Post amazingly cool pictures of aircraft (Volume 3)

[aeropilot]

tdm34 said:

DodgyGeezer said:

Heinkel HE111Z

One of many utterly odd contraptions the Germans came up with.
It flew quite well by all accounts though, although it must have been odd crew wise, with some crew in one fuselage and the others in the other one, and with presumably only intercomm connection between them.

[GliderRider]

aeropilot said:

tdm34 said:

DodgyGeezer said:

Heinkel HE111Z

One of many utterly odd contraptions the Germans came up with.
It flew quite well by all accounts though, although it must have been odd crew wise, with some crew in one fuselage and the others in the other one, and with presumably only intercomm connection between them.

It does seem odd how the Germans pursued some designs such as the Heinkel He177, relentlessly despite their fundamental faults, produced aircraft such as this He111Z which don't look ideal for the job, yet let others such as seemingly ideal four-engined & four propellered Me264 slip by the wayside. Purportedly, this was to allow Messerchmitt to focus on Bf109 production.
Maybe the He111Z came about simply because the tooling and supply chains for the He111 were already in place and proven?

[aeropilot]

GliderRider said:

aeropilot said:

tdm34 said:

DodgyGeezer said:

Heinkel HE111Z

One of many utterly odd contraptions the Germans came up with.
It flew quite well by all accounts though, although it must have been odd crew wise, with some crew in one fuselage and the others in the other one, and with presumably only intercomm connection between them.

It does seem odd how the Germans pursued some designs such as the Heinkel He177, relentlessly despite their fundamental faults, produced aircraft such as this He111Z which don't look ideal for the job, yet let others such as seemingly ideal four-engined & four propellered Me264 slip by the wayside. Purportedly, this was to allow Messerchmitt to focus on Bf109 production.
Maybe the He111Z came about simply because the tooling and supply chains for the He111 were already in place and proven?

The He111Z was thrown together purely because it was the quickest way of using existing tooling and production to get something that could be a glider tug for the Me321 Gigant glider, which had been designed with great fanfare, and then someone pointed out that they didn't have anything powerful enough to tow the ruddy thing off the ground.......

Even then, the He111Z still couldn't tow a fully laden 321 off the ground.

The other things you mention are purely down to the madness of Nazi politics (luckily enough for the ROW at the time) rather than engineering decisions.

[DodgyGeezer]

aeropilot said:

GliderRider said:

aeropilot said:

tdm34 said:

DodgyGeezer said:

Heinkel HE111Z

One of many utterly odd contraptions the Germans came up with.
It flew quite well by all accounts though, although it must have been odd crew wise, with some crew in one fuselage and the others in the other one, and with presumably only intercomm connection between them.

It does seem odd how the Germans pursued some designs such as the Heinkel He177, relentlessly despite their fundamental faults, produced aircraft such as this He111Z which don't look ideal for the job, yet let others such as seemingly ideal four-engined & four propellered Me264 slip by the wayside. Purportedly, this was to allow Messerchmitt to focus on Bf109 production.
Maybe the He111Z came about simply because the tooling and supply chains for the He111 were already in place and proven?

The He111Z was thrown together purely because it was the quickest way of using existing tooling and production to get something that could be a glider tug for the Me321 Gigant glider, which had been designed with great fanfare, and then someone pointed out that they didn't have anything powerful enough to tow the ruddy thing off the ground.......

Even then, the He111Z still couldn't tow a fully laden 321 off the ground.

The other things you mention are purely down to the madness of Nazi politics (luckily enough for the ROW at the time) rather than engineering decisions.

IIRC several other issues WRT bomber design in the 3rd Reich was the insistence that a bomber be capable of use as a dive-bomber

[aeropilot]

DodgyGeezer said:

aeropilot said:

GliderRider said:

aeropilot said:

tdm34 said:

DodgyGeezer said:

Heinkel HE111Z

One of many utterly odd contraptions the Germans came up with.
It flew quite well by all accounts though, although it must have been odd crew wise, with some crew in one fuselage and the others in the other one, and with presumably only intercomm connection between them.

It does seem odd how the Germans pursued some designs such as the Heinkel He177, relentlessly despite their fundamental faults, produced aircraft such as this He111Z which don't look ideal for the job, yet let others such as seemingly ideal four-engined & four propellered Me264 slip by the wayside. Purportedly, this was to allow Messerchmitt to focus on Bf109 production.
Maybe the He111Z came about simply because the tooling and supply chains for the He111 were already in place and proven?

The He111Z was thrown together purely because it was the quickest way of using existing tooling and production to get something that could be a glider tug for the Me321 Gigant glider, which had been designed with great fanfare, and then someone pointed out that they didn't have anything powerful enough to tow the ruddy thing off the ground.......

Even then, the He111Z still couldn't tow a fully laden 321 off the ground.

The other things you mention are purely down to the madness of Nazi politics (luckily enough for the ROW at the time) rather than engineering decisions.

IIRC several other issues WRT bomber design in the 3rd Reich was the insistence that a bomber be capable of use as a dive-bomber

That's partly why the He177 was such a diaster.......the Nazi regime were fixated on dive bombers, as part of the whole Blitzkrieg type system, and no more than twin engine designs, which is why the lunacy of making the He177 a twin prop dive bomber - rather than a strategic four engine design (a bit like Chadwick did turning the useless Manchester into the Lancaster) meant it never caused the Allies any real problem.
Although, after 1943, their bigger problem was fuel for what they had anyway.

[Yertis]

aeropilot said:

That's partly why the He177 was such a diaster.......the Nazi regime were fixated on dive bombers, as part of the whole Blitzkrieg type system, and no more than twin engine designs, which is why the lunacy of making the He177 a twin prop dive bomber - rather than a strategic four engine design (a bit like Chadwick did turning the useless Manchester into the Lancaster) meant it never caused the Allies any real problem.
Although, after 1943, their bigger problem was fuel for what they had anyway.

Following the Manchester > Lancaster example, had Jerry got their act together the He274 would probably have been a very effective aircraft. It certainly looks impressive.

[Eric Mc]

GliderRider said:

It does seem odd how the Germans pursued some designs such as the Heinkel He177, relentlessly despite their fundamental faults, produced aircraft such as this He111Z which don't look ideal for the job, yet let others such as seemingly ideal four-engined & four propellered Me264 slip by the wayside. Purportedly, this was to allow Messerchmitt to focus on Bf109 production.
Maybe the He111Z came about simply because the tooling and supply chains for the He111 were already in place and proven?

Because the Nazi government was fundamentally mad and riven with internal rifts and conflicts. Poor or no control was exercised over great swathes of German industry.

[DodgyGeezer]

Eric Mc said:

GliderRider said:

It does seem odd how the Germans pursued some designs such as the Heinkel He177, relentlessly despite their fundamental faults, produced aircraft such as this He111Z which don't look ideal for the job, yet let others such as seemingly ideal four-engined & four propellered Me264 slip by the wayside. Purportedly, this was to allow Messerchmitt to focus on Bf109 production.
Maybe the He111Z came about simply because the tooling and supply chains for the He111 were already in place and proven?

Because the Nazi government was fundamentally mad and riven with internal rifts and conflicts. Poor or no control was exercised over great swathes of German industry.

indeed. The amount of in-fighting to get the XYZ into production over the ZYX is quite staggering. In fairness, it really wouldn't have mattered in the end (and having alternative designs in-case something doesn't work out <cough>ME210 </cough> isn't a bad idea) but by all accounts it went way deeper, to the point it seriously affected production and design

[Eric Mc]

Yes - the whole regime was built on the assumption that internal conflict produced a more efficient way of doing things. It was a kind of dumb interpertation of Darwin's "survival of the fittest" theory.

[aeropilot]

Eric Mc said:

Yes - the whole regime was built on the assumption that internal conflict produced a more efficient way of doing things. It was a kind of dumb interpertation of Darwin's "survival of the fittest" theory.

It was because Hitler regarded capitalism as being jewish, and just as bad a communism, so he replaced both with some sort of barstardised amalgamation of both that was neither one nor the other, with an added heavy sprinkling of cronyism into the mix.

[Yertis]

We still managed to make some poor procurement decisions. IMO we should have developed the Whirlwind for the close-support role and kept the Typhoon in development until the Tempest was ready. The Whirlwind's engines are cited as the reason for its early retirement yet by the time it was withdrawn those problems were pretty much fixed (I know it was to do with manufacturing considerations too). The Typhoon had sketchy engine reliability and a host of other problems, for no real advantage over the Whirlwind. Signed, a Typhoon enthusiast.

[Eric Mc]

If you read up on the Whirlwind you will see that there were multiple reasons why the project was not proceeded with.

Essentially, the Air Ministry was trying to rationalise the types of aircraft and engines that would be needed for the war effort. They were not keen on both the airframe and engine manufacturers getting bogged down on too many projects which would have diluted production efforts on types and engines that had already undergone substantial development before the war started. This was the opposite of the situation in Germany where virtually any and every project - no matter how mad or hare-brained it might be - usually found some "champion" in the Nazi heirarchy to promote their pet project.

As far as the Whirlwind is concerned, the Air Ministry was very sceptical about Westland's ability to handle large production numbers. They were already struggling to meet the demand for the Lysander. There was also a general lack of confidence in the workforce available to Westland in the West Country. It was felt (rightly) that the trades and skills needed for mass production of aircraft and engines was really in the Midlands. That is why the mega-factory at Castle Bromwich was built.

The Peregrine was not that troublesome an engine. However, Rolls Royce were told by the Air MInistry that they neeed to drop it so that they could concentrate on developing the Merlin, Griffon and Vulture. The Vulture turned out to be a bit of a dud so that was axed too. The Whilwind's main technical problem was its propellers, which became less efficient at altitude due to compressibility issues in thin air - something not really understood at the time it was being designed. That's why it ended up being more useful at lower altitudes.

Of course the Air MInistry made mistakes but by and large on the big calls they got it right - unlike the RLM (Reichsluftfahrtministerium) which was all over the shop in its procurement policy.

[aeropilot]

Yertis said:

We still managed to make some poor procurement decisions. IMO we should have developed the Whirlwind for the close-support role and kept the Typhoon in development until the Tempest was ready. The Whirlwind's engines are cited as the reason for its early retirement yet by the time it was withdrawn those problems were pretty much fixed (I know it was to do with manufacturing considerations too)

Now that would have been a poor procurement decision.

Canning the Peregrine was very much the right procurement decision, although the RAF initially rejected the idea when it was put to them by RR.

[Yertis]

Eric Mc said:

If you read up on the Whirlwind you will see that there were multiple reasons why the project was not proceeded with.

Essentially, the Air Ministry was trying to rationalise the types of aircraft and engines that would be needed for the war effort. They were not keen on both the airframe and engine manufacturers getting bogged down on too many projects which would have diluted production efforts on types and engines that had already undergone substantial development before the war started. This was the opposite of the situation in Germany where virtually any and every project - no matter how mad or hare-brained it might be - usually found some "champion" in the Nazi heirarchy to promote their pet project.

As far as the Whirlwind is concerned, the Air Ministry was very sceptical about Westland's ability to handle large production numbers. They were already struggling to meet the demand for the Lysander. There was also a general lack of confidence in the workforce available to Westland in the West Country. It was felt (rightly) that the trades and skills needed for mass production of aircraft and engines was really in the Midlands. That is why the mega-factory at Castle Bromwich was built.

The Peregrine was not that troublesome an engine. However, Rolls Royce were told by the Air MInistry that they neeed to drop it so that they could concentrate on developing the Merlin, Griffon and Vulture. The Vulture turned out to be a bit of a dud so that was axed too. The Whilwind's main technical problem was its propellers, which became less efficient at altitude due to compressibility issues in thin air - something not really understood at the time it was being designed. That's why it ended up being more useful at lower altitudes.

Of course the Air MInistry made mistakes but by and large on the big calls they got it right - unlike the RLM (Reichsluftfahrtministerium) which was all over the shop in its procurement policy.

I'm sure all of that is true, although I could argue that the Whirlwind manufacture could be subcontracted, like the Typhoon was (to Gloster IIRC). I stand by my assertion that the Whirlwind was a potentially better platform than the Typhoon for the close support role, regardless of the logistical arguments against it. What advantage – performance wise – did the Typhoon hold over the Whirlwind?

BTW I'm not trolling, and I do understand the reasons the Whirlwind was canned, but I'm still not sure the decision was correct (despite Aeropilot's response )

[Eric Mc]

It's hard to predict the future. The Whirlwind had an insurmountable problem in that it didn't perform well in its intended role (high altitude, cannon armed fighter). The Typhoon, with its massive Napier Sabre seemed to offer a better alternative - and it only had one engine, not two, another point in its favour, it seemed. Also, the Sabre was a Napier project, so wasn't holding up Rolls Royce production of Merlins and Griffons.

As it turned out, the Sabre itself proved very problematic and the Typhoon also suffered at altitude. However, by then the decsions had been made and the RAF was stuck with the Typhoon - even though the Whirlwind MIGHT have performed as well if persisted with.
I also think that they never relished having to deal with Westland's chied designer, Teddy Petter. By all accounts he was a "difficult" guy to work with.

The Air MInistry was trying to balance all the requirements needed to win the war in the air and the bomber war whilst not impeding production and development of types lready in service and not falling behind the enemy technically. It was a tough balancing act.

[aeropilot]

Eric Mc said:

However, Rolls Royce were told by the Air MInistry that they neeed to drop it so that they could concentrate on developing the Merlin, Griffon and Vulture.

I thought it was RR that initially wanted to drop the Peregrine, but the RAF dismissed the idea, and I think then RR went over the RAF's head and to the AM.

AM then made the correct decision.

AM could have taken the decision to sub-contract out Peregrine production to elsewhere, but there wasn't many elsewhere's that could have done it.
Wolseley could have been an option as they still had an aero engine division until just a few years before the war, but Nuffield wasn't very happy with dealing with the bureaucracy at the AM, and pulled the plug on the aero engine division, and choose to only deal with the War Dept and the Admiralty instead.

The reason the Whirlwind was better at low altitudes was the shear lack of grunt from the small Peregrine at higher altitudes, and there was no further scope for its development, as it was already as far as it could be taken, and the aircraft was designed around the engine, so it really made no sense at all to continue with it.
Canning it was actually one of the better procurement decisions made during WW2, not one of the worst.

[Eric Mc]

I agree.

The Whirlwind was a bit ahead of its time in some ways but it made sense to drop it.

[aeropilot]

Eric Mc said:

As far as the Whirlwind is concerned, the Air Ministry was very sceptical about Westland's ability to handle large production numbers. They were already struggling to meet the demand for the Lysander. There was also a general lack of confidence in the workforce available to Westland in the West Country. It was felt (rightly) that the trades and skills needed for mass production of aircraft and engines was really in the Midlands. That is why the mega-factory at Castle Bromwich was built.

Its rather ironic, that Bristol had already set up a shadow factory down in Weston Super Mare to build the Beaufighter without issue, although, to be fair WSM isn't that far from Bristol's industrial centre, so easier for them to overlap news skills with existing not too far from source (unlike Westlands more remote location at Yeovil) and yet, post WW2, this shadow factory would become the site for Bristol Helicopters, which would later get taken over by Westlands....

[Yertis]

Eric Mc said:

I also think that they never relished having to deal with Westland's chief designer, Teddy Petter. By all accounts he was a "difficult" guy to work with.

We often overlook that aspect of things. Petter was genius – his track record was amazing – but like you say – difficult. He'd probably be diagnosed with some syndrome or other nowadays.

[DodgyGeezer]