said to him, well son if it wasn't for nuclear weapons you probably wouldn't be here to dislike them so much.
I know it's not a complete arguement, and the victor will always write the history, but that discussion was my first foray into adult discussion (although just as a passive listener) and has stuck with me ever since.
At the time Dad was in the RAF serving on a front line station in Western Germany so which is fairly likely to have been nuclear capable (mid-late '70's). grandfather had been in Burma during WWII and towards the end of the war was being prepared for an attack on one of the Japanese Islands.
My father's POV was that nuclear weapons were not good, Granddad's view was they were. At the end of the discussion my grandfather said to him, well son if it wasn't for nuclear weapons you probably wouldn't be here to dislike them so much.
I know it's not a complete arguement, and the victor will always write the history, but that discussion was my first foray into adult discussion (although just as a passive listener) and has stuck with me ever since.
Interesting thread, beautiful monument.
My dad was a Lancaster Bomb aimer in Bomber Command1944/45. He was just a lad of 17 years old.
He doesn't talk much about it to be honest but he has a keen interest in collecting RAF and WWII books and artwork, he seems fascinated and constantly interested in understanding and learning as much as possible of that period, fairly typical of many of his generation in that respect from my experience.
I do know he is realistically pragmatic about Bomber Commands role and the perception and view some British people have of those involved. And I can say with absolute certainty he feels no guilt or shame.
He has a very close German friend who was a very successful ME109 pilot in WWII, when I have been in both their company, I have been privately humbled as it is clear that my dad visibly respects and is in total admiration of this German Gent......Truly a band of brothers.
I'm glad to say my dad is still alive today. I'm immensely proud of him, he wouldn't understand it.
My dad was a Lancaster Bomb aimer in Bomber Command1944/45. He was just a lad of 17 years old.
He doesn't talk much about it to be honest but he has a keen interest in collecting RAF and WWII books and artwork, he seems fascinated and constantly interested in understanding and learning as much as possible of that period, fairly typical of many of his generation in that respect from my experience.
I do know he is realistically pragmatic about Bomber Commands role and the perception and view some British people have of those involved. And I can say with absolute certainty he feels no guilt or shame.
He has a very close German friend who was a very successful ME109 pilot in WWII, when I have been in both their company, I have been privately humbled as it is clear that my dad visibly respects and is in total admiration of this German Gent......Truly a band of brothers.
I'm glad to say my dad is still alive today. I'm immensely proud of him, he wouldn't understand it.
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I posted on another thread some time ago, showing pictures of my first wife's father who was a pilot on Lancaster (some way down page 2) He took part in 17 raids over Germany and I chatted to him about his time during the war while he was alive. He said he was obviously frightened, that the towns burning were awsome (in the old sense of the word) and that he lost many friends. Basically he felt lucky to be alive. He went on to fly Canberas which were sometimes armed so had views on Nuclear wepons too and he felt they had maintained peace during the 50s.
I posted on another thread some time ago, showing pictures of my first wife's father who was a pilot on Lancaster (some way down page 2) He took part in 17 raids over Germany and I chatted to him about his time during the war while he was alive. He said he was obviously frightened, that the towns burning were awsome (in the old sense of the word) and that he lost many friends. Basically he felt lucky to be alive. He went on to fly Canberas which were sometimes armed so had views on Nuclear wepons too and he felt they had maintained peace during the 50s.
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